A Major New Study of Religion in the US Has the following to Say About Mormons:

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

So by that reckoning Paul regards earth to be heaven? Not true!

Thanks for the fun and games but I see the futility of this discussion with you as you are not open to the Truth.

Please understand, this is a Catholic Forum after all.

 

[JHow]

I would take a Catholic’s word for how a Catholic would be treated if he left the church.

I’m not sure we accept that anyone really leaves. I think we hold open the hope that they might return, even if at the last moment.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Like I said, Paul says there are three heavens, and we agree. Heaven is a place of salvation, not damnation, regardless of which “heaven” you go to.

“The Third Heaven” is a term used in ancient Jewish cosmologies to denote the highest heaven where God resides as compared to the atmospheric heaven and the stellar heaven (cf. 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6, 6:18; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 148:4. It is not to be taken literally. In 2 Corinthians 12:2 a vision.is described in which Paul experienced the highest bliss of heaven, which he described as “the third heaven.” It is not a literal description of the cosmos. ]“I know a man” is a reference to Paul himself.

Sources: * Reading the Corinthian Correspondence*, Kevin Quast, Paulist Press, New York, 1994; and the footnote to 2 Corinthians 1-12, in the RSV.

Jim Dandy

 

[zerinus]

Two of our dearest friends up here are Mormon. They’re a lovely and wonderful couple. When we first met them, and were in the “getting to know you” phase of friendship, we knew them only as “in charge” of the local Scout group. They were very honest and forthright about their religion. Basically they said, “We’re Mormon, but do not press our beliefs on the children about anything but family values and that grown men are to be the strong in their faith and to have the skills necessary to lead a family before having one. Is that okay with you?” I smiled and said yes and we moved on.

Since then, the high placement of family values have actually been a HUGE factor in bringing my husband home to the Catholic faith. A conversation with the husband is precisely what motivated the switch for him. The husband is very honest about how important God and Christ are in his life coming from a Catholic and Mormon upbringing. He’s been a wonderful influence on both my son and my husband by showing strength in faith.

Honestly, we don’t know many Catholics in our area yet, but I can say that when it comes to what we place as important in our family (faith, God, family first, etc) we see eye to eye on the “big picture” and just don’t go into the “Mormon differences”.

For me, it’s enough for my child to see a loving family that supports each other, uplifts each other, and cares for each other. Those are rare enough these days - no matter what church you attend.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for your kind words about the Mormons.

 

[zerinus]

Thanks for the fun and games but I see the futility of this discussion with you as you are not open to the Truth.

Please understand, this is a Catholic Forum after all.

No fun and games. You gave me an interpretation of Paul which I disagree with, and told you why. Not sure what the “forum” has to do with it.

 

[zerinus]

“The Third Heaven” is a term used in ancient Jewish cosmologies to denote the highest heaven where God resides as compared to the atmospheric heaven and the stellar heaven (cf. 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6, 6:18; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 148:4. It is not to be taken literally. In 2 Corinthians 12:2 a vision.is described in which Paul experienced the highest bliss of heaven, which he described as “the third heaven.” It is not a literal description of the cosmos. ]“I know a man” is a reference to Paul himself.

Sources: * Reading the Corinthian Correspondence*, Kevin Quast, Paulist Press, New York, 1994; and the footnote to 2 Corinthians 1-12, in the RSV.

Jim Dandy

You are quoting the words of some commentary or other, and taking for granted that it is correct. I simply disagree.

 

[zerinus]

I’m not sure we accept that anyone really leaves. I think we hold open the hope that they might return, even if at the last moment.

I am sure Mormons would feel the same way about those who leave their Church.

 

[mark_a]

• Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
• Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
• Mormons are unusually giving.
• Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
• Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”—Sources: [1 (http://www.amazon.com/American-Grace-Religion-Divides-Unites/dp/1416566716), [2 (http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons).

I see that as a very positive assessment. It also suggests that Mormons are a very optimistic group. What do you think?

I don’t personnally know any practicing Mormons, but even the non-practicing, fallen-away, cultural Mormons seem to fit the list above (where applicable).

however,

among the most devout

among those most likely to keep their childhood faith

unusually giving

relatively friendly

among the most likely to believe

“Among”, “unusually”, and “relatively” are kinda tough to hang my hat on.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You are quoting the words of some commentary or other, and taking for granted that it is correct. I simply disagree.

This is exactly what it has to do with being a Catholic Forum.

You refuse Catholic answers, then why post on a Catholic Forum?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

unusually", and “relatively” are kinda tough to hang my hat on.

Not only that, they seem awfully vague words to have come from a truly scientific study.

I see from the sources that the study is from a book. I wonder if it is a peer reviewed study.

 

[zerinus]

This is exactly what it has to do with being a Catholic Forum.

You refuse Catholic answers, then why post on a Catholic Forum?

It looks like you have misunderstood the purpose of the forum. It is stated to be “Comparing and contrasting beliefs”. The “question” you are answering is not a question I had asked, and not one I need an answer to. It arose because someone criticized this aspect of Mormon belief, to which I responded. I already have the correct answer to that question. I don’t need any “Catholic” answers to it.

 

[zerinus]

“Among”, “unusually”, and “relatively” are kinda tough to hang my hat on.

It is a study that presumably compares many different religions, so its conclusions are going to be relative. I haven’t read it, so I don’t know what it says about Catholicism. It may put Catholicism higher in the league, or lower, I wouldn’t know. Somebody would have to go and read it to find out. But judging by the other report, It seems to put Mormonism in a very favorable position.

