A Muslim woman was attacked and beaten by two men in Toronto

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Hi Peter Plato, I really enjoy many of your posts, but I just wish they didn’t contain a bit of the personal attacks which I know have been hurled at you from other posters many times over. 😦

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
You’re a good man Josh. Thanks for the advice. I’ll try to do better. 😊
 
It is a sad thing, but not surprising, even back in WW2, this same thing happened with Japanese and German people living in the US, it was quite common to see ‘anti-jap’ signs all over the place. Its just one of the negative things that come with war.
 
I did answer it in my first reply.

By saying, “a million Muslim women get beat by men everyday” the poster wasn’t implying that it is allowable to beat Muslim women because a million Muslim men do it every day. That is the way YOU read what he said.

What he was saying (the way I read him) was that if you are going to get outraged about one Muslim woman getting beaten by two men in Toronto, then you should also get proportionately a million times more outraged by the fact that a million Muslim women get beaten every day by Muslim men.

In fact there are probably dozens of women of varying ethnic backgrounds who get beaten in Toronto by men of various backgrounds in the course of any given week, so why has the press chosen to make a huge deal of this one beating at this particular time? Obviously, it is to inflame and provoke outrage where the tensions are already high.

These “stories” are catalysts which drive agendas and are chosen to highlight what people with those agendas want to keep at the forefront of public consciousness in order to take the narrative in a particular direction. The problem is that the public is so used to being driven by their “feelings” that little thought is applied and very little proportionality is taken into account because we are so blinded by our own prejudices and biases.

You are taking me to task on the basis of your anger about the event. You didn’t stop to think that the reasons (not feelings) I defended that particular post were quite different from the passions (not reasoning) that caused you to get worked up and outraged about it.

Just stop and THINK before you write anything else. People may have reasons other than the motives you ascribe to them.

This is why dialog is becoming more difficult in this society and the reason it will continue to do so unless we stop and think rather than become immediately outraged by the things that happen around us. We have to stop presuming everyone else must think or feel the way we assume they do. Do we give others the benefit of the doubt and ask “What do you mean by that?” and try to understand what they are actually trying to get at before we jump on them? It is easy to assume they are the way we assume they are, which creates a caustic environment for dialog.
Like you told me in this post, I will tell you the same thing. It is my opinion just like it is yours. Is it wrong that women get beat, yes. Is it wrong that these two men beat this woman yes. Is it wrong that Muslim women get beat everyday In their countries of course.

What I said, and you failed to see. Let me repeat it, you failed to see, was that bc women get beat in the Middle East, does not make it ok. Especially for us who are allowed to have freedom.
 
Like you told me in this post, I will tell you the same thing. It is my opinion just like it is yours. Is it wrong that women get beat, yes. Is it wrong that these two men beat this woman yes. Is it wrong that Muslim women get beat everyday In their countries of course.

What I said, and you failed to see. Let me repeat it, you failed to see, was that bc women get beat in the Middle East, does not make it ok. Especially for us who are allowed to have freedom.
At no point did Peter say or imply that it was okay. You reading that interpretation into his post, in defiance of all reading comprehension, does not make it factual.
 
At no point did Peter say or imply that it was okay. You reading that interpretation into his post, in defiance of all reading comprehension, does not make it factual.
You have an opinion just like I do. Theirs a lot of posts here that I agree or disagree with and sometimes it’s best just not to post. I don’t think my post had nothing wrong, from the moment he said your math is off, he’s calling me dumb, stupid, an idiot. But of course he, nor you will say, you know what he could of said it differently.

Another thing, in that same post he said something in regards to me being emotional. I don’t even know the guy, he doesn’t even knows me, heck even if he were a psychologist or counselor he could not make that assumption. ( btw I am an emotional guy, love music that talks about heart breaks and stuff. But in this article nothing remotely)
 
Like you told me in this post, I will tell you the same thing. It is my opinion just like it is yours. Is it wrong that women get beat, yes. Is it wrong that these two men beat this woman yes. Is it wrong that Muslim women get beat everyday In their countries of course.

What I said, and you failed to see. Let me repeat it, you failed to see, was that bc women get beat in the Middle East, does not make it ok. Especially for us who are allowed to have freedom.
Let me be very clear. It is wrong to beat women.

I have a wife and two daughters. It is wrong for anyone to beat them merely because they are women.

It was wrong for the two men to beat this woman, not because she was Muslim rather than Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Sufi, Zoroastrian, Taoist or atheist – it would be wrong whatever her faith or cultural background and despite any of them.

