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Jermosh
Guest
The lie is that you feel this staunch, pious, and hardened position on Pro-Life actually has any effect, the only thing it effects is ones conscience and ego.
I am also not side-stepping anything, I am showing that the world is in fact evil and will always be evil and has always been so. Once you come to terms of this reality and the reality that abortion will never in fact be illegalized, then you can actually work on saving one child at a time, help one mother in need at a time.
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fix
Guest
That is true of everything. My point is that we have a moral imperative to oppose these laws especially through political and legal channels. Lay Catholics are called to go into the world and live as Catholics that includes how we vote, and legislate, and much else.
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Jermosh
Guest
F
fix
Guest
Limited further harm. Now we have one of the most pro abort presidents and policies are reversed and becoming more entrenched. Hardly headed in the right direction.
There is no perfect candidate as we live in a fallen world. That is not a license to abandon the fight or to disregard the Church’s moral theology tradition.
If the choice is greater evil or limiting evil the answer is clear.
E
elts1956
Guest
The lie is that you feel this staunch, pious, and hardened position on Pro-Life actually has any effect, the only thing it effects is ones conscience and ego.
I am also not side-stepping anything, I am showing that the world is in fact evil and will always be evil and has always been so. Once you come to terms of this reality and the reality that abortion will never in fact be illegalized, then you can actually work on saving one child at a time, help one mother in need at a time.
…“saving one child at a time, help one mother in need at a time.” That is already being done by many individuals and many organizations. What are you actively doing for Pro Life birth to natural death?
Negative attitudes will certainly not change hearts and minds. The US at one time was looked upon as having citizens who were positive in their outlook on life. Nearly every child was a blessing no matter how economically hard it was going to be to raise that child. Look back to the 30s and 40s. The economic outlook was no better than now, but we did not abort our children because we were afraid to be dollar poor. And other nations looked up to us for that. We were US citizens who could not and would not let ourselves, or anyone else, be downtrodden. We “protected” everyone. Perhaps this was not our government’s outlook, but we as individuals were more than not proud to say we were stong in ethics and valued life.
J
Jermosh
Guest
That is already being done by many individuals and many organizations. What are you actively doing for Pro Life birth to natural death?
I think it fundamentally wrong to boast what one does in the name of charity. But to answer, as much as I can.
I disagree with the “good old time” paradigm, because it wasn’t. Prostitution was rampant during this time, I grew up in a the Pocono mountains in eastern PA, throughout the mountains were these large “mansions”, which were basically brothels for men from NYC, they would come out and have a “good-time” while explaining to their families that they were going on a hunting, fishing, or medical retreat. These brothels were run by seedy men who basically shanghaied the girls into the industry. Where there is sex and booze, there is going to be abortions.
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YADA
Guest
First - I do not think people are boasting when they describe their efforts t being Pro-Life in this thread … That is a red herring IMHO …
Second - The OP started this thread as an attack on the Pro-Life movement by [mis] stating that the only thing the Pro-Life movement does is lobby to end abortion and how that was the wrong approach … followed with the OP’s new approach …
The flaw in his plans [as the OP - who seems to have disappeared - found out …is that everyone of his ‘new approaches’ was not new … in fact ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN DONE [from the ime before the decisions of Roe and Doe], ARE BEING DONE [right now all across America in big cities and small towns] AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE DONE …
The OP offered not one single approach that was new, not one … the only thing new about the OP’s approach is that they have decided [maybe - I am not sure about that] to become involved. The reason I am not sure about their sincerity is the fact that they had not one clue about any program already in place for pregnant and new mothers that provides any assistance. The OP did not even seem to know about long time programs that are prominently known by their catholic origins and church wide implementation.
For some one to come to a site and tell people that they have been doing things wrong for nearly 40 years - with here’s how to do it plan - all when they do not know what is and has been done for nearly 40 years is just silly and rather insulting …
A parallel example would be like for a person who is a baker calls up a surveyor and tells that surveyor that reason neighbors fight over ther common boundary lines is because they don’t really know where the line is. And the surveyors shouldn’t just show or tell people where the line is. The Surveyor should actually set monuments at the property corners and file a map a the county so that it is a public record. The fact is that surveyors sow and tell people where their lines are. They also set property corner monuments, make maps and file those maps at the county plus many, many other things and they follow many, many other rules and regulations like meeting the requirements to become surveyor in the first place… The surveyor would be insulted if he was told he should be doing all of the things that he does already - as if it was new and improved …
Thus many here [myself included] provided example after example where the OP could find the exsting programs then the discussion devoled into - why making it illegal does not work … well since every one of the OP’s suggestions is in place the net question is … where is the OP [and others who think the same way] in providing the resources to do the works that assist people in crisis pregnancies? Where have they been spending their time an talent in the fight against abortion? If not at the crisis pregnacny center or unwed mothers home or in providing baby formula and diapers, rent assistance etc …Where have they been?
