A Major New Study of Religion in the US Has the following to Say About Mormons:

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It looks like you have misunderstood the purpose of the forum. It is stated to be “Comparing and contrasting beliefs”. The “question” you are answering is not a question I had asked, and not one I need an answer to. It arose because someone criticized this aspect of Mormon belief, to which I responded. I already have the correct answer to that question. I don’t need any “Catholic” answers to it.

Ok, comparing and contrasting beliefs.

Both myself, Jim, and campeador have provided sources for what we believe the “third heaven” means.

Your reply is “I simply disagree”. That is not discussion.

How about some source for your belief? That would be comparing and contrasting.

 

[mark_a]

the great majority of members of the LDS church are totally naive to these issues.

As am I.

 

[zerinus]

Ok, comparing and contrasting beliefs.

Both myself, Jim, and campeador have provided sources for what we believe the “third heaven” means.

Your reply is “I simply disagree”. That is not discussion.

How about some source for your belief? That would be comparing and contrasting.

The “source” is the Bible itself, and reason. Commentaries are merely somebody’s opinion. They do not constitute a “source”. Ultimately the only reliable source of information we have as to what the Jews believed is the Bible itself. The Commentator has to rely on that source. He is acting as the middle-man between you and the source. I prefer to cut out the middle-man, and to straight to the source. And the source, coupled with reason, tells me that that is an erroneous interpretation, for the reason that I had explained.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The “source” is the Bible itself, and reason. Commentaries are merely somebody’s opinion. They do not constitute a “source”. Ultimately the only reliable source of information we have as to what the Jews believed is the Bible itself. The Commentator has to rely on that source. He is acting as the middle-man between you and the source. I prefer to cut out the middle-man, and to straight to the source. And the source, coupled with reason, tells me that that is an erroneous interpretation, for the reason that I had explained.

And yet the commentaries given are based on reason and the Bible itself.

So tell me again, why your interpretation of this is any more the Truth than mine, especially since mine is formed on what the languages and societies of the time believed.

The only reason you have explained is that you, personally, do not believe it.

Well I personally do not believe your interpretation and hold to the one I gave you.

Again, more waste of time. You are not here to discuss. You do not address any issue raised in the commentaries. You just attempt to blow them off as not being based on reason or the Scriptures.

They are based on the Scriptures and reason more so than your opinion that “I just disagree”. They go to what was believed by the society of the time though the original languages used and what they meant at the time.

Thanks for the time but I will move on now as I do not need to know any more of the Bible according to zerinus.

 

[campeador]

Matthew Henry’s Whole Bible Commentary:
It was certainly a very extraordinary honour done him: in some sense he was caught up into the third heaven, the heaven of the blessed, above the aerial heaven, in which the fowls fly, above the starry heaven, which is adorned with those glorious orbs: it was into the third heaven, where God most eminently manifests his glory.

Scofield Reference Notes:
First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God’s abode.

Wesley’s Notes:
The third heaven - Where God is; far above the aerial and the starry heaven.

Vincent’s Word Studies:
The conception of seven heavens was familiar to the Jews; but according to some of the Rabbins there were two heavens - the visible clouds and the sky; in which case the third heaven would be the invisible region beyond the sky.

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible:
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by רקיע rekia, the firmament or expansion, Genesis 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term שמים shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Genesis 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by רקיע השמים rekia hashshamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the Divine glory, probably expressed by the words שמי השמים shemei hashshamayim, the heavens of heavens.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
This is called the “third” heaven, in respect to the airy and starry heavens. The apostle refers to a distinction among the Jews of , “the supreme heaven, the middle heaven, and the lower heaven”

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:
To the third heaven - The Jews sometimes speak of seven heavens, and Muhammed has borrowed this idea from the Jews. But the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.

(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.

(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

• Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
• Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
• Mormons are unusually giving.
• Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
• Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”—Sources: [1 (http://www.amazon.com/American-Grace-Religion-Divides-Unites/dp/1416566716), [2 (http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons).

I see that as a very positive assessment. It also suggests that Mormons are a very optimistic group. What do you think?

Most of the LDS members I know fit the descriptions described in the survey you quote. However, I would not call them optimistic about anything outside of their religion. Of course, this is just my own experience.

It also does not establish the truth of the LDS faith. Buddists are very nice and accepting people too.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ParkerD]

Matthew Henry’s Whole Bible Commentary:
It was certainly a very extraordinary honour done him: in some sense he was caught up into the third heaven, the heaven of the blessed, above the aerial heaven, in which the fowls fly, above the starry heaven, which is adorned with those glorious orbs: it was into the third heaven, where God most eminently manifests his glory.

Scofield Reference Notes:
First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God’s abode.

Wesley’s Notes:
The third heaven - Where God is; far above the aerial and the starry heaven.

Vincent’s Word Studies:
The conception of seven heavens was familiar to the Jews; but according to some of the Rabbins there were two heavens - the visible clouds and the sky; in which case the third heaven would be the invisible region beyond the sky.