It is also wrong to beat children. It is wrong to beat men. It is wrong to beat animals.

The problem with the thought processes of our current PC dictated society is that we are being compelled to see things through specific lenses.

The claim is that Black Lives Matter and those who take it upon themselves to live that statement very quickly begin to forget that ALL lives matter. Gays should not be denied employment or housing, and that should be so not BECAUSE they are gay but because they are human. Neither should Christians who believe marriage is between a man and a woman be denied owning a business or have their home taken from them because heavy fines have been imposed merely owing to the fact that their deeply held beliefs about the nature of marriage are taken to be “offensive” by some gays.

When a report highlights the fact that a Muslim woman was beaten by two men in Toronto and someone makes a comment that millions of Muslim women are beaten everyday by Muslim men, this is an observation. Much can be read into that observation.

YOU took it to mean that the poster was implying that it is, therefore, okay to beat Muslim women; that he might have meant – in your words – “two wrongs make a right.” I didn’t think then, nor do I now, that he meant anything of the sort. That was you reading into what he said and impugning motives on him that very likely were not there. What he probably meant was a question such as, “Why is the news at this time reporting that story but ignoring the fact that many Muslim women are getting beaten daily by Muslim men?”

My point about your math was that if one Muslim woman getting beaten counts for ONE wrong then millions of Muslim women getting beaten should not merely be counted as ONE because millions do not equal one. So, TWO wrongs don’t make a right is simply ignoring that the second wrong is not equal to the first and should not be counted as ONE, it should be counted as millions (if the claim is factually correct.)

That would mean – keeping the math straight – that if we are going to be outraged by ONE Muslim woman getting beaten in Toronto by a couple of men, then we should be – if we want to be proportionately, as opposed to politically, correct – a million times as outraged by a million Muslim women being beaten by Muslim men; after all the WRONG is in the fact that a woman was getting beaten, and that is wrong regardless of who is doing the beating – regardless of whether it is Christian men, Muslim men, Sufi men, Buddhist men, Zoroastrian men, Hindu men or, even, other women.

What precisely do you find WRONG with my assessment of your math and wrong with my observations of your application of the principle that “two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Now you can take my challenge on both points as insulting to you or a slight against your intelligence or you can stick to the points and address them on their merit. This isn’t about you, it is about a statement you made about the observations of another poster. Whether you choose to see it in its proper light or whether you choose to continue taking it personally, that is completely up to you. I can do nothing about that.

Like you said, I don’t know you at all. That is true, which is why my posts have been about your points. You can choose to answer them or not, but let’s not deflect by impugning motives or by claiming to have been “victimized” because your points have been challenged.
 
Let me be very clear. It is wrong to beat women.

I have a wife and two daughters. It is wrong for anyone to beat them merely because they are women.

It was wrong for the two men to beat this woman, not because she was Muslim rather than Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Sufi, Zoroastrian, Taoist or atheist – it would be wrong whatever her faith or cultural background and despite any of them.

It is also wrong to beat children. It is wrong to beat men. It is wrong to beat animals.

The problem with the thought processes of our current PC dictated society is that we are being compelled to see things through specific lenses.

The claim is that Black Lives Matter and those who take it upon themselves to live that statement very quickly begin to forget that ALL lives matter. Gays should not be denied employment or housing, and that should be so not BECAUSE they are gay but because they are human. Neither should Christians who believe marriage is between a man and a woman be denied owning a business or have their home taken from them because heavy fines have been imposed merely owing to the fact that their deeply held beliefs about the nature of marriage are taken to be “offensive” by some gays.

When a report highlights the fact that a Muslim woman was beaten by two men in Toronto and someone makes a comment that millions of Muslim women are beaten everyday by Muslim men, this is an observation. Much can be read into that observation.

YOU took it to mean that the poster was implying that it is, therefore, okay to beat Muslim women; that he might have meant – in your words – “two wrongs make a right.” I didn’t think then, nor do I now, that he meant anything of the sort. That was you reading into what he said and impugning motives on him that very likely were not there. What he probably meant was a question such as, “Why is the news at this time reporting that story but ignoring the fact that many Muslim women are getting beaten daily by Muslim men?”

My point about your math was that if one Muslim woman getting beaten counts for ONE wrong then millions of Muslim women getting beaten should not merely be counted as ONE because millions do not equal one. So, TWO wrongs don’t make a right is simply ignoring that the second wrong is not equal to the first and should not be counted as ONE, it should be counted as millions (if the claim is factually correct.)

