A not-yet-locked Thread on Modesty

[Tis_Bearself]

When I was young and didn’t always dress the best, I didn’t find lectures on modesty to be particularly motivating in helping me change my ways. If anything it would have the opposite effect. If someone had told me I needed to be “schooled” on modesty I would have laughed in their face and ignored them. That’s not how you reach people.

Now that I am old and, to my knowledge, no longer immodest, I still don’t find lectures on modesty terribly useful for anything except perhaps allowing those doing the lecturing to vent, as they aren’t contributing any new insights or anything that people haven’t heard many times before. On a forum like this, where the vast majority of those reading and posting are not going around immodestly dressed, it’s preaching to the choir anyway.

 

[Jen95]

All you “modesty-thread skeptics” (I notice you can’t help commenting on them!) - what do you think of these old saints (St. John Chrysostom, St. Padre Pio, – you know the ones) going on about modesty?
Just doesn’t apply?
It’s okay for everyone to just safely ignore those old stick-in-the-muds?
They don’t know what they’re talking about?
Our society is obviously doing great as it is?
What?

 

[Cecilia2017]

However, “the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural”? Maybe for a godless secularist! For a Catholic Christian, modesty is determined and revealed by God - from Him we are to learn; we are to follow and obey Him in Faith.

Er…so all the Catholics from cultures where, for example, topless women are the norm, should all just accept Western norms of modesty because God has determined and revealed that only we’re right?

 

[Jen95]

fide:

However, “the determination of modest and immodest dress is largely cultural”? Maybe for a godless secularist! For a Catholic Christian, modesty is determined and revealed by God - from Him we are to learn; we are to follow and obey Him in Faith.

Er…so all the Catholics from cultures where, for example, topless women are the norm, should all just accept Western norms of modesty because God has determined and revealed that only we’re right?

You know, all those Catholic cultures where woman are topless…like…?

 

[Cecilia2017]

I didn’t say Catholic cultures, I said ‘Catholics from cultures’, my general point being that, particularly since Catholicism is growing in the developing nations, there WILL be cultures with different modesty norms and thus I disagreed with the post that challenged the comment about modesty being largely decided by cultural norms.

 

[sealabeag]

Those Catholics have to live in that culture and put up with it, that doesn’t make it good. And yes, only Catholic morality is “right”, in its fullness. Other cultures and religions do have some elements of truth, though.

 

[Cecilia2017]

I feel It is the height of arrogance for us to enforce western catholic ideas of modest dress onto other cultures.

I can however see why these threads get locked so often. I guess it’s just one of those ‘hot potato’ topics lol!

 

[fide]

Montrose - “The whole sentence.”

In fact the Church ought to be teaching the moral virtues is a systematic and complete way, within the whole Faith of the Church, and she sleeps.

• You consider that whole sentence to be “my personal opinion”?
• " the Church ought to be teaching the moral virtues " - is my mere personal opinion?
• She “ought to be teaching the moral virtues is a systematic and complete way” - as opposed to a confused, disorganized and incomplete way, is my mere personal opinion?
• She ought to be teaching what she teaches “within the whole Faith of the Church” - again, my opinion only?
  and
  “The Church is currently asleep”, is my personal opinion?

Hmmm.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, …
Mt 28:19 " Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Mk13:32 “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Mk 13:33 Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
Mk 13:34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
Mk 13:35 Watch therefore—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning—
Mk 13:36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
Mk 13:37 And what I say to you I say to all: Watch.”

Those having ears to hear, hear!

 

[sealabeag]

Would you consider it the height of arrogance to bring Catholic ideas of morality and the Gospel to non-Catholic cultures?

 

[fide]

Based on your thread title, I can see that you’re clearly well versed in the modesty discussion on CAF and how it invariably comes to a standstill. What do new ideas do you think this thread contributes to the discussion?

I’m hoping and praying for much more than mere ideas, new or old. God’s grace can change hearts. The very misguided secular culture that is overtaking the world, needs a new heart and a right spirit.

