A Modest Proposal

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Thank you for your kind words. I too hope for reasoned and clear discussion.

It is true that we may currently disagree on this issue, but let me ask you this question.
Even in a limited Government I’m sure you’ll agree that protection of human beings within it’s borders from murder is an acceptable role.
Do you think it is an acceptable role for the Government to determine who is and is not a human being based, not on science, but on political considerations only?

Peace
James
Please let me respond to your question this way. Regardless of whether or not the government (based on science) determines that the unborn deserve legal protection, there will be many who disagree with this. If the government made all abortions illegal, I suspect there would be ardent pro-choicers who would establish a large underground abortion community. So regardless of whether or not abortion is legal or illegal, abortions would continue to occur. With that in mind, I stand by my position that the way to reduce abortions is to encourage proper behavior and to try to change hearts and minds. This would be done through persuasion (as opposed to government coercion).
 
Please let me respond to your question this way. Regardless of whether or not the government (based on science) determines that the unborn deserve legal protection, there will be many who disagree with this.
Dear Chris,

And what ‘science” might that be? What possible debate can there be as to the point of whether or not a fetus is a “human being”? If any argued otherwise, then it is incumbent upon that person to clarify as to exactly what species he or she belongs. A pig? A dog? A virus? As to whether or not he or she is alive (“being”), that point can’t even be theoretically debated. If the fetus wasn’t alive, then there wouldn’t be an issue.

Therefore, what can any “science” do other than make a completely arbitrary distinction between babies in the womb and those already born? How is that any different than making a distinction between a 1 day old child and a 2 days old child; where the latter is entitled to a right to life but not the former?

Is there any doubt that African slaves in America were human beings? They could breed with white people and produce fertile offspring, which is the very definition of what constitutes a single species. Yet some maintained that blacks were not human. What science was that based upon, Chris?

If you have the slightest doubt that a fetus is not a human being, then please tell me and all what your basis is for such doubts? If you have no such doubts, then please share with me and all any doubt that you might have that unborn children don’t deserve to have a political right to life the same as born children and adults.

Thanks.
 
Dear Chris,

And what ‘science” might that be? What possible debate can there be as to the point of whether or not a fetus is a “human being”? If any argued otherwise, then it is incumbent upon that person to clarify as to exactly what species he or she belongs. A pig? A dog? A virus? As to whether or not he or she is alive (“being”), that point can’t even be theoretically debated. If the fetus wasn’t alive, then there wouldn’t be an issue.

Therefore, what can any “science” do other than make a completely arbitrary distinction between babies in the womb and those already born? How is that any different than making a distinction between a 1 day old child and a 2 days old child; where the latter is entitled to a right to life but not the former?

Is there any doubt that African slaves in America were human beings? They could breed with white people and produce fertile offspring, which is the very definition of what constitutes a single species. Yet some maintained that blacks were not human. What science was that based upon, Chris?

If you have the slightest doubt that a fetus is not a human being, then please tell me and all what your basis is for such doubts? If you have no such doubts, then please share with me and all any doubt that you might have that unborn children don’t deserve to have a political right to life the same as born children and adults.

Thanks.
Don,

Regarding the point of your reply, I never said that I personally disagreed on this. It is apparent, however, that many other people ‘do’ disagree. That is a fact that cannot be denied. And it is with that in mind that I made my earlier points about what I believe are the effective methods of reducing the number of abortions. Our disagreement is not with your most recent post, but in how to achieve the desired result.
 
Please let me respond to your question this way. Regardless of whether or not the government (based on science) determines that the unborn deserve legal protection, there will be many who disagree with this. If the government made all abortions illegal, I suspect there would be ardent pro-choicers who would establish a large underground abortion community. So regardless of whether or not abortion is legal or illegal, abortions would continue to occur. With that in mind, I stand by my position that the way to reduce abortions is to encourage proper behavior and to try to change hearts and minds. This would be done through persuasion (as opposed to government coercion).
What you say about illegal abortions is undoubtedly true, but it is also a poor justification for allowing legal abortion to continue.
I must also say that I am sidappointed with your sidestepping of such a simple and straightforward question about the Role of Government since you were teh wone who brought up the subject.