That would mean – keeping the math straight – that if we are going to be outraged by ONE Muslim woman getting beaten in Toronto by a couple of men, then we should be – if we want to be proportionately, as opposed to politically, correct – a million times as outraged by a million Muslim women being beaten by Muslim men; after all the WRONG is in the fact that a woman was getting beaten, and that is wrong regardless of who is doing the beating – regardless of whether it is Christian men, Muslim men, Sufi men, Buddhist men, Zoroastrian men, Hindu men or, even, other women.

What precisely do you find WRONG with my assessment of your math and wrong with my observations of your application of the principle that “two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Now you can take my challenge on both points as insulting to you or a slight against your intelligence or you can stick to the points and address them on their merit. This isn’t about you, it is about a statement you made about the observations of another poster. Whether you choose to see it in its proper light or whether you choose to continue taking it personally, that is completely up to you. I can do nothing about that.

Like you said, I don’t know you at all. That is true, which is why my posts have been about your points. You can choose to answer them or not, but let’s not deflect by impugning motives or by claiming to have been “victimized” because your points have been challenged.
Now, post 4, stated and a million Muslims get beaten everyday.
My reply on post 5. Was, two wrongs doesn’t make it right.

You stated that you assume. Remember what happens when you assume, break the word down you know what I mean.

Having said that, to me that post, just reading that post, post 4, and a million Muslim women get beaten everyday. That’s all you have under this thread, to me, it sounded like, so what they get beat all the time.

Should I have asked for clarification, probably so. Do I regret my post, not at all.

I also don’t believe women should be beat and I stated that.

You said your married and have kids. I’m not married but I have been the man of the house since I been 12 years old. My sister has Down syndrome, I was there for her when my dad left, when her periods started, I didn’t make her, but I raised her. So I sure as heck don’t want anyone laying a hand on her nor my mom.

And oh btw, I’m also a firefighter, I have seen my fair share of women beat by their drunk boyfriend/husband. So I think I have the knowledge and experience, to answer the way I did.

You stated that I could argue my statements, someone else on here posted that they like your posts but you get personal when you post about the other person (and you state I’m the emotional one, yeah right).

I love debating my man, but with you it be best to debate a wall.

I mean no disrespect to you and CAF.

Having said that sir, it was nice posting back and forth with you.
 
In post #30 Josh wrote:

*"…all religions do not even teach that all religions are the same (except for maybe Baha’i) people who say things like that (many people in high positions) show great ignorance of even the best known religions."
*

Just as a point of information Baha’is do not say “all religions are the same”… The major religions do have a Divine origin we believe but beyond that **there are specific teachings and ordinances that each religion has that are unique for the age in which they are revealed… **👍
 
You have an opinion just like I do. Theirs a lot of posts here that I agree or disagree with and sometimes it’s best just not to post. I don’t think my post had nothing wrong, from the moment he said your math is off, he’s calling me dumb, stupid, an idiot. But of course he, nor you will say, you know what he could of said it differently.

Another thing, in that same post he said something in regards to me being emotional. I don’t even know the guy, he doesn’t even knows me, heck even if he were a psychologist or counselor he could not make that assumption. ( btw I am an emotional guy, love music that talks about heart breaks and stuff. But in this article nothing remotely)
I don’t think Peter is calling you dumb or stupid. When somebody tells me my math is off I take it to mean my math is off. I then proceed to ask him or her in what way it is off. Nothing personal. I just may learn something new if indeed the other person is right.

Is there a possibility that they make think you stupid? Of course but it’s their problem not yours. It’s better to not waste a moment’s peace worrying about what other people think of you. Just my two cents.
 
In fact there are probably dozens of women of varying ethnic backgrounds who get beaten in Toronto by men of various backgrounds in the course of any given week, so why has the press chosen to make a huge deal of this one beating at this particular time? Obviously, it is to inflame and provoke outrage where the tensions are already high.
Obviously the recent events make this story more newsworthy, since people have a heightened interest now in such issues. That alone justifies the reporting. It is quite a stretch to go from there to say that the media want to provoke outrage. And even if they did, that does not diminish the importance of the story.

As for the “your math is wrong”, there was no math involved in the statement that two wrongs do not make a right. That is obviously a reference to commonly used maxim which has nothing to do with counting. Any number of wrongs do not make a right. It is silly to criticize the use of this maxim in this context just because there are other women who get beaten up.

To illustrate the newsworthiness of this story, consider the reporting of the lawsuit against the Colorado baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding. There are many people who are sued unjustly every year - for many different reasons. But this one case was singled out for coverage because of the specific reason why the baker was being sued. It wasn’t over a wrongful firing of an employee. It wasn’t over using sub-standard ingredients in his cakes. It wasn’t over delivering the wrong cake to a wedding. Probably none of these lawsuits would have made it to national attention. But since it was over his refusal to bake a cake for a gay wedding, it was news.

