A not-yet-locked Thread on Modesty

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Modesty is a virtue that the Church today needs to be schooled on. The world truly NEEDS the witness of a Church that is NOT “all in” with the culture. I’m happy to see Lifesite has an opinion piece on it - The world hates biblical dress codes. Why you should live by them anyway.

Here’s a part of the article:
In Byzantine Catholic churches, special reverence is shown to the Eastern Fathers, among whom St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great hold a special place. Of all the Doctors who preached on the duties of Christians in the family and in society, none holds a higher place than St. John Chrysostom, great preacher of Antioch and patriarch of Constantinople. St. John preached with great fervor on the importance of modesty. According to Butler’s Lives of the Saints:

He was especially indignant at the immodest dress and conduct of women and their use of purple, silks, and jewels. He observed that “their veils were not worn as modest coverings and symbols of penance, but rather they wore thin veils in ways to attract the eyes of others.” St. John referred to these as, in some respects, “worse than public prostitutes: for these hide their baits at home only for the wicked: “but you”, he said: “carry your snare everywhere, and spread your nets publicly in all places.”

“You allege that you never invite others to sin. You did not by your tongue, but you have done it by your dress and deportment more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another to sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? You sharpened and drew the sword. You gave the thrust by which the soul is wounded.

“Tell me whom does the world condemn? Whom do judges punish? Those who drink the poison, or those who prepare and give the fatal draught? You mingled the execrable cup; you administered the potion of death. You are so much more criminal than poisoners, as the death which you cause is the more terrible; for you murder not the body, but the soul.

“Nor do you do this to enemies: not compelled by necessity nor provoked by any injury; but out of a foolish vanity and pride. You sport yourselves in the ruin of the souls of others, and make their spiritual death your pastime.


It will be worthwhile to carefully study these few paragraphs, which sum up St. John’s views on the importance of modesty. In the first place, he condemns as “worse than prostitutes” women (but it could be men) who wear certain styles of clothing that attract attention to themselves as objects of lust. He rejects the common excuse that these women (or men) do not “invite” others to have lustful thoughts or to act on their lustful desires, arguing that a person who dresses in a way that excites lustful thoughts when she could avoid doing so is guilty of the effects of her immodesty. Finally, St. John exposes the root of immodest dress as pride and vanity — the desire to draw attention to oneself and away from God and other people — without regard for the spiritual harm that immodesty inflicts on other people.
 
So you’re OK with “the common excuse”? After all, to use the words of Cain (Gen 4:9), having just murdered his brother, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” It’s a good thing for us all, that Jesus did not take that excuse and leave us all to “our problems” with sin.
He rejects the common excuse that these women (or men) do not “invite” others to have lustful thoughts or to act on their lustful desires, arguing that a person who dresses in a way that excites lustful thoughts when she could avoid doing so is guilty of the effects of her immodesty.
 
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Fide, thank you for the article,and happy birthday is in order I think ? God bless.
 
In the secular world, this is indeed the mentality. In Catholicism, however, modesty is important firstly for the woman, so as not to fall into the sin of immodesty, and for the men around her, so as not to be an obstacle and temptation to lust, thus, charity. If a Catholic woman has respect for herself and her brothers, she will dress modestly. And of course, the same goes for men.

Oh and happy birthday OP. 🙂
 
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I think something may be lost in translation or in drift here. It’s very reasonable to say that it is wrong to act in a tempting way while still putting the onus of resisting temptation on those tempted. The one who seeks to tempt is guilty whether the ones around him/her are tempted or not. The ones who are tempted are responsible for their thoughts and actions whether someone is tempting them or not.

Keep in mind, though, that while modesty is an unchanging virtue, the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural.
 
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Christianity certainly has a different way of seeing, and acting! In Christ, we ARE our brother’s keeper, bound to him in supernatural and self-giving love. As St. Paul wrote, in an issue of what we eat -
1Co 8:9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
1Co 8:11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
1Co 8:12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.
Are all Christians this heroic in the Faith? No, we are not. But Truth IS Truth! May we grow more and more into Truth, by God’s grace, and live lives of holy charity.
 
My daughter came home from college last night. She was commenting on the way that one of the graduate teaching assistants dresses. Long sleeves, even when it was 90 degrees in August and September. Meanwhile the freshman girls were running around in their “belly” tops. The teaching assistant is Muslim - maybe we can all follow their example out of political correctness, it we can’t follow it out of our own religious conviction. 🤣
 
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My daughter came home from college last night. She was commenting on the way that one of the graduate teaching assistants dresses. Long sleeves, even when it was 90 degrees in August and September. Meanwhile the freshman girls were running around in their “belly” tops. The teaching assistant is Muslim - maybe we can all follow their example out of political correctness, it we can’t follow it out of our own religious conviction. 🤣
Yes. I read recently that Islam is gaining many converts, these days, in reaction to the moral decadence of the West - and by extension, the modernist “christianity” of today. We ought to hang our heads in shame. And repent.
 