Now - let me ask you this. Once we have convinced enough (say 65%) of the populations that Abortion is wrong, would you be satisfied to see it outlawed?

Peace
James
 
What you say about illegal abortions is undoubtedly true, but it is also a poor justification for allowing legal abortion to continue.
I must also say that I am sidappointed with your sidestepping of such a simple and straightforward question about the Role of Government since you were teh wone who brought up the subject.

Now - let me ask you this. Once we have convinced enough (say 65%) of the populations that Abortion is wrong, would you be satisfied to see it outlawed?

Peace
James
Since I don’t believe it would have the desired result, I would not.

Here are a few comments by Professor Art Carden that reflect my beliefs on the proper role of government:

*“Calling on government to purify others’ hearts and minds opens Pandora’s box, pushes us farther down a very slippery slope, …”

“If I give a government the power to force you to accept my values, I also give them the power to force me to accept your values at some point in the future. Another way of saying this is that any government with the power to take an atheist’s money and give it to my church is also a government with the power to take my money and give it to Planned Parenthood. When we use force to restrict others’ liberty, we endanger our own.”

“Governments coerce others with a two-edged sword: giving the state the power to do things you like necessarily requires giving the state the power to do things you don’t like, and giving the state the power to restrict behavior of which you don’t approve gives them the power to restrict behavior of which you do approve. The right way to change hearts and minds is not coercion. It is persuasion.”*

As you can see, ‘big government’ worries me. I am sure we’ll continue to disagree on the proper way to reduce abortion. However, I understand where you’re coming from on this issue, and hopefully you understand my position a bit better as well - even if we don’t necessarily see eye to eye.
 
Dear Chris,

And what ‘science” might that be? What possible debate can there be as to the point of whether or not a fetus is a “human being”? If any argued otherwise, then it is incumbent upon that person to clarify as to exactly what species he or she belongs. A pig? A dog? A virus? As to whether or not he or she is alive (“being”), that point can’t even be theoretically debated. If the fetus wasn’t alive, then there wouldn’t be an issue.

Therefore, what can any “science” do other than make a completely arbitrary distinction between babies in the womb and those already born? How is that any different than making a distinction between a 1 day old child and a 2 days old child; where the latter is entitled to a right to life but not the former?

Is there any doubt that African slaves in America were human beings? They could breed with white people and produce fertile offspring, which is the very definition of what constitutes a single species. Yet some maintained that blacks were not human. What science was that based upon, Chris?

If you have the slightest doubt that a fetus is not a human being, then please tell me and all what your basis is for such doubts? If you have no such doubts, then please share with me and all any doubt that you might have that unborn children don’t deserve to have a political right to life the same as born children and adults.

Thanks.
Don,

Regarding the point of your reply, I never said that I personally disagreed on this. It is apparent, however, that many other people ‘do’ disagree. That is a fact that cannot be denied. And it is with that in mind that I made my earlier points about what I believe are the effective methods of reducing the number of abortions. Our disagreement is not with your most recent post, but in how to achieve the desired result.
What do people disagreeing have to do with it being science or not? The science is clear. 46 distinct chromosomes programmed to grow into a _________ with proper nourishment and care, like any other child.
Since I don’t believe it would have the desired result, I would not.

Here are a few comments by Professor Art Carden that reflect my beliefs on the proper role of government:

*“Calling on government to purify others’ hearts and minds opens Pandora’s box, pushes us farther down a very slippery slope, …”

“If I give a government the power to force you to accept my values, I also give them the power to force me to accept your values at some point in the future. Another way of saying this is that any government with the power to take an atheist’s money and give it to my church is also a government with the power to take my money and give it to Planned Parenthood. When we use force to restrict others’ liberty, we endanger our own.”