Similarly, the OP was about a women who was beaten up for no reason other than she was Muslim. In a thread starting with this OP, it is expected that we would discuss the case described, or others like it. But when thebookofester posted this:

And millions of Muslim women got beaten by their husbands yesterday.

It was an obvious attempt to change the subject. It is like when people post things about some lesser injustice or other, and someone else posts “but what about all those aborted babies, eh?” - as if nothing can be discussed until we first settle abortion. This is quite obviously not true, since you will find even the most ardent pro-life supporters occasionally discussing the chances of the Denver Broncos to win the super bowl.

So why can’t we discuss the OP without dragging in all of Islam vs Christianity? The case a a woman picking up her child from school does not require it.
 
So why can’t we discuss the OP without dragging in all of Islam vs Christianity? The case a a woman picking up her child from school does not require it.
Yes, and that was my point in post 46. Go back and read it. If we want to discuss the OP without dragging in Islam, then let’s not “drag in” the fact that the woman was Muslim.

Apparently, for the story to be about “a woman getting beaten for no other reason than she was Muslim,” then that is a salient feature. It seems quite legitimate to ask about the significance of that as a moral issue within the perspective of “millions” of Muslim women getting beaten every day by Muslim men (even as a springboard to asking whether that mis/conception has been established to be the case.)

I don’t see the “vs Christianity” being “dragged in” anywhere, do you?
 
Apparently, for the story to be about “a woman getting beaten for no other reason than she was Muslim,” then that is a salient feature. It seems quite legitimate to ask about the significance of that as a moral issue within the perspective of “millions” of Muslim women getting beaten every day by Muslim men (even as a springboard to asking whether that mis/conception has been established to be the case.)
That is changing the subject, because even if “millions” of Muslim women are getting beaten, they are not getting beaten specifically because they look to be Muslims. If anything, they are more likely to be beaten for looking too “western”.
 
That is changing the subject, because even if “millions” of Muslim women are getting beaten, they are not getting beaten specifically because they look to be Muslims. If anything, they are more likely to be beaten for looking too “western”.
It isn’t changing the subject, it is getting deeper into a subject that some – present company excepted, of course – would prefer to treat superficially and leave it there. Which is the point.

“Too western” would seem code for “not Muslim enough” or getting beaten for “not looking” or “suspected of not being” sufficiently Muslim.

Now we’re playing semantic games.
 
It isn’t changing the subject, it is getting deeper into a subject that some – present company excepted, of course – would prefer to treat superficially and leave it there. Which is the point.
It is not getting deeper into the subject of the article, which was** not** about Muslim women being disrespected by their own husbands. It** was** about a Muslim getting beaten by apparent strangers. (Unless you think there is a chance that the two kinds of beatings have a common cause. I don’t see any possibility of that.) The article was about the apparent cause of the beating. Any “deeper” inquiry into the subject that ignores that cause is avoiding the main point of the article.
 
It is not getting deeper into the subject of the article, which was** not** about Muslim women being disrespected by their own husbands. It** was** about a Muslim getting beaten by apparent strangers. (Unless you think there is a chance that the two kinds of beatings have a common cause. I don’t see any possibility of that.) The article was about the apparent cause of the beating. Any “deeper” inquiry into the subject that ignores that cause is avoiding the main point of the article.
The “apparent cause” was the distrust the men have with Islamic customs and beliefs, which are veiled behind a wall of expected behaviours and laws which embody the idea of submission – one expectation being the way women are treated within the framework of the religion.

If a story is going to go to lengths to show that the men were “bigoted” with respect to their motivations then it ought to take on the burden of showing the men were not merely wrong in acting as they did, but are, indeed, also wrong about the grounds for their supposed “bigotry” with respect to Islam.

A failure to take that opportunity to educate and work at building trust was a failure to use the story to its fullest potential. It simply creates more division because it starts but does not finish the “point” it sets out to make.

The questions to be asked are, “Why are these reports even necessary for the public at large to know about? Of what use are they? And what, in the end, do they really accomplish?”

I am not clear that questions such as these are even asked any more in the media because the bottom line of “sales” has become the motivation for all news reporting, just as “getting votes” has become the bottom line in politics. Which is why both institutions are rapidly becoming corrupt. Although there are some web sites recently coming online which do a far better job to adding depth of analysis.
 
