A more lay Church?
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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M
Micosil
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The confusion here is that it is extraordinary ministers of HC that can do this (alongside the actual minister, see following), but the minister of the Eucharist as a Sacrament is the priest, as he is the one who confects it.
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Avila123
Guest
It is happening in our Diocese. We have short courses for catechists and a few scholarships. The scholarships can only be taken at Maryvale (run by nuns) and study is part time - the highest qualification is a Degree. Not all of our priests have the charism of teaching and the Bishop is trying to support the lay catechists to grow and develop. Our Spiritual Directors are a mix of religious and lay people (all have gone through a program and are registered with the Diocese).
Our Bishop also recognised people were becoming burned out by doing too much, being ill-equipped and in the wrong ministries. We now run the Called and Gifted Workshop where lay people are helped to discern what their potential charisms are and how they can be used to support the Church. There is so much going on behind the scenes as the Bishop has been encouraging the laity to blossom (under the guidance of priests). In some ways it is fragile and our Pastoral Area efforts are gradually being undermined by one inward looking powerful Parish Council. Just from my experience, we have charisms which should be used, but we need the Church to guide us to use them properly i.e. to build up the Church.
I am not sure if this is where you hoped the discussion would go.
Brendan,
we are only playing with words. An extraordinary minister is an extraordinary minister.
I am reminded of Humpty Dumpty.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
(Lewis Carroll "Through the Looking Glass).
we are only playing with words. An extraordinary minister is an extraordinary minister.
I am reminded of Humpty Dumpty.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
(Lewis Carroll "Through the Looking Glass).
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bardegaulois
Guest
I believe that you’re ignoring two things here, Noel. First of all, the growing part of the Church in the Western world and that from which the balance of vocations are coming is from among those who regularly celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass. In these communities, there are no EMHCs, communion services are unheard of, and the general ethos is that of the Church before the personnel crisis. From my experience, that’s where the faithful are flocking, not somewhere where they can take on more and more quasi-clerical duties.
Secondly, even though the raw numbers of religious have declined, nearly all the vocations are going into more pious and motivated communities, many of which have active apostolates. Moreover, the venerable older orders of the Church are taking steps to move closer to their founder’s intentions, which often are not clerical. Insofar as education and other pastoral and evangelical work among the faithful are concerned, I find it interesting that your seem to slight a potential role for them, particularly as consecrated life is ever dynamic and evolving within the Church.
I can only speak for myself when I say that given the choice between simply worshipping among my lay neighbours, many of whom are not particularly well formed, or frequenting the company of priests and religious who were extensively formed (not just academically, but personally) into a particular relationship with Christ and with the Church, I would choose the latter. Increasing numbers of Westerners are turning their backs on the former (which has an aroma of Protestantism about it) for this.
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TimothyH
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A “more lay church” is the way the early Church was.
The idea of rising through the ranks was borrowed from the Roman military. The Christians focused on vocation - what God called you to do - rather than rising up through a hierarchical system. Paul addressed this directly when he spoke of different spiritual gifts but one Body.
One thing that will and has helped is a robust diaconate.
The idea of rising through the ranks was borrowed from the Roman military. The Christians focused on vocation - what God called you to do - rather than rising up through a hierarchical system. Paul addressed this directly when he spoke of different spiritual gifts but one Body.
One thing that will and has helped is a robust diaconate.
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Brendan
Guest
I agree, but they are not ministers of the Sacrament. That is only a validly ordained priest or bishop.
A minister of a sacrament is the one who confects the Sacrament, who calls it into being.
The only one who can confect the Eucharist is one who is in Sacerdotal Orders.
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Brendan
Guest
No wordplay, simply the teaching of the Church. Minister of Holy Communion and a Minister of the Eucharist are two distinct ministries ( hence why they have different names). One can be done by a lay person, one cannot.
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ProVobis
Guest
And then in turn men who would otherwise be inclined to enter the seminary will see more laity taking over and be discouraged from moving on to ordination? I see a vicious cycle here. Either that or a self-fulfilling prophecy.
