A not-yet-locked Thread on Modesty

[Dolphin]

Saying we can’t understand each other (which isn’t true) but then saying he can understand better than those who actually experience lust, is like me quantifying a statement with “not to be rude but… [insert rude comment]”. It’s contradictory and prideful.

 

[Sarcelle]

If you really don’t think women experience Lust, try reading some popular chick lit.

These books can rival pornography in its graphic portrayal of the sexual act. They’re very popular. This means that there is a demand for such things among women.

I’m speaking in generalities here, but pornography for men are usually in the visual form, like pictures and videos. For women, it’s in the form of the written word.

Do you really think women just lie there and think of England?

 

[fide]

What does God consider normal attire for walking along the beachfront at Bondi? And much more to the point, how on earth do you know?

It would be much better for you to find the answer to that with your own God-given faculties. If you knock yourself, the door will be opened to you. If you merely debate, you will gain nothing.

 

[Dolphin]

I’m speaking in generalities here, but pornography for men are usually in the visual form, like pictures and videos. For women, it’s in the form of the written word.

This is consistent with any male or female speaker on pornography I’ve heard on YouTube, the method of use is different but the lust is the same and to suggest otherwise diminishes the real struggle people have.

Do you really think women just lie there and think of England?

Post of the year ^

 

[fide]

The problem is when you try to make a categorical statement like this and there are literally billions of women on the planet. There are huge variations in human sexuality; you can’t simply say “women are like this, men are like that.”

The fallen world loves to blur black and white, and conclude from their world of shades of grey, that all is relative, nothing is true, everything is permitted, “it’s all good.” Women are not men, men are not women, sin DOES blur the clarity and beauty of God’s design - but sin cannot change Truth.

The insanity of “gender ideology” is rapidly infiltrating the whole world. It is lethal, it is a fatal and infectious virus, it targets the holiest proof that the “divine image” defines humanity, in distorting and degrading the foundations of marriage and the family.

The standard is authentic conjugal love - this rightly manifests human sexuality, NOT the sinful aberration of lust. If one can see the distinct, reciprocal and complementary engagement of the husband and the wife in authentic conjugal union in holy charity, then THERE is found understanding and light on this matter.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

That’s a lot of words that are non-responsive to the point we’re discussing.

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear fide,

Since this thread on Modesty is “not-yet-locked” and I’ve spent a lot of time reading it because I value your posts, I wanted to thank you.

Many replies you received were mixed and I’m sorry to say that few have pointed to God’s Word in Scripture, (as you did in several of your replies.) By God’s Grace, it is in Listening to Him Who is Truth and Who created us in love for love, that we can learn His Will for us as men and women. He has revealed Himself as the Church teaches through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church.

It seems necessary in our day to include the adjective “Legitimate” next to Magisterium because many of today’s Catholic hierarchy voice “opinions” without clarification, and sadly we hear more of “Political Correctness” than Truth, as you have pointed out, fide.

So I am not replying to anyone on this thread in particular but simply stating my thanks to God for His Truth given to us, and my thanks to you, fide, and those who seek God’s Truth.

 

[fide]

That’s a lot of words that are non-responsive to the point we’re discussing.

Well, I would say they are responsive - but I can understand how you could judge them irrelevant. From my perspective, they are more than relevant: understanding the norm (which is from God) is needed to understand the sin.

 

[Dolphin]

@camoderator I think this thread should get locked before more presumptuous and damaging comments are made towards women who struggle with lust. The usual modesty thread trenches have formed with some very bizarre arguments in the middle of these trenches.

 

[Sarcelle]

Women are not men, men are not women, sin DOES blur the clarity and beauty of God’s design - but sin cannot change Truth.

Is anyone on this thread is saying that?

Women are just telling you their personal experiences which you dismiss since in your opinion this experience can only be had by men.

Shared experiences do not suddenly transform women into men and vice versa.

Shared experiences, such as struggles with certain sins, only point to the common humanity of both men and women. They are on opposite sides of the same coin of humanity but they are both humans.

I struggle with gluttony and I’m sure that there are some men who struggle with gluttony too. Doesn’t make me into a man.

If you consider this gender ideology then consider me guilty.

 

[JMMJ]

Well said.

 

[blackforest]

Plank.

Doesn’t it seem to you that you are wasting your time, staying on a thread that displeases you?

I’ll answer for myself. We women (or clearly the lot of us responding) don’t take kindly to men objectifying us. Obsessing over what we wear and how “modest” we subjectively appear is frankly as objectifying as getting cat-called.

