A Muslim woman was attacked and beaten by two men in Toronto

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I do get it. You don’t like Islam. You don’t like Sunni, Shia, Sufi none of it. You have here characterised them as wife beaters (which undoubtedly they are but so are all races and creeds) currently they are top of the terrorist list but I remember when Catholics were and that was an incorrect sweeping generalisation too. Most of the money to buy explosives and weapons for the IRA was collected in America presumably some of the good Catholics who donated are bemoaning the rise of global terrorism now. Oh the duplicity
Yes, Jimmy, you seem to understand me and my motives better than I do. Yet, you fail to see that there is a huge middle ground between the extreme “boxes” that you want to put everyone not sharing your position into, in order to dismiss possibilities that you cannot account for.

Unlike you, I want to know precisely what something IS before I claim to “like it” or not. I haven’t characterized anyone as “wife-beaters” and that is not necessarily an implication from the fact that some ideologies and beliefs have greater tendancy to cause certain behaviours.

No, I don’t see the world, as you seem to do, through ideological lenses, though I acknowledge that certain beliefs lead to certain proclivities in terms of behaviours. It seems that, for you, ideology rather than reality is the determining feature for your beliefs, actions and how you view the world.

This is why I, personally, wouldn’t characterize you as a “lover” or “liker” of things even when you come out in support of them – because life and reality are much more complicated and nuanced than that and people have a right to revising their opinions based upon new facts. A feature you don’t seem to want to acknowledge – nor do you appear to be willing to allow new facts to confront what you think you know to be absolutely true.

I take it you will refuse to listen to any historical accounts surrounding the genesis of Islam since you are not really interested in determining what precisely Islam is and where it came from, apart from the “view” of it that you have currently?
 
Yes, Jimmy, you seem to understand me and my motives better than I do. Yet, you fail to see that there is a huge middle ground between the extreme “boxes” that you want to put everyone not sharing your position into, in order to dismiss possibilities that you cannot account for.

Unlike you, I want to know precisely what something IS before I claim to “like it” or not. I haven’t characterized anyone as “wife-beaters” and that is not necessarily an implication from the fact that some ideologies and beliefs have greater tendancy to cause certain behaviours.

No, I don’t see the world, as you seem to do, through ideological lenses, though I acknowledge that certain beliefs lead to certain proclivities in terms of behaviours. It seems that, for you, ideology rather than reality is the determining feature for your beliefs, actions and how you view the world.

This is why I, personally, wouldn’t characterize you as a “lover” or “liker” of things even when you come out in support of them – because life and reality are much more complicated and nuanced than that and people have a right to revising their opinions based upon new facts. A feature you don’t seem to want to acknowledge – nor do you appear to be willing to allow new facts to confront what you think you know to be absolutely true.

I take it you will refuse to listen to any historical accounts surrounding the genesis of Islam since you are not really interested in determining what precisely Islam is and where it came from, apart from the “view” of it that you have currently?
Thanks for that useful insight into my psyche. You are truely gifted
 
Thanks for that useful insight into my psyche. You are truely gifted
Call it a repayment of a debt owed. I had no other means by which to pay off the cost of your psychological assessment of me.

We are now flush.

Carry on.
 
Call it a repayment of a debt owed. I had no other means by which to pay off the cost of your psychological assessment of me.

We are now flush.

Carry on.
I can’t honestly say I understand that but it seems to allow you to feel superior so fine
 
I can’t honestly say I understand that but it seems to allow you to feel superior so fine
“Flush” means on even terms - not quite the same as “superior.”

Here’s a thought…

About the woman who apparently “blew herself up” in Paris, according to one preliminary news item:

[The] Woman, named as Hasna Aitboulahcen by unconfirmed reports, is said to have screamed ‘Help me, help’ at police.

Just suppose that the explosives were strapped on her and she was forced out by her male cohorts to kill as many police as possible when she was detonated. Would that make you think just a little differently about the place of women in Islam?

Your answer, I take it, would be “No, this is just reflective of those particular men and not Islam as a whole.”

What is Islam “as a whole?”

Which takes us back to my question. Before we can like or dislike something, it behooves us to ask what it is that we are “liking” or “non-liking,” no?
 
“Flush” means on even terms - not quite the same as “superior.”

Here’s a thought…

About the woman who apparently “blew herself up” in Paris, according to one preliminary news item:

[The] Woman, named as Hasna Aitboulahcen by unconfirmed reports, is said to have screamed ‘Help me, help’ at police.