TimothyH
you wrote “One thing that will and has helped is a robust diaconate.”
I am very much against the permanent diaconate. It will lower the status of lay people, especially women in the Church. At present the tasks done by deacons can be done by the laity. The rules prohibiting the marriage of deacons and female deacons illustrate the anti-women and anti-sex bias of the Church.
Permanent deacons will remove the use of the laity in the ministry of reading and Holy Communion.
In a diocese in Ireland it was proposed by the bishop to have deacons, but due to the outcry of the people the plan was shelved. Vox populi, Vox Dei.
you wrote “One thing that will and has helped is a robust diaconate.”
I am very much against the permanent diaconate. It will lower the status of lay people, especially women in the Church. At present the tasks done by deacons can be done by the laity. The rules prohibiting the marriage of deacons and female deacons illustrate the anti-women and anti-sex bias of the Church.
Permanent deacons will remove the use of the laity in the ministry of reading and Holy Communion.
In a diocese in Ireland it was proposed by the bishop to have deacons, but due to the outcry of the people the plan was shelved. Vox populi, Vox Dei.
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Micosil
Guest
In the Latin Rite, deacons can officiate marriage ceremonies as well as funerals. I don’t think lay people can do this. They can also proclaim the Gospels at Mass. Can lay people do that?
Erm, deacons can certainly be married before ordination and in extraordinary circumstances, after ordination, they can also be granted permission to remarry if they become a widower and they have young children. As far as women deacons, that’s a topic for another thread, but you really do need to do your homework here. I don’t know where you get that from. Lay people can certainly be lectors, as well as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, even in the presence of a deacon at Mass.
What was the exact reason the bishop wanted deacons? And what reason did the people give to complain?
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Brendan
Guest
So let me get this straight. You are against the Graces of a Sacrament being bestowed upon others because you feel it would reduce your personal empowerment. And you are basising this upon a misconception that the Church is anti-woman and sexists.
The laity only distribute Holy Communion when there is a shortage of
That ‘Vox populi’ that you speak of was in error, the outcry was over a misguided view on behalf of the laity that falsely attributed anti-woman motives to the Churches use of a Ministry that Christ Himself established.
The solution there was (and is ) for the Bishop to correctly educate the misguided laity to full teachings of the Church and the nature of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
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bardegaulois
Guest
Considering I’m from a diocese with many deacons, I can say from my experience that the institution of the permanent diaconate has in no way cut down on the number of lay lectors or EMHCs. If anything, it has expanded them.
Considering, though, that your talking points here are the same as one might read in the National Catholic Reporter, and all of them were tried in 70s and found horrible, I doubt much conversation here is possible.
Bardegaulois,
Thank you for your contribution here. I am pleased you come from a diocese that is active and successful. Irish experience is difficult and we have problems. I have limited experience of permanent deacons and I may be wrong. It has happened before.
You wrote “I doubt much conversation here is possible.” I am saddened to hear this view. I considered CA a place where people of good will could express views sincerely, robustly and with courtesy, and where the integrity and commitment of contributors were not denigrated.
I had hoped that CA would be a place for Catholics to grow in the faith and others to learn about our Catholic faith.
L*et us build a house where hands will reach
beyond the wood and stone
to heal and strengthen, serve and teach,
and live the Word they’ve known.
Here the outcast and the stranger
bear the image of God’s face;
let us bring an end to fear and danger.
All are welcome, all are welcome,
all are welcome in this place.
Thank you for your contribution here. I am pleased you come from a diocese that is active and successful. Irish experience is difficult and we have problems. I have limited experience of permanent deacons and I may be wrong. It has happened before.
You wrote “I doubt much conversation here is possible.” I am saddened to hear this view. I considered CA a place where people of good will could express views sincerely, robustly and with courtesy, and where the integrity and commitment of contributors were not denigrated.
I had hoped that CA would be a place for Catholics to grow in the faith and others to learn about our Catholic faith.