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible:
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by רקיע rekia, the firmament or expansion, Genesis 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term שמים shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Genesis 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by רקיע השמים rekia hashshamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the Divine glory, probably expressed by the words שמי השמים shemei hashshamayim, the heavens of heavens.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
This is called the “third” heaven, in respect to the airy and starry heavens. The apostle refers to a distinction among the Jews of , “the supreme heaven, the middle heaven, and the lower heaven”

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:
To the third heaven - The Jews sometimes speak of seven heavens, and Muhammed has borrowed this idea from the Jews. But the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.

(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.

(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits.

Campeador,
Thanks for the commentaries. I liked Gill’s, Barnes’ and Clarkes’ in that they identify a “supreme heaven” or a “heaven of heavens” which is the “residence of God”.

That would seem to tie to what Paul was describing, although one notes that Paul was talking about “bodies” which to me ties to the LDS understanding that indeed each individual’s resurrected body is going to be a “celestial body” or a “terrestrial body” or a “telestial body” in that their resurrected body will be made up of a restoration based on the thoughts and deeds and repentance of the person during their life on earth and in the spirit world.

 

[ParkerD]

With all the seemingly anti-Mormon “discussion” here on this site, I find it rare that anyone here objects to the moral behavior of present day Mormons.

Which, for my money, even outweighs the whole “apostacy of the early Church” thing y’all have going on.

Best wishes.

Mark A,
Thanks for your comment. It makes a lot of sense, and is a refreshing outlook.

 

[mlund]

I prefer to cut out the middle-man, and to straight to the source.

If you had a rare mastery of Greek and Hebrew as well as Literature, History, and pre-Diaspora Jewish Theology you might have enough knowledge to actually comprehend the “source” at the level that the “middle man” who is peer reviewed and subject to cumulative scrutiny throughout the ages might. Considering you likely read said scripture in something other than Hellenic Greek you’re already relying on “middle men” for accuracy in what you’re reading, making the whole position hypocritical.

And the source, coupled with reason, tells me that that is an erroneous interpretation, for the reason that I had explained.

Sorry, but your argument fails to provide rational basis for choosing your conclusion over those cited and substantiated of rational credibility on any biblical, literary, or historical basis. Saying, “I don’t need no middle-man” to understand the language of a twice-or-thrice translated work of literature (the Epistle) that commonly references or draws from a whole body of even more ancient literature (the old testament) and cultural tradition (pre-diapsora rabbinical Judaism) is just utterly ironic if offered to try establish the legitimacy of a position. It is an utter rejection of the entire concept of scholarship. Perhaps it is even doubly ironic considering how much of a scholar St. Paul was in the first place and how deeply many of his writings draw from his Rabbinical and Hellenic Philosophical scholarship.

• Marty Lund

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So by that reckoning Paul regards earth to be heaven? Not true!

The sky where the birds fly z. Where the angels sing. Where Ezekiel saw the wheel. Where Jesus ascended. It makes more sense that the heavenly caste system imposed on the text by mormonism.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Mark A,
Thanks for your comment. It makes a lot of sense, and is a refreshing outlook.

I have no doubt that most LDS members are sincere in their beliefs, and are working towards their own exhaltation. But they are sincerely wrong. And the 3rd heaven argument I’ve seen presented here by sincere and earnest LDS members is just one more example of how the uniquely LDS doctrines simply fall apart under close scrutiny. It is a classic example of reading what one wants to see back into scripture by disconnecting it from its historical and cultural contexts as well as its interpretation within Christian Sacred Tradition.

The scripture passage is simply no support at all for the LDS conception of a 3-tiered heavenly caste system.

Peace,
Robert

 

[StrawberryJam]

• Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
• Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
• Mormons are unusually giving.
• Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
• Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”—Sources: [1 (http://www.amazon.com/American-Grace-Religion-Divides-Unites/dp/1416566716), [2 (http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons).

I see that as a very positive assessment. It also suggests that Mormons are a very optimistic group. What do you think?

The church in your link, where is it? Can anyone sit wherever they want to?

 

[ParkerD]

I have no doubt that most LDS members are sincere in their beliefs, and are working towards their own exhaltation. But they are sincerely wrong. And the 3rd heaven argument I’ve seen presented here by sincere and earnest LDS members is just one more example of how the uniquely LDS doctrines simply fall apart under close scrutiny. It is a classic example of reading what one wants to see back into scripture by disconnecting it from its historical and cultural contexts as well as its interpretation within Christian Sacred Tradition.

The scripture passage is simply no support at all for the LDS conception of a 3-tiered heavenly caste system.

Peace,
Robert

Robert,
Certainly not a “caste system”. God of course wants the most happiness He can possibly reward to those whom Paul called “children of God”, and will do so regardless of what human term they give to the concept of a “heaven” that is according to their works and faith.

When Paul wrote something to the effect that (1 Cointhians 15 as translated in KJV):

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Then perhaps he knew what he was writing about. I suppose you don’t think that he did.

John wrote as he had seen in vision:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

It is not a “caste system”. It is a system that gives “every man according as his work shall be.”