Just suppose that the explosives were strapped on her and she was forced out by her male cohorts to kill as many police as possible when she was detonated. Would that make you think just a little differently about the place of women in Islam?

Your answer, I take it, would be “No, this is just reflective of those particular men and not Islam as a whole.”

What is Islam “as a whole?”

Which takes us back to my question. Before we can like or dislike something, it behooves us to ask what it is that we are “liking” or “non-liking,” no?
You’re the expert
 
You’re the expert
Well, no actually, which is why I am saying we shouldn’t jump to conclusions about whether we should 👍 Islam or not.

I haven’t made up my mind either way precisely because I am not an expert, but I do want to make sense of what is going on and I am willing to see the good and the bad and not deny one or the other simply to support what I would “like” to be the case.
 
Well, no actually, which is why I am saying we shouldn’t jump to conclusions about whether we should 👍 Islam or not.

I haven’t made up my mind either way precisely because I am not an expert, but I do want to make sense of what is going on and I am willing to see the good and the bad and not deny one or the other simply to support what I would “like” to be the case.
I skimmed over your answers and you seem like a sexist Islamophobe. Did you know that a Muslim tried to stop one of the terrorists that tried to bomb himself? Just because one woman tried to blow herself up doesn’t mean that all women will. Look at FEMEN. They run around topless and sometimes with bombs strapped around themselves. That doesn’t mean all feminists do that. You know, the opposite of love is not hatred-it’s fear. Fear drives hatred in a society. For example, I have a fear of bugs. That fear caused me to hate them. I don’t like them and I don’t want to see one. I don’t want to go near one and if I see one, I get out of the room. I hope they don’t come anywhere near me and I hope that they get exterminated. Don’t you see a pattern in what I had to say about bugs? Just replace the bugs with Muslims…I heard people say those same exact things.
 
I skimmed over your answers and you seem like a sexist Islamophobe.
What? :confused:

I certainly did not get that and I think Peter Plato is raising some good points, if you label such questions as islamophobic and dismiss them, than you are not going to make any progress and instances like the one you reported will get worse (Peter Plato and myself would not do anything like that and we outright condemn such actions, but there are others with the same concerns as us who lack the Christian Ethos and therefore could easily do again what has recently happened).

These questions need to be addressed properly. People need to know just how Islamic ISIS is and just how much Islamic ethos differs from the Christian Ethos in which our nations were founded. Like I said, I don’t know much about Islam and I have not met any Islamic people accept for maybe seeing 1 or 2 of them on these forums (and they were okay) but of what I have looked into in regards to the life of Muhammad, there are some very troubling aspects there that need to be addressed. Pedophilia, Slavery and polygamy from my knowledge were practice by Muhammad, these things are inconsistent with the values of our nations and such I believe should be made clear if one wishes to come here.
Did you know that a Muslim tried to stop one of the terrorists that tried to bomb himself?
I didn’t, and that is good. I know not all Muslims are like that, I know there are very good Muslims out there who I am eager to invite into our nations, but there are also those out there who I am not and those who hold values that are inconsistent with the Christian values we hold dear and on which our nations were founded.
Just because one woman tried to blow herself up doesn’t mean that all women will.
Of course.
Look at FEMEN. They run around topless and sometimes with bombs strapped around themselves.
Whoa, I have never heard of this FEMEN group. If some are doing these things, I would be cautious before letting thousands into my country and I would also be reassuring my citizens that their safety was my number one priority.
That doesn’t mean all feminists do that.
Of course, but it would be foolish for that to hit the news and then an announcement saying that thousands of feminists will be arriving in your country and hear no reassurances that such is not going to happen here. And then to be already hearing of feminists already in your country sending money to the FEMEN group and no action being taken.
You know, the opposite of love is not hatred-it’s fear. Fear drives hatred in a society. For example, I have a fear of bugs. That fear caused me to hate them. I don’t like them and I don’t want to see one. I don’t want to go near one and if I see one, I get out of the room. I hope they don’t come anywhere near me and I hope that they get exterminated. Don’t you see a pattern in what I had to say about bugs? Just replace the bugs with Muslims…I heard people say those same exact things.
Good analogy, so what is being done or said to sway peoples fears of Islam? In Australia they are now trying to give more Islamic people airtime to defend themselves which is good, but currently when they do this, the questions we raise are not being asked, which only frustrates an already uninformed public more. Furthermore, sometimes there are things that we should fear or else it is stupidity. We should fear ISIS and the philosophy that drives them to do what they do.