“Governments coerce others with a two-edged sword: giving the state the power to do things you like necessarily requires giving the state the power to do things you don’t like, and giving the state the power to restrict behavior of which you don’t approve gives them the power to restrict behavior of which you do approve. The right way to change hearts and minds is not coercion. It is persuasion.”*

As you can see, ‘big government’ worries me. I am sure we’ll continue to disagree on the proper way to reduce abortion. However, I understand where you’re coming from on this issue, and hopefully you understand my position a bit better as well - even if we don’t necessarily see eye to eye.
Big government we already have too much of. The ‘values’ argument though is very weak. Yes, a majority of people need to understand and believe in a law in order for it to be effective and the power of law in general not to be weakened due to disrespect of the law, but most laws reflect values!! We have laws against murder, rape, theft, etc. Who argues that the government is forcing their values on people then? It’s only the laws you don’t like that you cry foul for.

Obama has already far outspent Bush with his ‘necessary’ stimuluses. The results are speaking for themselves. Oh, and please don’t include ‘jobs saved’ in the results, because that’s a number out of thin air if I’ve ever heard one!
 
What do people disagreeing have to do with it being science or not? The science is clear. 46 distinct chromosomes programmed to grow into a _________ with proper nourishment and care, like any other child.

Big government we already have too much of. The ‘values’ argument though is very weak. Yes, a majority of people need to understand and believe in a law in order for it to be effective and the power of law in general not to be weakened due to disrespect of the law, but most laws reflect values!! We have laws against murder, rape, theft, etc. Who argues that the government is forcing their values on people then? It’s only the laws you don’t like that you cry foul for.

Obama has already far outspent Bush with his ‘necessary’ stimuluses. The results are speaking for themselves. Oh, and please don’t include ‘jobs saved’ in the results, because that’s a number out of thin air if I’ve ever heard one!
Murder, rape, theft, etc. are laws that 99.9% of the polulation agrees with. Laws regarding ‘life’ issues are not. What if Jesse Jackson was President, and there were 9 Hillary Clinton clones on the Supreme Court. The ‘values’ of the government would be far different that the values you and I hold dear, and I would not want their values imposed on me.

Regarding your second paragraph, both Bush AND Obama have massively overspent. I voted for neither.
 
Since I don’t believe it would have the desired result, I would not.

Here are a few comments by Professor Art Carden that reflect my beliefs on the proper role of government:

*“Calling on government to purify others’ hearts and minds opens Pandora’s box, pushes us farther down a very slippery slope, …”

“If I give a government the power to force you to accept my values, I also give them the power to force me to accept your values at some point in the future. Another way of saying this is that any government with the power to take an atheist’s money and give it to my church is also a government with the power to take my money and give it to Planned Parenthood. When we use force to restrict others’ liberty, we endanger our own.”

“Governments coerce others with a two-edged sword: giving the state the power to do things you like necessarily requires giving the state the power to do things you don’t like, and giving the state the power to restrict behavior of which you don’t approve gives them the power to restrict behavior of which you do approve. The right way to change hearts and minds is not coercion. It is persuasion.”*

As you can see, ‘big government’ worries me. I am sure we’ll continue to disagree on the proper way to reduce abortion. However, I understand where you’re coming from on this issue, and hopefully you understand my position a bit better as well - even if we don’t necessarily see eye to eye.
Such arguments fial at their very source. The point of government is to protect it’s citizens. To do that requires the controlling of certain aspects of life and how we interact. The question is not whether the government should control behaviour but how.

The government already sets standards for our behavior and forces the citizens to accept it regardless of the cultural or ethnic roots of the individuals. Take as an example the siuation in Florida where a Muslim woman was refused a driver’s licence because she would not remove here veil. That is just a small example.
The criteria for justifiable homicide is also very different in other countries. What is considered justifiable there is considered a “revenge” killing here, or maybe a “crime of passion” and is procecuted. These people, in coming here are forced to accept “our” cultural (and thus legal) view of things.

Overall though I see you as confusing “big government” with the reasonable protection of it’s citizens. The Child in the womb is an innocent human life. And that is true regardless of how the child is conceived. The Child has done nothing deserving death. The Child IS human and therefore the Child deserves protection under existing laws against murder.