 

[zerinus]

Matthew Henry’s Whole Bible Commentary:
It was certainly a very extraordinary honour done him: in some sense he was caught up into the third heaven, the heaven of the blessed, above the aerial heaven, in which the fowls fly, above the starry heaven, which is adorned with those glorious orbs: it was into the third heaven, where God most eminently manifests his glory.

Scofield Reference Notes:
First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God’s abode.

Wesley’s Notes:
The third heaven - Where God is; far above the aerial and the starry heaven.

Vincent’s Word Studies:
The conception of seven heavens was familiar to the Jews; but according to some of the Rabbins there were two heavens - the visible clouds and the sky; in which case the third heaven would be the invisible region beyond the sky.

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible:
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by רקיע rekia, the firmament or expansion, Genesis 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term שמים shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Genesis 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by רקיע השמים rekia hashshamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the Divine glory, probably expressed by the words שמי השמים shemei hashshamayim, the heavens of heavens.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
This is called the “third” heaven, in respect to the airy and starry heavens. The apostle refers to a distinction among the Jews of , “the supreme heaven, the middle heaven, and the lower heaven”

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:
To the third heaven - The Jews sometimes speak of seven heavens, and Muhammed has borrowed this idea from the Jews. But the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.

(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.

(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits.

Thank you for the quotes; but I see inconsistencies among them. For example:

Vincent’s Word Studies:
The conception of seven heavens was familiar to the Jews; but according to some of the Rabbins there were two heavens - the visible clouds and the sky; in which case the third heaven would be the invisible region beyond the sky.

There is a lot of guesswork and assumptions going on in there. Or this one:

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible:
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by רקיע rekia, the firmament or expansion, Genesis 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term שמים shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Genesis 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by רקיע השמים rekia hashshamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the Divine glory, probably expressed by the words שמי השמים shemei hashshamayim, the heavens of heavens.

So they are doing a lot of guesswork; and I think that mine is better.

 

[zerinus]

Most of the LDS members I know fit the descriptions described in the survey you quote. However, I would not call them optimistic about anything outside of their religion. Of course, this is just my own experience.

Mormonism is optimistic about the rest of the world too, because of the impact that we believe the Church will eventual have on the rest of the world. Think of Daniels’s prophecy of the kingdom of God prevailing over the kingdoms of the world in the last days.

 

[zerinus]

If you had a rare mastery of Greek and Hebrew as well as Literature, History, and pre-Diaspora Jewish Theology you might have enough knowledge to actually comprehend the “source” at the level that the “middle man” who is peer reviewed and subject to cumulative scrutiny throughout the ages might. Considering you likely read said scripture in something other than Hellenic Greek you’re already relying on “middle men” for accuracy in what you’re reading, making the whole position hypocritical.

But I have another source of information that the middle-man does not have, and that is the modern revelation and scriptures of the LDS Church. Okay, you are going to tell me that you don’t believe that; but I do; and know it is true! The middle-man’s opinion may be persuasive to you, but it ain’t to me, because I happen to know better!

 

[zerinus]

The sky where the birds fly z. Where the angels sing. Where Ezekiel saw the wheel. Where Jesus ascended. It makes more sense that the heavenly caste system imposed on the text by mormonism.

Peace,
Robert

He wasn’t even talking about the “sky”. He was talking about the earth. He said earth = heaven!

 

[zerinus]

I have no doubt that most LDS members are sincere in their beliefs, and are working towards their own exhaltation. But they are sincerely wrong. And the 3rd heaven argument I’ve seen presented here by sincere and earnest LDS members is just one more example of how the uniquely LDS doctrines simply fall apart under close scrutiny. It is a classic example of reading what one wants to see back into scripture by disconnecting it from its historical and cultural contexts as well as its interpretation within Christian Sacred Tradition.

The scripture passage is simply no support at all for the LDS conception of a 3-tiered heavenly caste system.

Peace,
Robert

So how does your commentaries interpret this scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

[zerinus]

The church in your link, where is it? Can anyone sit wherever they want to?

It is the Mormon Church; and yes, you can sit where you like.

Where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? It sits where it likes!

 

[bnapgh]

Not true. Paul says there are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), and Mormons agree. I don’t know about Catholics.

I have yet to read this thread beyond this point but the Pauline citation is where Paul says another was ‘‘snached up to the highest heaven’’. I presume the LDS use this to say if there is a ‘‘highest’’ heaven then there must be ‘‘lower’’ heavens.

Empirical evidence still awaits us but my understandig is that the Hebrew word for ‘‘heaven’’ had multiple uses, including among them (1) God’s home, (2) the stars in the sky; (3) the clouds in the sky. So IMHO Paul uses the superlative ‘‘highest’’ as a lexionic demarcation, not a theological one. The first English analogy that comes comes to mind is ‘‘home’’. The world is my home, the US is my home, Pennsylvania is my home, my house is my home, and my family is my home. Same letters, very different conotation. In Paul’s next verse he uses the singular when he writes: ‘‘was snatched up to Paradise’’, not the ‘‘highest Paradise’’.

God Bless!