Like I said, I believe there are some very troubling aspects concerning the life of Muhammad that are not being addressed.

I know one thing for sure, when people pretend as if all religion is the same, this only exacerbates the problem, because not all religions are the same, all religions do not even teach that all religions are the same (except for maybe Baha’i) people who say things like that (many people in high positions) show great ignorance of even the best known religions.

Anyway, these are just some more of my thoughts on the matter with the information I currently have.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Your math is way off. It wouldn’t be “Two” wrongs because millions+1 do not equal 2.

I think you ought to think about his point rather than reply with trite statements.

Is your moral “outage” being properly apportioned?
Ok sir. If you want to be a man, beat a man don’t beat a women. Just bc you want to beat up a Muslim, that does not mean you have to beat a women.

So to you these guys were fine, bc a million women get hit everyday. How nice of you.
 
Ok sir. If you want to be a man, beat a man don’t beat a women. Just bc you want to beat up a Muslim, that does not mean you have to beat a women.
:confused: I would condemn it just as much if the victim were a man or a woman. I also totally reject the phrase “If you want to be a man, beat a man” that is completely not okay nor is it an attribute of a man in any way shape or form.
So to you these guys were fine, bc a million women get hit everyday. How nice of you.
I have not read anything like that, I outright condemn what those men did to that poor Muslim woman and I am certain that Peter Plato does also.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
:confused: I would condemn it just as much if the victim were a man or a woman. I also totally reject the phrase “If you want to be a man, beat a man” that is completely not okay nor is it an attribute of a man in any way shape or form.

I have not read anything like that, I outright condemn what those men did to that poor Muslim woman and I am certain that Peter Plato does also.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
You don’t know why I posted that. I responded his post, post 7.

Of course it’s not right to beat any Muslim bc of 9/11 or what happened on Friday in Paris.

So I said, ok you want to beat up somebody, and it’s two men, beat a man, don’t go with a women.
 
I skimmed over your answers and you seem like a sexist Islamophobe. Did you know that a Muslim tried to stop one of the terrorists that tried to bomb himself? Just because one woman tried to blow herself up doesn’t mean that all women will. Look at FEMEN. They run around topless and sometimes with bombs strapped around themselves. That doesn’t mean all feminists do that. You know, the opposite of love is not hatred-it’s fear. Fear drives hatred in a society.
Thank you so much for your home-spun wisdom.

No, the opposite of love is hatred. Or apathy.

Fear is an emotional response that warns of possible danger. It may or may not be rationally justified, but it would be decidedly irrational merely to dismiss all fears as unwarranted.

And, no, fear doesn’t “drive all hatred in a society.” Often these two have very little to do with each other, although claiming that they do helps you convince the gullible that you are somehow right to chastise them.

But thanks for trying to work out the pathology of fear and hatred in such unhelpful and largely deceptive terms.
For example, I have a fear of bugs. That fear caused me to hate them. I don’t like them and I don’t want to see one. I don’t want to go near one and if I see one, I get out of the room. I hope they don’t come anywhere near me and I hope that they get exterminated. Don’t you see a pattern in what I had to say about bugs? Just replace the bugs with Muslims…I heard people say those same exact things.
Let’s not “replace bugs with Muslims” because your example is much too intimately linked to your own irrational fear of bugs to be of any use to me. I suspect that you are doing a bit of “projecting” in terms of how you view your fears, how you are driven by them and how you might be incapacitated by them, onto me – as if your fears have anything to do with me in the first instance. I have NO fear of bugs whatsoever and mostly that is because I have studied them and know something about them.

Instead of “bugs” – which most people don’t fear because there are relatively few reasons to fear what “bugs” are in the technical sense, and since what many people mean by “bugs” is something indefinite like “invertebrate-like things that crawl around,” the word is virtually useless, anyway – let’s use “spiders,” instead.

Many people have at least some fear of spiders. And there is some warrant for being afraid, or at least cautious about some spiders. The word “arachnophobia” is mostly overused – much like your use of the word “Islamophobia.” It is far too wide a brush. Arachnophobia, if it is to be a “phobia” at all, means a severe, irrational and debilitating fear of spiders. The reason the word “irrational” appears in the definition is because there is some warrant for normal people to fear or at least be wary of spiders. Virtually all of them are venomous although most of their bites cause little in the way of permanent harm. Quite a few do have, however, fatal bites and it would be a wise thing to know something about spiders before you pick them up or invite thousands of them into your house. (Perhaps you are seeing the analogy, at this point?)