 

[Lea101]

All you “modesty-thread skeptics” (I notice you can’t help commenting on them!) - what do you think of these old saints (St. John Chrysostom, St. Padre Pio, – you know the ones) going on about modesty?
Just doesn’t apply?
It’s okay for everyone to just safely ignore those old stick-in-the-muds?
They don’t know what they’re talking about?
Our society is obviously doing great as it is?
What?

I feel like everything that has been said has already been said. The average CAF person isn’t usually saying that Catholics can happily walk around dressed like a reality tv star, but rather the conversation of modesty can be silly and poorly executed at times, often times centered on male POVs. And sometimes modesty expectations are plain ridiculous. Otherwise we’d have a proper and critical discussion on modesty for both genders, rather than what goes down here most of the time.

 

[Cecilia2017]

To me there is a big difference between universal ideas of morality and cultural ideals of modesty.
As you of course know, catholic means ‘universal’, so yes, of course I would bring catholic morals and the faith to others. And converts may very well change how they dress. But there is no such thing as a catholic modesty norm so I would never condemn an African catholic woman who did not wear the same amount of upper clothing in her home town as I would in my culture or ever dare to say she was immodestly dressed.

 

[fide]

So sexist. Normal, healthy woman struggle with lust just as much as men do

I doubt that assertion - it is a talking point just too conveniently “PC” in the fad ideology of “gender equivalence.” God made them male and female with differences - not merely physical, but certainly physical inside and out, as well as psychologically - yet complementary to enhance fatherhood in the case of males, and motherhood in the case of females. God created family having strength through parents with gifts mutually complementary in their differences.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I feel like everything that has been said has already been said. The average CAF person isn’t usually saying that Catholics can happily walk around dressed like a reality tv star, but rather the conversation of modesty can be silly and poorly executed at times, often times centered on male POVs. And sometimes modesty expectations are plain ridiculous. Otherwise we’d have a proper and critical discussion on modesty for both genders, rather than what goes down here most of the time.

Pretty much this. Virtually no one is against modesty, we just disagree on whether a woman wearing shorts constitutes “immodesty.”

 

[DeniseNY]

I have no idea where people attend Liturgy that they see women dressed like “streetwalkers”. I have never seen anything close to this - where I live now or even when I lived in Manhattan. I may see a skirt I think is too short, or a top that might be a bit too low but I’d never describe a fellow parishioner as looking like a “streetwalker”.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I have no idea where people attend Liturgy that they see women dressed like “streetwalkers”. I have never seen anything close to this - where I live now or even when I lived in Manhattan. I may see a skirt I think is too short, or a top that might be a bit too low but I’d never describe a fellow parishioner as looking like a “streetwalker”.

That’s the issue exactly. People will say, “oh, so you think it’s okay to go to Mass dressed like a stripper?” And you say “of course not”, but then you realize that their idea of “dressing like a stripper” is a sleeveless blouse or something.

 

[Lea101]

This reminds me of those “hip” Catholic speakers that use dumb phrases like “collection of body parts” to describe immodest women. Lol. So far, I’ve yet to see a decent modesty talk besides the occasional youtube vlog or Instagram post. It’s always coming from a place of:

“I keep getting turned on, stop dressing like this!”

“I want women to dress the way I personally find attractive”

“Men bodies are so ugly so we don’t have to worry about that, but let’s talk about dress codes for all women”

And CAF is not filled with crazy “liberals” who want women to run around naked. If they can detect the tone of condescension, I reckon it’s worth paying attention to.

 

[whatistrue]

use dumb phrases like “collection of body parts” to describe immodest women.

This is a new one on me. Not the phrase, but the application. I used those words when talking to my son and trying to impress upon him that thinking of, and especially treating, women in that way is not acceptable.

 

[sealabeag]

I would actually disagree. What is considered modest and immodest has been quite consistent down through history (Christian history, that is), generally speaking. Styles change, and there are grey areas and everyone has different opinions, of course, but I feel that the consensus of what is basic modesty has been quite consistent.

 

[goout]

goout:

If men stopped lusting, this would not even be an issue.

This comment made me laugh out loud.

That’s it! That’s the solution to the problem! 50% of the human race just have to stop struggling with a difficult sin. Problem solved, I can now go out naked tomorrow.

I’ll keep lusting to prevent that.