 

[campeador]

Third Heaven (wiki link) :

Old Testament

References to distinct concepts known as “Heaven” (Heb. Shamayim) occur in the very earliest books of the Old Testament.[1] The first use of the word heaven, in Genesis 1:8 and 20 refers to the atmosphere over the earth in which birds fly. The second, mentioned in Genesis 1:14, is the setting for the celestial lights, later identified (Genesis 1:16) as the sun, moon and stars.

A third concept of Heaven, also called shamayi h’shamayim (ם‎שמי‎ה‎ שמי: the “Heaven of Heavens”) is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 28:12, Deuteronomy 10:14 and 1 Kings 8:27 as a distinctly spiritual realm containing (or being traveled by) angels and God Himself.[3]

Due to the ambiguity of the term “Heaven” as it is used in the Old Testament books, and the fact that the word in Hebrew, shamayim, (ם‎שמי‎) is plural, a number of interpretations have been offered for various texts involving its nature, notably the assumption of the prophet Elijah.

 

[mlund]

No fun and games. You gave me an interpretation of Paul which I disagree with, and told you why.

You didn’t give him any sort of rational rebuttal, sadly. It comes across as being deliberately obtuse.

• Marty Lund

 

[JHow]

It is a study that presumably compares many different religions, so its conclusions are going to be relative. I haven’t read it, so I don’t know what it says about Catholicism. It may put Catholicism higher in the league, or lower, I wouldn’t know. Somebody would have to go and read it to find out. But judging by the other report, It seems to put Mormonism in a very favorable position.

“Relatively” just implies that Mormons as a group compared to other groups will have a mean score on some question higher (or lower) than the other groups - it’s just an indication of direction. The overall score for everybody may be low, however, Mormons just being “relatively” higher.

“Substantially” likely means that the degree of difference is large, possibly statistically significant at a high confidence interval.

“Among the highest” probably means that one or two other groups may have a similar high score, but the author has chosen to not to report on them (quite possibly because they are small sample sizes).

I don’t see anything particulary sinister or necessarily vague in this language. I see no reason to suspect the orginal survey has not been accurately described.

 

[campeador]

Heaven in the Old Testament (wiki link) :

Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky.

“Shamayim” is a crucial concept in the Bible. There are at least three different shamayim or “heavens” in the bible: 1) The atmosphere where birds fly and clouds wander above the earth; 2) The heaven where the celestial bodies wander (wandering stars = planets) and stars reside; 3) The heaven where God and “the hosts of heaven” reside (Psalm 90:4; 2Peter 3:8; Isaiah 57:15), also called “paradise,” the “heaven of heavens,” or in Hebrew shamayi h’shamayim (ם‎שמי‎ה‎ שמי) in scripture (cf. Deut 10:14; 1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6, 6:18; Neh 9:6).

In the New Testament the apostle Paul speaks of his experience of the third heaven: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven (Gk. “ουρανός”) - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows - and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.” (2 Corinthians 12:2-6, ESV)

 

[zerinus]

“Relatively” just implies that Mormons as a group compared to other groups will have a mean score on some question higher (or lower) than the other groups - it’s just an indication of direction. The overall score for everybody may be low, however, Mormons just being “relatively” higher.

“Substantially” likely means that the degree of difference is large, possibly statistically significant at a high confidence interval.

“Among the highest” probably means that one or two other groups may have a similar high score, but the author has chosen to not to report on them (quite possibly because they are small sample sizes).

I don’t see anything particulary sinister or necessarily vague in this language. I see no reason to suspect the orginal survey has not been accurately described.

Neither do I. I thought you did!

 

[zerinus]

You didn’t give him any sort of rational rebuttal, sadly. It comes across as being deliberately obtuse.

• Marty Lund

I didn’t think he was interested in a rebuttal. He says, “this is the Catholic answer, take it or lump it!” Nobody with that kind of attitude is interested in a rebuttal.

 

[mark_a]

It is a study that presumably compares many different religions, so its conclusions are going to be relative. I haven’t read it, so I don’t know what it says about Catholicism. It may put Catholicism higher in the league, or lower, I wouldn’t know. Somebody would have to go and read it to find out. But judging by the other report, It seems to put Mormonism in a very favorable position.

With all the seemingly anti-Mormon “discussion” here on this site, I find it rare that anyone here objects to the moral behavior of present day Mormons.

Which, for my money, even outweighs the whole “apostacy of the early Church” thing y’all have going on.

Best wishes.

 

[LongJourney]

Mark,

We have a problem with discussing Mormon ethics, and are discussing it on other boards. Because Joseph Smith was “martyred” for thumbing his nose at the freedom of the press, the Mormon hierarchy has a tendency to believe that they have a God-given right to control communications. Take a look at the story of “Korihor” in the Book of Mormon. Therefore, any discussion we might have about Mormon “ethics” would be soundly contested by Mormon participants on this board. The sad truth of it is that because of this control of information, the great majority of members of the LDS church are totally naive to these issues, and are naturally offended when they are brought up.

Secrecy of church financial records, requirement of paying exorbitant tithes for full membership, shunning of those who have rejected Mormonism, to the point of unemployability, discrimination against non-members of certain ethnicities and ancestries, coverups of child abuse, misrepresentation of their religion by missionaries…