In other words, it would NOT be an irrational fear of spiders – i.e., NOT arachnophobia – to express caution and concern about unidentified spiders being let loose in your household. It would be the prudent thing to do some spider ID to make sure which spiders are involved and how dangerous those individuals actually are to the human beings you pretend to care about. It would be positively negligent of you not to.

It would NOT be a wise thing to call people who DO know something about spiders and who are warning you to show some caution before permitting them free access to the skins of people you care about, “arachnophobes.” Your own LACK of knowledge of spiders should not permit you to act with such abandon and disregard for those you purportedly care about, nor should your willingness to smack others over the head with big words like “arachnophobic,” function as a substitute for sound knowledge and due regard where spiders are concerned.

Whether or not you can make sense of the above paragraphs will probably go a long way to determine whether you have any competence whatsoever with regard to using such words as “islamophobe” or “sexist” in anything like a meaningful or legitmate way, but nonetheless, I am quite certain you will continue to throw such words around with abandon.

I choose not to even dignify such words, however, because they are pretty much meaningless with regard to arriving at an accurate depiction of the issues or regarding the people who have them, except for SJW types who love such terms but who really shouldn’t be permitted to use them because most of them couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag anyway, since “feelings” are the schtick they like to beat others with.

Go ahead, flail away, if it makes you FEEL better.
 
You don’t know why I posted that. I responded his post, post 7.

Of course it’s not right to beat any Muslim bc of 9/11 or what happened on Friday in Paris.

So I said, ok you want to beat up somebody, and it’s two men, beat a man, don’t go with a women.
Actually “why” implies you have a rationally defensible reason for doing what you do, including posting replies such as the above on a thread.

Since you haven’t given anything like a coherent reason for your post, we still don’t know why you posted what you did.

It makes absolutely NO sense to me.

Pointing accusatory fingers doesn’t explain your reasons for an action it merely makes you look disturbed – and I mean that in the most respectful sense, as in “What has you so disturbed?”

Perhaps you are afraid? I’ve been told fear drives a lot of these kinds of reactions (though I, personally, highly doubt that “fear” is an accurate or fitting diagnosis.)
 
Hi Peter Plato, I really enjoy many of your posts, but I just wish they didn’t contain a bit of the personal attacks which I know have been hurled at you from other posters many times over. 😦

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
That’s why our homeland security is making sure that people get vetted so that they can make sure who to bring and who not to bring. Obama has already stated that refugees WILL be coming in. There’s nothing we can do about it. The governor of my state already stated he will be taking in refugees. What can we do except complain about it? All we need to do now is just wait and see what happens, they’re already going to come and we can’t prevent that.
 
That’s why our homeland security is making sure that people get vetted so that they can make sure who to bring and who not to bring.
I would like to think so, in both our countries, but I have some doubts and some things our leaders are saying has been unsettling for me anyway. And I know Frances policies do not work and we have witnessed not just terrorism in France, but also the failure of their policies of which I believe we should be recognizing and trying not to repeat.
Obama has already stated that refugees WILL be coming in.
So has our country, it’s bad timing that this announcement has coincided with a recent terrorist attack. That’s not what bothers me as much though, what bothers me is there is hardly anything being done or said to reassure the citizens of their safety.
There’s nothing we can do about it.
I don’t think that’s true, but nevertheless I think that’s an attitude I would counsel against, as people saying this will only spur citizens to take matters into their own hands.
The governor of my state already stated he will be taking in refugees.
But did he recognize peoples concerns and also reassure the public of their safety while doing so?
What can we do except complain about it?
When a Plane goes down, I believe we need leaders and others in-charge saying “I understand your concerns and I have them also, we have grounded flights until we find the problem and rectify it, we would like to also reassure you that the flights taking place at the moment are not prone to the problems that caused the previous plane crash due to X, Y and Z, but we will be extra careful with those too, your safety is our number one priority.”
All we need to do now is just wait and see what happens, they’re already going to come and we can’t prevent that.
Well, if a mistake was being made that will cause harm, I definitely would not accept an answer like that. I would say it’s either right or wrong to being them in and if they are not being vetted properly than it needs to stop immediately until they can be vetted properly and the public’s safety assured.