And since the only thing that has not been tried int he last 40 plus years is a nationwide ban on abortions - why not try it?
SInce states have tried to place reasonable restrictions - ike parental notifications, waiting periods, life [not health] of the mother, Partial Bith Abortion Ban, Second and thrid trimester bans and bans with exceptions for incest and rape, even just full reporting regulations … etc … ALL of which have been litigated by the left, the liberal pro-abortion crowd - where ids the support for the Pro-Life legal teams and the legislators that actively promote and support these bills - many at their political peril … where is the support of the people like the OP …
It is not that we are boasting, or confrontational by nature … we just get tired of the mis-information, the maligning of our charactersand intents, and the lack of recognition for what we really do in addition to prayinf outside of abortion clinics and lobbying our legistators …
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Jermosh
Guest
No it is not a red herring, they are asking me what I do for Pro-Life, I feel that is fundamentally wrong to state what I do in the name of Charity. You may feel its fine and want to wear it as a badge and tell the world all the great things that you do, that’s fine, but I am not you and I am not going to trespass on my moral conscience.
You fail to understand what my intent and others are, the simple point is that abortion will not be legalised in the US with our current strategy, and even making it illegal does not mean it will stop it from happening. So I feel its a total waste of resources and want to concentrate on the core issue of the Mother in Need and Child, I think we need to open our doors and spare bedrooms, we need to put down our prejudices and judgemental attitudes to help them. If we just tackle this one bit at a time, person by person, maybe we wont need to make abortion illegal.
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benedictus2
Guest
I think it is indeed good that there are those who help prospective parents with financial help so they will continue with the pregnancy.
However, while there may be instances when helping the parents will probably save a child, it is not quite true that helping the parents will eliminate the need for abortion. Abortion is not a need born of economic hardship.
To view abortion this way is to view it in simple economic terms. But people abort not simply for economic reasons.
A girl at work told me that if she were to fall pregnant right now she would abort her child because she is not ready to be tied down to being a mother at the moment. She has a good job and so does her boyfriend but already she has made a decision (even before the pregnancy) that she will have an abortion because “it is only a blob of cells”.
Another girl I worked with told me she had an abortion because she did not want a child at that time.
And yet another girl gave the same reason, that she wanted a career and a child will get in the way. She already had a good job but what mattered was climbing the corporate ladder.
We have abortions because women have ceased to think of the baby in their womb as a human being so therefore easily disposable.
This is the kind of thinking that we need to abolish.
If we look at abortion in economic terms we are buying into the same old secular thinking that what matters is the financial consideration. Yet that is really just a diversion because the motivation at the root of it all is the self-centredness aided and abetted by the lie that the baby in the womb is not human anyway.
This is why it is important to push for the banning of the law even though it may seem hopeless at this time.
Once we start dancing to the tune of the secular world then we are lost. We Christians are called to move against the grain.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Is saying that a mother who kills her child so that she may live as she wishes “a staunch, pious hardened stand”? Hardly. I doubt very much that one can label Mother Theresa as such.
This stance has nothing to do with ego, but yes it has a lot to do with conscience. Do I take it that you are advocating for the abandonment of our consciences?
This is plain and simple truth. You completely missed my point if that is all you can boil it down to. Truth matters. Once you start compromising the truth then you compromise the Gospel. Then you start making it look as if poverty is what is evil rather than sin.
I am all for helping mothers who have come to their senses as to the enormity of the crime that they are about to commit but they must be made aware of this crime and its enormity.
**
When we say that it is good that mothers who are helped financially are no longer in a need to get rid of their child, we are in effect saying that those (millions of them) who we cannot help, then have a need to kill their child and that this need is justifiable on the basis of financial circumstances.**
To stop pushing for reform of the law is to finally succumb to the lie of the devil. God does not ask for results. God only asks us to do His will to follow the truth. The results are still all up to Him.
There was this email that was circulating that went something like this:
Jesus told a man to push against the rock. After years of doing so he was unable to move the rock one bit. The devil turned up to tell him to stop bothering since it was all pointless but the man decided to bring this to prayer. Jesus reminded him that he was told to simply push against the rock. He was not asked to move it. Jesus will move the rock. All that is asked of us is obedience to His will and to His truth.
You see, you only base your conclusions on the immediate and such assessment totally disregards the strange and wonderful ways that God works to bring about conversion. You only determine the effectiveness of an action by what you can quantify in the here and now.
True but God became man precisely to redeem that evil world.
Oh but I have come to terms with the fact that there is evil in the world. But unlike you, I don’t believe that evil has the final say.
Sure, help one child at a time. Perhaps that is what is being asked of you.
But to say that we should stop speaking the truth is to buy into the devil’s rationale. Jesus had two things to say about the devil: that he is a liar and a murderer. These two play out in the case of abortion. The truth becomes the casualty and then the child becomes the casualty.
