Z
zerinus
Guest
It actually says third heaven.
A Major New Study of Religion in the US Has the following to Say About Mormons:
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J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
That’s the problem with private interpretation of Scripture, practiced by all Protestants and non-Catholics – you (or your authority) decide for yourself what is meant by the words of Scripture and assert it as “truth.” Paul was not describing the cosmos. He was using language poetically, describing a vision. Christians have never believed there were three literal heavens. It’s the difference between believing original Christianity as taught by the Apostles and your own version of ‘truth.’
The Catholic Church rejected all writings that did not conform to her teachings from the canon of the New Testament. If any interpretation does not comport with the teaching of the Church, it’s the wrong interpretation. Therefore, all Protestant and non-Catholic ecclesial communities are wrong.
Peace,
Jim Dandy
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
But God is a spirit (John 4:24). He is omnipresent (present everywhere at once). There is no place where God is not. Spirits do not take up space. Speaking of the ‘residence’ of a spirit is idiomatic. St. Paul’s language is poetic, not meant to be taken literally.
Your concept of ‘celestial, terrestrial, and telestial’ bodies is not Christian, neither is the Mormom concept of God as an ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones. That’s always the rub. Mormonism is not Christian, but uses Christian language and terms to present itself as Christian.
Jim Dandy
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justme
Guest
Jim,
That is part of the problem. You can not fault a mormon with holding non-christian beliefs because mormons are not christians.
They do not hold to the very basic tenants of Christianity that all Christians hold to.
Just for example, they believe that God the Father has a body and a heavenly wife. They do not believe in the Trinity as Christians do.
There are many more differences.
So any dialogue with a mormon is inter-religious dialogue rather than an ecumenical dialogue (as we would have with other Christians).
L
lax16
Guest
But I have another source of information that the middle-man does not have, and that is the modern revelation and scriptures of the LDS Church. Okay, you are going to tell me that you don’t believe that; but I do; and know it is true! The middle-man’s opinion may be persuasive to you, but it ain’t to me, because I happen to know better!
How do you know it is true?
Did you receive the scriptures or did someone translate them for you using seer stones?
Wouldn’t your modern day prophets be considered to be middle men? Or are you talking directly to God and receiving relevation?
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
The commentators have the advantage of knowing the original ancient languages, the cultural mileau that existed at the time in question, the belief and practices of the Jewish people, their literature (extra-biblical as well as biblical), how they used language, their idioms, and their history. They know what the people meant, not just the words they used. These commentators are educated professionals.
A member of the Catholic Church wrote a letter about the year 58 of the first Christian century in ancient, obsolete Koine Greek. You read the letter 21 centuries later and assume you know better than the Church does about what it means? Hmmmm. You call the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church’s understanding of her own letter erroneous? tsk tsk
Jim Dandy
Z
zerinus
Guest
By the power of the Holy Ghost.
How do you know it is true?
If you are referring to the Book of Mormon, it was translated by Joseph Smith, by the gift and power of God.
Modern day prophets are like the old day prophets, they speak the words that God wants them to speak to the people of this generation, as they did to theirs.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Right on, justme. But Mormons insist that they are Christian in spite of their abberant beliefs.
They call their three separate Gods the “Trinity”-- Heavenly Father, who is flesh and bones and was formerly a man like us, his spirit child Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit – because “they are united in purpose.”
Jesus and Satan are brothers, spirit children of the same Heavenly Father, who is merely an ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones and other body parts necessary for having spirit children with his goddess wives. All Mormon men are told they will be just like God the Heavenly Father and rule over their own world if they obey the rules and give 10% of their gross income (as verified by their 'bishop) to the LDS church. All Mormon women may become goddess wives only if their husband becomes a God. Hence, the requirement that they be “sealed.”
They baptize, hold a communion service of water and bread, claim to be the only true Christian church, and teach that the Catholic Church became ‘apostate’ at the end of the first century when the last apostle died, and Joseph Smith, their founder, was visited personally by Jesus and told to “restore” his church. Insisting that they are Christian makes them unique among cults. Their promise that one can become a God or goddess lures many to accept it as true. They’re excellent, well-trained salesmen. They are sincere in their beliefs, but sincerely wrong. My only complaint is not that they hold these beliefs, but that they call them Christian.
Jim Dandy
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
How do you know it is true?