Peace
James
 
Don,

Regarding the point of your reply, I never said that I personally disagreed on this. It is apparent, however, that many other people ‘do’ disagree. That is a fact that cannot be denied. And it is with that in mind that I made my earlier points about what I believe are the effective methods of reducing the number of abortions. Our disagreement is not with your most recent post, but in how to achieve the desired result.
I disagree that it is undeniable. 😃

No one truly disagrees that abortion is murder. People really lie about it is the problem.

EVERYONE with an ounce of common sense knows that a fetus is a human baby. They just throw up the ridiculous argument that if its not fully formed and not viable then its not human since everyone knows all humans can care for themselves - really a projection of our own cultural “rugged individualism” into the argument. Yet these are the same people who will turn right around and demand that Government “take care of us” by giving free contraceptives and “womb to the tomb” social care like we are all infants. :rolleyes:

This is all about creating endless filibusters to avoid having to confront their consciences. The truth is no one wants to solve this problem except the Catholic Church. The pro-death agenda is to tie up the public debate in endless rhetoric so no policy change ever happens and hope we get tired of the issue and just go away.

James
 
Don,

Regarding the point of your reply, I never said that I personally disagreed on this. It is apparent, however, that many other people ‘do’ disagree. That is a fact that cannot be denied. And it is with that in mind that I made my earlier points about what I believe are the effective methods of reducing the number of abortions. Our disagreement is not with your most recent post, but in how to achieve the desired result.
But they don’t really disagree. They simply don’t care and see nothing wrong with murdering human beings, the same as the Romans saw nothing wrong with exposing infants with disabilities on mountaintops to die. If they really did disagree, then they would be capable of presenting some sort of coherent argument. It used be “viability,” but since that has been radically reduced since Roe, they have largely seemed to abandon that rationalization.

We have the absurd situation where there have been cases within a single hospital when one team of medical personnel have struggled to save the life a prematurely delivered infant, while at the same time another “terminates” the life of a perfectly healthy fetus the very same age.

We are not discussing here whether we should attempt to impose our values regarding, for example, the practice of homosexuality upon nonbelievers. *One can be an atheist *and feel the same way as we do about abortion. In fact, there are a few such individuals that I have read about. And herein lies the critical point, Chris. *This is not an issue that *is dependent upon religious opinion. If the government can arbitrarily take one class of humans and maintain that this class has no protection under the law in regard to life, then what purpose does a government serve except as an agency of tyranny?

Since our government is permitting and protecting the legalized murder of human beings, as I noted on another thread, the only reason why I oppose taking up arms against the government is because we would have no chance of prevailing. Therefore, it would not meet St. Thomas Aquinas’s definition of a just war. In this day and age, in a country such as the U.S., I don’t believe guerilla bands could be organized while escaping the detection of the federal authorities. They would crush such in its incipient stages. Modern surveillance equipment and techniques are simply too sophisticated. It would be impossible to organize to the point of viability.

As for out-and-out terrorism, which Collins so successfully employed in Ireland during the War of Independence (if any are interested, see my flash short story “The Altar Boy” wwwdnschneidercom.xbuild.com/#/on-writing-page-10/4533091089 ), like my prootagonist within the piece, I have moral qualms about such tactics. There is no honor in bushwhacking people; it is as dishonorable to do what was done to Tiller as what he had been doing. And here too, even if such terror could be elevated far beyond what it has heretofore been, the government (even under Bush let alone Obama) would resort to increasing levels of counterterrorism, possibly even culminating in the imposition of martial law. It would not capitulate.

So what *do *I advocate? Like you, changing the hearts of people. We start within our own Church by purging Her of all who will not pledge to only vote for pro-life politicians, regardless of political affiliation. We let all others know in no uncertain terms that just as the prophet/apostle Paul admonished us that we will shun the wicked man. Once we are free of these make believe Catholics, we will grow again and when people see that we are once again a serious religion, people will flock to us in droves. We must lead by example.
 