I think something may be lost in translation or in drift here. It’s very reasonable to say that it is wrong to act in a tempting way while still putting the onus of resisting temptation on those tempted. The one who seeks to tempt is guilty whether the ones around him/her are tempted or not. The ones who are tempted are responsible for their thoughts and actions whether someone is tempting them or not.

Keep in mind, though, that while modesty is an unchanging virtue, the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural.
Well, first, the “onus” - responsibility - rests on both the tempter and the one tempted. Two sins are involved, and the just judgment for each will be rightly determined by God. Each will answer for his/her part in sin. I blame the teachers and preachers on the Church, for failing to preach and teach on modesty in this dire time of moral collapse, as well as on nurturing the growth in all the other virtues, including chastity.

However, “the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural”? Maybe for a godless secularist! For a Catholic Christian, modesty is determined and revealed by God - from Him we are to learn; we are to follow and obey Him in Faith.
 
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Inquiry:
I think something may be lost in translation or in drift here. It’s very reasonable to say that it is wrong to act in a tempting way while still putting the onus of resisting temptation on those tempted. The one who seeks to tempt is guilty whether the ones around him/her are tempted or not. The ones who are tempted are responsible for their thoughts and actions whether someone is tempting them or not.

Keep in mind, though, that while modesty is an unchanging virtue, the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural.
Well, first, the “onus” - responsibility - rests on both the tempter and the one tempted. Two sins are involved, and the just judgment for each will be rightly determined by God. Each will answer for his/her part in sin.
I think we are saying the same thing here
However, “the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural”? Maybe for a godless secularist! For a Catholic Christian, modesty is determined and revealed by God - from Him we are to learn; we are to follow and obey Him in Faith.
Like all virtues the what we live modesty out in the world is far more intentional than a simple set of proscriptions. What tempts people is, at least in part, cultural, so if the goal is not to tempt people we must respond appropriately. If necks or ankles are tempting in a culture then of course covering them is an act of modesty. If they are not, covering them is not. The virtue is eternal, the context is cultural.
 
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Look, rules of dress vary widely depending on what time and culture you live in. These are social norms not moral norms.

The best rule of modesty is charity going both ways. On the one hand, if you see someone who in your opinion is dressed inappropriately to give them the benefit of the doubt, and sincerely think well of them. And if you struggle with lust, maybe take some responsibility instead of putting the blame on the women or men you interact with.

On the other hand your goal should be to look nice, but not to draw undue attention. Don’t wear anything too low on the top, too short on the bottom, or too tight anywhere. What “too” means to you is fine if you’re an adult with good intentions, which we assume you are (see above paragraph where we’re assuming the best about people). Neither should you break out in a cold sweat as you dress because your worried about causing someone to lust.

What we should really be concerned about is chastity, not modesty.
 
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The cultural rules of modesty vary, but do they really vary widely?
I think it’s a matter of degree – some women might think it’s modest enough for a skirt to cover the knee. Others might think it should be 3 inches below the knee (or some similar measurement). Or a few inches above the knee might be acceptable to another woman.
But it’s pretty obvious if a woman has a clue about modesty, or if she’s taking her skirt as high as it can go.
The difference is that a woman dressed like a streetwalker used to be treated a certain way, and now a woman dressed like a streetwalker wears that clothing to church, work, anywhere she darn well pleases.
 
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Like all virtues the what we live modesty out in the world is far more intentional than a simple set of proscriptions. What tempts people is, at least in part, cultural, so if the goal is not to tempt people we must respond appropriately. If necks or ankles are tempting in a culture then of course covering them is an act of modesty. If they are not, covering them is not. The virtue is eternal, the context is cultural.
In the moral collapse of these days, I see and hear a painful overabundance of justification of immodesty and amorality. If this were merely a detached academic discussion, having no real cultural context spiritually lethal to human persons, I would have little disturbance from your post. But I am afraid - literally afraid - that “the culture” has become a ready excuse for Catholic caving in - to quietly “fit in” - and go down with the Titanic.

This culture screams within for Truth, and hardly a whisper can be heard in response.
 
Ok, was just curious. This isn’t an either or situation - modesty matters for men and women. If a woman dresses immodestly it harms her soul too, as well as being uncharitable towards her brothers. And of course men should be modest too.
 
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There are places one can live where burkas are what women wear. You know, if this sort of thing is a big issue for you, male or female.
 
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