Z
zerinus
Guest
You were told wrong.
How do you know it is true?
Lax, Mr. Z answered that he knows “by the power of the Holy Spirit.”
I was told that the Holy Spirit gives one a “burning in the bosom” as verification of the truth of the Book of Mormon and Mormonism.
Jim Dandy
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
This speaks of each person receiving, to the fullest that they are able, the gifts that God will bestow at the time of the resurrection. I agree with what the bible states here, and I beleive that the authors were inspired to write what they did.
The passage says nothing about barring persons from receiving those gifts if they are not an LDS member with a temple recommend who knows the secret/sacred mysteries learned therein.
It says nothing about separating persons into a three tiered eternity in which persons are segregated based upon whether or not they are a card-carrying mormon. Again, this seems to be you reading much more into the text than what is present.
Peace,
Robert
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
You can call yourself optimistic if you want. But you do not speak for all members of your church. Nor does the LDS Church teach as a matter of doctrine how their members are to feel. My LDS relatives and acquaintances are simply not optimistic people. Good people, yes. Generous people on occasion. But not optimistic. I acknowledge that this is purely anecdotal commentary on my part. But it is also true.
Peace,
Robert
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
But surely, anyone can invoke the Holy Ghost on their beliefs, also by the “gift and power of God.” Why should the Book of Mormon be accepted as anything other than the musings of a misguided human being (sorry, but that is how Christians see him)?
Every sect and cult can use this same reasoning.
Alex
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
This speaks of individuals on the Last Day, and how each will receive their reward according to their sanctity and holiness. It is not speaking about the LDS version of Heaven - and where each will be consigned. Maybe another way to say it is - on the last day those who are saved will be filled with God’s love; some will be like thimbles filled with water; while others will be gallon jars; all will be filled to the brim. It most certainly does NOT say that some will live in thimbles while other will live in gallon jars; or some will live on the sun while others will live on the moon.
Peace,
Robert
Z
zerinus
Guest
Many Mormons do not know their own religion very well. They fail to see the bright side of things. They look at the dire predictions, but fail to see the good times that have been prophesied too. Although dire predictions have been made against the wicked, for the righteous the future is bright and hopeful. I would say Mormonism is an optimistic religion, although all Mormons may not see that at the present time.
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zerinus
Guest
Sounds very unconvincing to me.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Robert,
I never said nor did I imply that it did. However, one does note that Paul when writing about the third heaven wrote that he “heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter”.
I think people will receive what they have deep-down wanted and have shown they wanted by how they lived, how they loved others, how they forgave others, how they allowed for others’ choices without compelling them in any way, how they grew in faith, and how they ultimately allowed the Savior to heal them and to bring them upward spiritually to a point of being cleansed and changed “every whit” so that they really can become like Him. To do that, they would need to be able to be trusted, so that if they did “hear unspeakable words” they would keep the lawful conditions about those words they had heard.
By the way, I suppose you realize that every child who died before the age of eight, all through history, is believed by LDS to go to the Celestial kingdom, where they will receive eternal joy with Christ and with Heavenly Father, though having lived such a short time on earth.
If you have gotten the impression from LDS or from reading about them, that having a temple recommend entitles them to the Celestial kingdom, then they or you have been greatly misinformed. What matters is how they allow Christ to change their heart, and how much faith they learn to have, plus all the other qualities I mentioned above.
Peace to you, also.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
- I have wondered if LDS have any named saints in heaven? If LDS do have saints in heaven, what are their names?
- Also, I would like to know if the LDS have any living members who live their lives as to the likeness of Mother Theresa of Calcutta?
- Who was the author of the OP’s commentary (survey?) of the LDS church?
P
ParkerD
Guest
Gabriel,
- We don’t call them “saints” in the same terminology you use, but it would be “Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the ten apostles besides John who is still on earth, Paul, Matthias, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Noah, Ezekiel, (note: Enoch and Melchizedek were translated and thus are awaiting a time to come back to earth, but will be there when they finish their work)”, among many others including some from Ancient America.
- Yes, indeed. There are many humanitarian service missionaries who go about doing much good, without pay and with love in their hearts, and travel all over the world during their retirement years or as doctors, nurses, or dentists taking time off from their work.
- Robert D. Putnam and David E. Campbell, American Grace: How Religious Divides and Unites Us (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2010).
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
I’m not surprised.
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