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benedictus2
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping: Good post.jermosh:
That is already being done by many individuals and many organizations. What are you actively doing for Pro Life birth to natural death?
Negative attitudes will certainly not change hearts and minds. The US at one time was looked upon as having citizens who were positive in their outlook on life. Nearly every child was a blessing no matter how economically hard it was going to be to raise that child. Look back to the 30s and 40s. The economic outlook was no better than now, but we did not abort our children because we were afraid to be dollar poor. And other nations looked up to us for that. We were US citizens who could not and would not let ourselves, or anyone else, be downtrodden. We “protected” everyone. Perhaps this was not our government’s outlook, but we as individuals were more than not proud to say we were stong in ethics and valued life.
B
benedictus2
Guest
B
benedictus2
Guest
Great post! :clapping::clapping::clapping:First - I do not think people are boasting when they describe their efforts t being Pro-Life in this thread … That is a red herring IMHO …
Second - The OP started this thread as an attack on the Pro-Life movement by [mis] stating that the only thing the Pro-Life movement does is lobby to end abortion and how that was the wrong approach … followed with the OP’s new approach …
The flaw in his plans [as the OP - who seems to have disappeared - found out …is that everyone of his ‘new approaches’ was not new … in fact ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN DONE [from the ime before the decisions of Roe and Doe], ARE BEING DONE [right now all across America in big cities and small towns] AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE DONE …
The OP offered not one single approach that was new, not one … the only thing new about the OP’s approach is that they have decided [maybe - I am not sure about that] to become involved. The reason I am not sure about their sincerity is the fact that they had not one clue about any program already in place for pregnant and new mothers that provides any assistance. The OP did not even seem to know about long time programs that are prominently known by their catholic origins and church wide implementation.
For some one to come to a site and tell people that they have been doing things wrong for nearly 40 years - with here’s how to do it plan - all when they do not know what is and has been done for nearly 40 years is just silly and rather insulting …
A parallel example would be like for a person who is a baker calls up a surveyor and tells that surveyor that reason neighbors fight over ther common boundary lines is because they don’t really know where the line is. And the surveyors shouldn’t just show or tell people where the line is. The Surveyor should actually set monuments at the property corners and file a map a the county so that it is a public record. The fact is that surveyors sow and tell people where their lines are. They also set property corner monuments, make maps and file those maps at the county plus many, many other things and they follow many, many other rules and regulations like meeting the requirements to become surveyor in the first place… The surveyor would be insulted if he was told he should be doing all of the things that he does already - as if it was new and improved …
Thus many here [myself included] provided example after example where the OP could find the exsting programs then the discussion devoled into - why making it illegal does not work … well since every one of the OP’s suggestions is in place the net question is … where is the OP [and others who think the same way] in providing the resources to do the works that assist people in crisis pregnancies? Where have they been spending their time an talent in the fight against abortion? If not at the crisis pregnacny center or unwed mothers home or in providing baby formula and diapers, rent assistance etc …Where have they been?
And since the only thing that has not been tried int he last 40 plus years is a nationwide ban on abortions - why not try it?
SInce states have tried to place reasonable restrictions - ike parental notifications, waiting periods, life [not health] of the mother, Partial Bith Abortion Ban, Second and thrid trimester bans and bans with exceptions for incest and rape, even just full reporting regulations … etc … ALL of which have been litigated by the left, the liberal pro-abortion crowd - where ids the support for the Pro-Life legal teams and the legislators that actively promote and support these bills - many at their political peril … where is the support of the people like the OP …
It is not that we are boasting, or confrontational by nature … we just get tired of the mis-information, the maligning of our charactersand intents, and the lack of recognition for what we really do in addition to prayinf outside of abortion clinics and lobbying our legistators …
J
Jermosh
Guest
Then have at it making it illegal, how is that going BTW? Look at Mass, pro-life groups were were pushing overtime to elect a pro-abortion Senetor who has been on the record that he supports RvW and keeping abortions legal. How about we just stay out of the political field and let God take care of the politics, as is mentioned in the Bible BTW. God put Obama in office, why?
So much for the ‘new’ approach.
Even the arguments are old and tired.
This has been answered. Perhaps you should re-read through the posts.
But then you may ruin a pretty good bumper sticker slogan.
J
Jermosh
Guest
Not sure what you mean, but based on the fact that its fruitless, it wont be my approach.
The only answers that I have gotten is that this approach of legal avenues is either this false paradigm that it will just stop abortion, which is factually incorrect base on many levels and truths. Then there are those who need fill the need to be righteous, I think its far better to be righteous in actions, which some are and I agree with them except for the fruitless crusade of having abortions legalized. God put these politicians into power, why? Why does God allow the legal extermination of generations?
One begins to wonder if you are even reading the posts.
Your tired logic has been answered many times over, why exactly do you wish to weaken the pro-life cause?
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