I disagree that it is undeniable. 😃

No one truly disagrees that abortion is murder. People really lie about it is the problem.

EVERYONE with an ounce of common sense knows that a fetus is a human baby. They just throw up the ridiculous argument that if its not fully formed and not viable then its not human since everyone knows all humans can care for themselves - really a projection of our own cultural “rugged individualism” into the argument. Yet these are the same people who will turn right around and demand that Government “take care of us” by giving free contraceptives and “womb to the tomb” social care like we are all infants. :rolleyes:

This is all about creating endless filibusters to avoid having to confront their consciences. The truth is no one wants to solve this problem except the Catholic Church. The pro-death agenda is to tie up the public debate in endless rhetoric so no policy change ever happens and hope we get tired of the issue and just go away.

James
I have never asked the government for ‘womb to the tomb’ social care. Being consistent in my principles, I don’t believe that is a proper use of government.
 
But they don’t really disagree. They simply don’t care and see nothing wrong with murdering human beings, the same as the Romans saw nothing wrong with exposing infants with disabilities on mountaintops to die. If they really did disagree, then they would be capable of presenting some sort of coherent argument. It used be “viability,” but since that has been radically reduced since Roe, they have largely seemed to abandon that rationalization.

We have the absurd situation where there have been cases within a single hospital when one team of medical personnel have struggled to save the life a prematurely delivered infant, while at the same time another “terminates” the life of a perfectly healthy fetus the very same age.

We are not discussing here whether we should attempt to impose our values regarding, for example, the practice of homosexuality upon nonbelievers. *One can be an atheist *and feel the same way as we do about abortion. In fact, there are a few such individuals that I have read about. And herein lies the critical point, Chris. *This is not an issue that *is dependent upon religious opinion. If the government can arbitrarily take one class of humans and maintain that this class has no protection under the law in regard to life, then what purpose does a government serve except as an agency of tyranny?

Since our government is permitting and protecting the legalized murder of human beings, as I noted on another thread, the only reason why I oppose taking up arms against the government is because we would have no chance of prevailing. Therefore, it would not meet St. Thomas Aquinas’s definition of a just war. In this day and age, in a country such as the U.S., I don’t believe guerilla bands could be organized while escaping the detection of the federal authorities. They would crush such in its incipient stages. Modern surveillance equipment and techniques are simply too sophisticated. It would be impossible to organize to the point of viability.

As for out-and-out terrorism, which Collins so successfully employed in Ireland during the War of Independence (if any are interested, see my flash short story “The Altar Boy” wwwdnschneidercom.xbuild.com/#/on-writing-page-10/4533091089 ), like my prootagonist within the piece, I have moral qualms about such tactics. There is no honor in bushwhacking people; it is as dishonorable to do what was done to Tiller as what he had been doing. And here too, even if such terror could be elevated far beyond what it has heretofore been, the government (even under Bush let alone Obama) would resort to increasing levels of counterterrorism, possibly even culminating in the imposition of martial law. It would not capitualte.

So what *do *I advocate? Like you, changing the hearts of people. We start within our own Church by purging Her of all who will not pledge to only vote for pro-life politicians, regardless of political affiliation. We let all others know in no uncertain terms that just as the prophet/apostle Paul admonished us that we will shun the wicked man. Once we are free of these make believe Catholics, we will grow again and when people see that we are once again a serious religion, people will flock to us in droves. We must lead by example.
Wow. So if you could organize an army you would go to war with the government??? Don, your mindset is frightening. Your words and reasoning sound similar to those from the person who murdered Dr. Tiller.

This is my last post in this thread. I am politely bowing out of this conversation.
 
Wow. So if you could organize an army you would go to war with the government??? Don, your mindset is frightening. Your words and reasoning sound similar to those from the person who murdered Dr. Tiller.