I hope this has helped

May God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I skimmed over your answers and you seem like a sexist Islamophobe. Did you know that a Muslim tried to stop one of the terrorists that tried to bomb himself? Just because one woman tried to blow herself up doesn’t mean that all women will.
You’re not only reading your own convictions into his posts, you’re doing it inaccurately. If your conclusion is “sexist Islamophobe,” you obviously didn’t read carefully enough.
Look at FEMEN. They run around topless and sometimes with bombs strapped around themselves. That doesn’t mean all feminists do that.
Are you trying to make the point that Peter implied that all Muslim men beat their wives? Because, firstly, he’s aware that this isn’t the case, and said what he did to make the point that Islam is a religion that, due to its heavy emphasis on patriarchal leadership and female subordination, is very conducive to abusive and controlling behavior towards women. Try reading his posts in greater detail, because not only did you not understand what he said, you literally took the opposite conclusion of his points.
Ok sir. If you want to be a man, beat a man don’t beat a women. Just bc you want to beat up a Muslim, that does not mean you have to beat a women.

So to you these guys were fine, bc a million women get hit everyday. How nice of you.
I’m unable to tell whether the point of what he said went completely over your head or if you’re purposefully misrepresenting what he said to make some poorly-communicated point.
 
Actually “why” implies you have a rationally defensible reason for doing what you do, including posting replies such as the above on a thread.

Since you haven’t given anything like a coherent reason for your post, we still don’t know why you posted what you did.

It makes absolutely NO sense to me.

Pointing accusatory fingers doesn’t explain your reasons for an action it merely makes you look disturbed – and I mean that in the most respectful sense, as in “What has you so disturbed?”

Perhaps you are afraid? I’ve been told fear drives a lot of these kinds of reactions (though I, personally, highly doubt that “fear” is an accurate or fitting diagnosis.)
No, to me it seems that I got you cornered (using a boxing analogy) and all your doing is swinging hoping one connects.

How is my post not making any sense?

The post was, 2 men in Toronto beat a Muslim women. Somebody else posted, “well, million Muslim women get beat by men everyday”. So bc Muslim men beat Muslim women everyday, that allows these “2 men” to beat on these Muslim woman?

Answer that sir?

My post makes sense. And btw I am not afraid, bc I am a man, who doesn’t lay my hands on a women.

Thank you
 
No, to me it seems that I got you cornered (using a boxing analogy) and all your doing is swinging hoping one connects.

How is my post not making any sense?

The post was, 2 men in Toronto beat a Muslim women. Somebody else posted, “well, million Muslim women get beat by men everyday”. So bc Muslim men beat Muslim women everyday, that allows these “2 men” to beat on these Muslim woman?

Answer that sir?

My post makes sense. And btw I am not afraid, bc I am a man, who doesn’t lay my hands on a women.

Thank you
I did answer it in my first reply.

By saying, “a million Muslim women get beat by men everyday” the poster wasn’t implying that it is allowable to beat Muslim women because a million Muslim men do it every day. That is the way YOU read what he said.

What he was saying (the way I read him) was that if you are going to get outraged about one Muslim woman getting beaten by two men in Toronto, then you should also get proportionately a million times more outraged by the fact that a million Muslim women get beaten every day by Muslim men.

In fact there are probably dozens of women of varying ethnic backgrounds who get beaten in Toronto by men of various backgrounds in the course of any given week, so why has the press chosen to make a huge deal of this one beating at this particular time? Obviously, it is to inflame and provoke outrage where the tensions are already high.

These “stories” are catalysts which drive agendas and are chosen to highlight what people with those agendas want to keep at the forefront of public consciousness in order to take the narrative in a particular direction. The problem is that the public is so used to being driven by their “feelings” that little thought is applied and very little proportionality is taken into account because we are so blinded by our own prejudices and biases.

You are taking me to task on the basis of your anger about the event. You didn’t stop to think that the reasons (not feelings) I defended that particular post were quite different from the passions (not reasoning) that caused you to get worked up and outraged about it.

Just stop and THINK before you write anything else. People may have reasons other than the motives you ascribe to them.

This is why dialog is becoming more difficult in this society and the reason it will continue to do so unless we stop and think rather than become immediately outraged by the things that happen around us. We have to stop presuming everyone else must think or feel the way we assume they do. Do we give others the benefit of the doubt and ask “What do you mean by that?” and try to understand what they are actually trying to get at before we jump on them? It is easy to assume they are the way we assume they are, which creates a caustic environment for dialog.
 
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