A not-yet-locked Thread on Modesty

[goout]

goout:

If men stopped lusting, this would not even be an issue.

So sexist. Normal, healthy woman struggle with lust just as much as men do.

I have to keep in mind this is CAF, where absolutely no good sentiment goes unchallenged.

You do realize that the OP and the discussion is in the context of women’s modesty. That’s the context of my comment.

 

[JMMJ]

Not my experience. At all.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I feel like everything that has been said has already been said. The average CAF person isn’t usually saying that Catholics can happily walk around dressed like a reality tv star, but rather the conversation of modesty can be silly and poorly executed at times, often times centered on male POVs. And sometimes modesty expectations are plain ridiculous. Otherwise we’d have a proper and critical discussion on modesty for both genders, rather than what goes down here most of the time.

Yes, I have no idea why we have to keep having the same discussion over and over and over and over and over.

If someone wants to actually propose new or better ways we can encourage people who don’t read this forum to be “modest”, besides just running up to them and telling them their outfit is sinful and scandalous, then that might be a new and useful topic.

But most of these topics don’t present anything new, just the same ol’ complaints that some women (it’s almost never about men) dress immodestly, by the standards of whoever is posting, which depending on who that is, could mean the woman is wearing booty shorts, baggy knee shorts, a skirt one inch above her knees, yoga pants, trousers, or a sleeveless top.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I doubt that assertion

I struggled with lust. So did every other normal, healthy young woman I knew in college, all of whom went on to have husbands.

I know there are a small number of people, including women, out there who don’t struggle with their bodily desires at some point in their life, but in my experience they’re definitely not the norm. It is simply bizarre to claim that a biological fact of life, which is that most women have sexual urges prior to marriage (as well as after marriage and not always for their husbands), is somehow “conveniently PC”.

 

[JMMJ]

You do realize that the OP and the discussion is in the context of women’s modesty. That’s the context of my comment.

Yes. That is sort of the problem for some of us. Modesty is modesty. To discuss “women’s modesty” puts the emphasis on women. Shaming and blaming, in the name of religious virtue. Not a good look.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t know.

I’ve always dressed modestly. Always felt more comfortable that way. I love maxi dresses like the one below.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Doesn’t protect me from being cat called or even groped.

Yet I still get blamed for the actions of these men.

 

[Sarcelle]

Maybe women should be under permanent lockdown and not venture out into the street lest they tempt the menfolk to sin.

If they go out they should be chaperoned by a male relative and wear a face mask on, lest they tempt the menfolk to sin.

That is pure modesty don’t you think?

Why is it that any talk of modesty is always targeted at women?

What women should wear and how they should look like?
If they aren’t dressed like refugees from the FLDS compound they’re dressed like street walkers, ignoring the vast middle ground.

Why is it that Western dress is held up as the “Biblical” standard for dress?

 

[sealabeag]

That is strange, I’m all for modesty, but I’ve genuinely never met a person, man or woman, who blamed a woman for men’s actions, regardless of what she was wearing. Men should of course never do that.

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s different overseas especially in more conservative countries. I grew up overseas and my friends and I were subjected to cat calls and groping from a young age.

We always got blamed for the actions of these men even when my friends and I were still literally children.

My friends who grew up in Central America also experienced the same thing and getting blamed for it.

 

[Dolphin]

All modesty threads eventually lead to victim-blaming/shaming. The victim of sexual abuse is never to blame, no matter how they dressed. The blame of sexual abuse is 100% on the abuser, end of story.

 

[sealabeag]

That’s terrible, and fortunately, so alien to me. I’m sorry you had to experience that!!! I hope you won’t associate that kind of behaviour with men who advocate for modesty of both men and women!

 

[Sarcelle]

You may find it hard to believe but women do experience sexual desire too.

We aren’t just blank passive devices or appliances that just wait for a man to press the “On” button. We’re human too.

I have a hunch that some of the most vociferous of modesty advocates on women agree with the idea that women are sex objects, but instead of the current cultural mantra that says “look at me, I’m a sex object”, this definition of modesty would be “don’t look at me, I’m a sex object”.

This is why frumpiness is the result of this type of modesty culture.

 

[Dolphin]

Suggesting women dress like prostitutes and therefore they are “asking for it” is absolutely wrong and immoral. Even if the person was an actual prostitute, that is no reason to act out towards them or touch them without their consent.

Modesty is never presented correctly and then becomes more damaging than never bringing it up in the first place. If someone can’t control how they act based on how others look, they need personal therapy, not telling others to change how they act.

 

[whatistrue]

I’ve genuinely never met a person, man or woman, who blamed a woman for men’s actions, regardless of what she was wearing

I don’t know what to say about this. It’s pretty common, even now, and has been for as long as I can remember. And I can remember seeing JFK’s funeral on TV.

 

[Dolphin]

Pornography and lust is very much a struggle for women too. By you denying this, you further shame all those women who sadly feel damaged and not normal because of their struggle.

Think before you post.

 

[Dolphin]

When the #MeToo movement began and victims of sexual abuse started to become empowered to come forward, there was a ton of victim shaming towards them saying its their fault because they tried to get into better movies and got abused as a result.

Sexual abuse is evil no matter why it happened, there is never an excuse or reason that the victim should be blamed for. This still happens on a daily basis and it is extremely sad and perhaps even more sad is those who deny victim-blaming even happens.

 

[Dolphin]

Women walking down the street are not objects for viewing pleasure. Men should treat women with respect and view them as a person walking by them, not as someone to stare at to feel good.

Saying “just look and don’t touch” is not the answer and it is the same as someone saying “I don’t see color”. Both are poor attempts at viewing others with respect.

This is not some “PC” or “woke” culture. This is truth.

 

[Sarcelle]

What do you think of this article? Do men really view women as human or as objects?

Men See Women Sex Objects. It’s Not Misogynist. It’s Reality. | National Review

 

[whatistrue]

Absolutely agree with this. It happens every day, and it is absolutely wrong and always has been.

 

[sealabeag]

That is unfortunate. I honestly have never encountered it, or if I have, few enough times that I can’t recall ever encountering it. Maybe Catholic morality is still strong enough, at least in the subconscious of my country. I don’t doubt it exists in other countries! I find it unfortunate as it could undermine advocacy for modesty as being woman-blaming in nature, which is absolutely contrary to a Catholic understand of modesty and why it is needed. I know of cultures and religions whose reasons for modesty are those you describe. I won’t name those particular cultures/religions because I don’t want to derail the thread, but I’m sure you can imagine.