So by all means, keep starting these threads. We’ll keep coming to them.

 

[Inbonum]

@fide

Maybe you really don’t understand that women can have problem with lust, even to the point of sexual addiction.
I suggest you to read this book, It brought tears to my eyes

Delivered: True Stories of Men Who Turned From Porn to Purity

 

[Jen95]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dating-and-mating/202003/how-high-sex-drive-works-differently-in-men-and-women%3Famp

 

[Jen95]

Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?

 

[Sarcelle]

This study doesn’t disprove the point of contention that women can suffer from the sin of lust.

We are talking about generalities here and not individual experiences. When an individual tells you of their experiences doesn’t mean that it is invalid because on average members, of their group do not experience it.

 

[mary15]

It works both ways, this modesty. I wept when my priest in confessional finally wore a cassock, to keep himself covered.

I have to pray and work hard on my custody of the eyes which is causing me so much pain.

Yes, I confessed, and after a time, I think this priest really finally got the brutality of being this honest, yet knew that absolution was the way to healing.

I am tired of being lonely, yes, but I love this purity I am trying now and it must be cultivated and worked on and is a timeless goal and striving for perfection.

Pray for me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This study doesn’t disprove the point of contention that women can suffer from the sin of lust.

Lust is also not always the product of a “high sex drive”.

A lot of women have normal sex drives, but they have a problem/ struggle with lust for a particular man, or a particular type of man, and they are ashamed and embarrassed and frustrated with it because not only is it sinful, and from a practical standpoint also bad for them, but in addition it is so unlike them (in their mind) to be fantasizing over a man or a group of men or a type. I’m sure this also happens to some men who are generally level-headed and not out there trying to make it with every pretty girl they see, but certain women, or woman, really send them round the bend and inspire them to do things that are immoral and out of character.

Often the type of person who triggers a lustful response is NOT someone who is good for them, or a good pick for a spouse, or even available. All of which compounds the bad feelings.

I don’t think what I post here is going to convince anyone who has their mind made up that those who struggle with lust are basically males with high sex drive and a sex addiction/ porn addiction/ problem with custody of the eyes. And there are no doubt women who have sex or porn addictions. But there are lots of other type of struggles with lust. And lust is what it is. You can’t redefine it as something else when you’re using someone as a sex object, even if he is the only man you’ve regarded that way all year.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

This is the exact type of statement that causes women who struggle with lust or pornography to feel ‘unwomanly’ or weird or broken. This statement is wrong, unchristian, and uncharitable.

THIS THIS THIS. I’m not going to get into it, but I felt completely humiliated and ‘broken’ growing up because of the pearl clutching and denial of desire surrounding women’s sexual urges. Having degrees in psychology with an emphasis in neuropsychology, I know how erroneous it is to assume innate differences when the context for differences is social conditioning.

It’s like some men think they should win the contest of ‘hardest sin to bear’ and ‘who wants sex more’. I don’t understand what they think would be a good progress of discussion. This whole thread is essentially aimed at shaming women. Shame on a woman who thinks she knows true lust. Shame on a woman who physiologically craves sex–she isn’t normal and this is a problem for us men. Shame on her for inciting lust by her immodest dress. Shame shame shame. Why, I ask, do people insist in their arguments and interpretation of another’s experience, even when told directly of said experience firsthand. What gives anyone the right to pat us little women on the head and send us along our way, ‘I know you think you lust, but sweetie, listen to me, you have no idea what you’re really feeling. Now, I’d like a roast chicken for dinner, so you’ll want to start on that soon’.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the pearl clutching and denial of desire surrounding women’s sexual urges.

And it persists to this day among some Catholics, as shown right here on this forum.

I’m not sure whether it’s denial, ignorance, or misogyny, or some of all three, but it is not helpful spiritually to a woman having these struggles.

Thankfully, priests in confession don’t dismiss a woman’s sins as “political correctness” or “impossible because women can’t commit lust”.

This whole thread is essentially aimed at shaming women. Shame on a woman who thinks she knows true lust. Shame on a woman who physiologically craves sex–she isn’t normal and this is a problem for us men. Shame on her for inciting lust by her immodest dress. Shame shame shame.

Completely agree. And it started right straight out of the blue, as no one has identified any woman on this forum who supports immodest dress or posts pictures of her immodest outfits. Yet we need to be “schooled” in modesty. And then be “schooled” about our own urges, feelings, and sins. I am both baffled and appalled and unfortunately, resigned to the fact that a certain subset of Catholics will likely continue with these views and be given a platform.