L*et us build a house where hands will reach
beyond the wood and stone
to heal and strengthen, serve and teach,
and live the Word they’ve known.
Here the outcast and the stranger
bear the image of God’s face;
let us bring an end to fear and danger.
All are welcome, all are welcome,
all are welcome in this place.
Brendsn
You wrote “You are against the Graces of a Sacrament being bestowed upon others because you feel it would reduce your personal empowerment.” I consider this *ad hominem *and does not merit a reply.
You also wrote “The laity only distribute Holy Communion when there is a shortage of “. I presume ‘clergy’ is omitted. The laity can be as beneficial as the clergy is distributing Holy Communion. The benefits do not depend on the one distributing Holy Communion. The sacrament acts* ex opera operato*, and neither the disposition, sanctity or status on the one distributing Holy Communion or the recipient confer grace, but God does.
You also wrote “The solution there was (and is ) for the Bishop to correctly educate the misguided laity to full teachings of the Church and the nature of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.” This is your opinion. There is room for many different views. As the bishop withdrew his plan to introduce permanent deacons he must have considered the views of othere. *De gustibus non disputandum est *
You wrote “You are against the Graces of a Sacrament being bestowed upon others because you feel it would reduce your personal empowerment.” I consider this *ad hominem *and does not merit a reply.
You also wrote “The laity only distribute Holy Communion when there is a shortage of “. I presume ‘clergy’ is omitted. The laity can be as beneficial as the clergy is distributing Holy Communion. The benefits do not depend on the one distributing Holy Communion. The sacrament acts* ex opera operato*, and neither the disposition, sanctity or status on the one distributing Holy Communion or the recipient confer grace, but God does.
You also wrote “The solution there was (and is ) for the Bishop to correctly educate the misguided laity to full teachings of the Church and the nature of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.” This is your opinion. There is room for many different views. As the bishop withdrew his plan to introduce permanent deacons he must have considered the views of othere. *De gustibus non disputandum est *
M
Micosil
Guest
Well, the issue is, whether permanent deacons are ordained or not, whether one is present at Mass or not, as someone here has said, there will always be the possibility of calling upon Extraordinary Minister of HC, and there will always be lay lectors.
Sure.
Like I said, lay people can and will continue existing with this task.That isn’t an “opinion”. The bishop is the shepherd of a determined diocese, it is ultimately his responsibility to make sure the faithful under him are properly catechized about what the Church teaches.
In the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch:
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Brendan
Guest
The statement seems factual. Holy Orders is a Sacrament. It bestows Grace. Yet you oppose this sacrament being bestowed because " It will lower the status of lay people, especially women in the Church"
Your objection is actually a non sequitur, as the existence of the Deacon does nothing to lower the status of the lay people, nor of women. Your statement would only be true if the status of a Catholic was determined by their liturgical function. Is that your claim?
That is correct, but the minister is also important. The Priest, in Mass, is in persona Christi, so when we receive Holy Communion from the hands of the priest, we receive it from Christ Himself, in the same way the Apostles did at the Last Supper. Likewise with the Deacon, who is configured to Christ the Servant.
Hence why they are the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, that is the role they are ontologically configured to.
Actually, it is the opinion of the Church. The reception of a Sacrament by a person in now way reduces the status or dignity of another. That is as true for Holy Orders as it is anyone else. Thus anyone who hold that a man entering Holy Orders is an affront to their personal status or perceived value in the Church is in error. And it is the role of the bishop to correct such error.
Sacraments are matters of taste?
Brendan and Micosil,
I am sorry I misspelled Brendan’s name.
I think I have been misunderstood here, possibly due to a lack of precision on my part.
Reading your posts I am reminded of what a priest in our parish said that in the Church people differ in office but not status. We are all children of God, made in his image and likeness.
I am sorry I misspelled Brendan’s name.
I think I have been misunderstood here, possibly due to a lack of precision on my part.
Reading your posts I am reminded of what a priest in our parish said that in the Church people differ in office but not status. We are all children of God, made in his image and likeness.
B
Brendan
Guest
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