This is my last post in this thread. I am politely bowing out of this conversation.
To all:

Since Chris has elected to bow out of this discussion while misrepresenting my views, I want to clarify that I do not advocate taking up arms against the government. In fact, I said just the opposite. It would not be moral because we have no chance of winning. It would be shedding blood for no useful purpose which is as evil as what abortionists are doing. I stand by the teachings of my Church on this issue.

Furthermore, in regard to Tiller, I also stated that I believe what was done to him was as dishonorable as what he had been doing. I know some within the pro-life movement disagree with me here. I reject terror tactics and, therefore, in tandem with my first paragraph, the use of any sort of violence to advance the pro-life cause.

What I do advocate is exactly what I say in conclusion. We must start with reforming our own Church, which is what my OP was about.
 
To all:

After the murder of Dr. Tiller, I heard a news commentator on television say that a woman from Planned Parenthood asked him that if those opposed to abortion really believed that abortion is murder, then why don’t they take up arms to stop it? This was what prompted my remarks to Chris.

Yes, we really do believe it is murder, so I gave the only reason we need in reply. It is not moral to take up arms for the reason I gave. I say it is the “only reason” because it is the only one I need to counter her argument. If I thought about it, there might be others, but this one alone is sufficient.

But this is a religious forum, not a political one. Therefore, I look for a moral reason to counter her implication that we are insincere or hypocritical. Therefore, I invoke our Angelic Doctor.
 
WOW.
I don’t know quite how this thread got so far afield that “taking up arms” came up but hopefully we can get back to the root of the OP. It wouldn’t surprise me to see this thread closed soon if we can’t get back on track.
The question was and still is what should be done about Catholics in office who are advocating positions that are directly contrary to Church teaching. It is obvious that they cannot be removed from office since they are only exersizing their free choice rights and their offices are secular, not religious. However, there is nothing that would prevent the leadership of their religious affiliation (The Catholic Church) from taking firm action against them within the religious community. Such action would not violate any right they have under the consitution, it would simply be an action taken within the community.
Of course regardless of whether the action was taken “privately” or not wouldn’t matter as such action would undoubtedly become public rather quickly.

Of course the real and most substansive action that we can all take right now is to vote pro-life, and to picket, and contribute to those causes that promote Pro-life stances. We really need to change hearts - At least enough to sway congress and the supreme court.

Peace
James
 
Dear James,

“I don’t know quite know how this thread got so far afield that “taking up arms” came up but hopefully we can get back to the root of the OP.”

As I explained in my subsequent post, I heard a news commentator on television remark that a woman official from Planned Parenthood asked him that if the pro-life movement really believed abortion is murder, then why they don’t take up arms. Her implication (and I believe the commentator’s) was clear: We don’t really believe it is murder; or else we are acting in an insincere and hypercritical manner. I linked to an article here previously by William Saletan of Slate who makes the very same point.

I explained within my remarks why taking up arms would be immoral in accordance with Aquinas’s just war teaching. Therefore, it is not even necessary to consider the point from any other perspective. Thus, my rejoinder to such critics. What is odd is that by voicing such criticism, *they *seem to be acknowledging the propriety of revolting in such a scenario. Additionally, in his memoirs, President Grant states that (a reference to the Civil War) those who feel oppressed have the right to revolt, but if their revolution fails they must be prepared to bear the consequences. I’m a great admirer of President Grant and do not lightly dismiss his counsel; thus I caution extremist elements within the pro-life camp.

I then went further and condemned the out-and-out terror tactics some have employed such as murdering abortion personnel. I hold that walking up to some unarmed, unsuspecting person totally unprepared to defend himself or herself, and shooting him or her to be dishonorable and craven. These were the tactics that Michael Collins employed during the Irish Struggle for Independence. If any take just five minutes to read my short story “The Altar Boy,” my feelings on such tactics will be clear, regardless of the justice of a cause.

Therefore, I am in agreement with your views and would only add that we should bring to bear more pressure upon Church leaders to actually begin to act *in accordance with their *own teachings and show that our patience as the laity in bearing their blatant hypocrisy is not limitless. There are many peaceful and just measures we can take in that direction.
 
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