The “apparent cause” was the distrust the men have with Islamic customs and beliefs, which are veiled behind a wall of expected behaviours and laws which embody the idea of submission – one expectation being the way women are treated within the framework of the religion.
This does not make sense. Are you suggesting that maybe the men beat her up because they believed that in the framework of her religion she is required to submit to beatings from her husband?
If a story is going to go to lengths to show that the men were “bigoted” with respect to their motivations…
The story did not “go to lengths” to establish this. It is obvious.
… then it ought to take on the burden of showing the men were not merely wrong in acting as they did, but are, indeed, also wrong about the grounds for their supposed “bigotry” with respect to Islam.
This also does not make sense. Everybody knows that it is wrong to beat up someone just because they are Muslim. The story does not need to take on the burden of establishing this well-known fact.
The questions to be asked are, “Why are these reports even necessary for the public at large to know about? Of what use are they? And what, in the end, do they really accomplish?”
Well, what did the story about the Colorado baker being sued accomplish? Does the public at large need to know about him?
 
This does not make sense. Are you suggesting that maybe the men beat her up because they believed that in the framework of her religion she is required to submit to beatings from her husband?
No. Not even on the same wavelength.
The story did not “go to lengths” to establish this. It is obvious.
Never said the story was supposed to. It assumed this and was correct in doing so.
This also does not make sense. Everybody knows that it is wrong to beat up someone just because they are Muslim. The story does not need to take on the burden of establishing this well-known fact.
No, but what is the point of parading the obvious wrong of doing so in a society that is already inflamed about the issue without looking at how the problem might be appropriately dealt with? What is the point of me telling you about the wart on your nose except to humiliate you?
Well, what did the story about the Colorado baker being sued accomplish? Does the public at large need to know about him?
Yes, the public has a right to know how and why Colorado bakers are being sued because there ought to be a full public and free discourse on the issue of why they were.

Which is precisely my point about the press reporting on a Muslim woman getting beaten by two men. Why was she? What are the factors that would bring it about? Let’s begin to go a little deeper than merely: “Gasp! A Muslim woman was beaten in our tolerant society! How despicable!”

That it is despicable is granted, now what do we do about it? Crickets… or “Let’s go dig up some more such injustices to show how unjust and intolerant a society we live in because we have to clobber everyone over the head with the ‘injustice’ club until everyone is thoroughly disgusted by the society that we live in. In the meantime, we’ll just ignore everything good about society until our “pet” narrative is proved beyond a doubt.”

Funny that the Colorado bakers being deprived of their business (and $135 000) for simply declining to bake a cake engenders no proportional “outrage” from those individuals who find the slightest “politically incorrect” offense intolerable. Talk about straining gnats and swallowing camels.

Clearly, you are not following where my points lead, and I have no interest in trying to pursue the matter since you seem to have no interest in looking at it from a perspective other than the one you currently have. You don’t seem to want to acknowledge the most obvious points because you know where accepting those will lead you.
 
No, but what is the point of parading the obvious wrong of doing so in a society that is already inflamed about the issue without looking at how the problem might be appropriately dealt with?
The point of telling the story is to inform society that it happened. Since you are a firefighter, let me ask you, is there any point in simply reporting a major building fire? Is it necessary that such a news report should also contain an editorial on mandatory sprinkler systems, beyond possibly mention the fact that the building in question did not have them?
Yes, the public has a right to know how and why Colorado bakers are being sued because there ought to be a full public and free discourse on the issue of why they were.
Which is precisely my point about the press reporting on a Muslim woman getting beaten by two men. Why was she? What are the factors that would bring it about? Let’s begin to go a little deeper than merely: “Gasp! A Muslim woman was beaten in our tolerant society! How despicable!”
That it is despicable is granted, now what do we do about it? Crickets…
I’m sure there were many reports of the Colorado baker that did not contain proposals on how it could be resolved. They are fine are far as they go. If other reports want to go into an analysis of the possible solutions to the situation, that is fine too. But that does not diminish the validity of the simpler reporting of the facts, which post #4 seemed to be doing to the OP.
Funny that the Colorado bakers being deprived of their business (and $135 000) for simply declining to bake a cake engenders no proportional “outrage” from those individuals who find the slightest “politically incorrect” offense intolerable. Talk about straining gnats and swallowing camels.
Typical case of “I may be bad but the other guy is worse”.
 
That is changing the subject, because even if “millions” of Muslim women are getting beaten, they are not getting beaten specifically because they look to be Muslims. If anything, they are more likely to be beaten for looking too “western”.
Good point; I am sure that makes the bruises hurt less.
 
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