A
adrift
Guest
From “The Building of Christendom” by Warrren H. Carrol page 218
Doesn’t sound very peaceful
- Status
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paarsurrey
Guest
HiFrom “The Building of Christendom” by Warrren H. Carrol page 218
Doesn’t sound very peaceful
Please remember, we are disscussing the first fifty five years of Muhammad’s life, in this thread.
Thanks
Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
A
adrift
Guest
Interesting
Didn’t he live to only be 62?
So all those things that I posted was between the age of 55 and 62?
Why do you limit the discussion to those years?
B
BelFarfalla
Guest
Yes, Muhammad’s violence did not start until he moved to Medina. Up to that point he did not have enough followers to pull off the violence.Interesting
Didn’t he live to only be 62?
So all those things that I posted was between the age of 55 and 62?
Why do you limit the discussion to those years?
In Madina he attracted a lot of violent followers who were willing to carry out assassinations, caravan raids, and fight for him. That is when the blood began to run. In the last 10 years of his life, he fought 83 or so battles.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I give here some passages from : catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp
for your reflection:
But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force, telling the apostles, “let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one” (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?
In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.
This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.
The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is “a time to kill” (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms.
As long as Christianity remained a minority religion in the Roman Empire, it was not forced to put these insights together into a formal theory of when warfare could be used. But as Christianity grew predominant, more attention had to be devoted to this subject. By the time of Augustine (A.D. 354-430) the need for a theory of when warfare was just was keen, and Augustine provided one, crystallizing biblical principles into what is now known as just war doctrine.
Thanks
Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiInteresting
Didn’t he live to only be 62?
So all those things that I posted was between the age of 55 and 62?
Why do you limit the discussion to those years?
I will discuss last 10 years of Muhammad’s life later at a separate thread. Please wait till then.
I have sent a post for reflection of our Catholic friend BelFarfalla, the last one here. Please read it.
Thanks
Muhammad had a marvelous record of a peace loving person for 40+13+2=55 years, he joined in welfare activities if there was any in Mecca, he helped the needy and in distress, he stood for the human cause, he never harmed any person. His record in these 55 years is clean by any standards.
D
dolphinlove
Guest
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
To clarify, Muhammad’s ‘peaceful’ life stopped in Ramadan 1AH.
Saif Al-Bahr Platoon sent in Ramadan 1 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. led by Hamzah bin ‘Abdul Muttalib and comprising 30 Emigrants with a definite task of intercepting a caravan belonging to Quraish. It was a caravan of 300 people including Abu Jahl bin Hisham. The two parties encountered each other and aligned in preparation for fighting. Majdi bin ‘Amr, on good terms with both sides, happened to be there and managed to prevent an imminent clash.
It took a YEAR of extreme provocation before the peaceful Meccan pagans had enough of Muslim aggression and retaliated at the Battle of Badr in Ramadan 2 AH.
Source:Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar) By Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri
You’ll find Muhammad was born on 570AD. Hijri was 622AD which makes Muhammad 53 years old when he started his ‘peaceful’ raiding of the Meccan caravans.
Be that as it may, a violent man is not judged by how many years he was not violent but by the violence that he committed. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot were not always violent.
Saif Al-Bahr Platoon sent in Ramadan 1 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. led by Hamzah bin ‘Abdul Muttalib and comprising 30 Emigrants with a definite task of intercepting a caravan belonging to Quraish. It was a caravan of 300 people including Abu Jahl bin Hisham. The two parties encountered each other and aligned in preparation for fighting. Majdi bin ‘Amr, on good terms with both sides, happened to be there and managed to prevent an imminent clash.
It took a YEAR of extreme provocation before the peaceful Meccan pagans had enough of Muslim aggression and retaliated at the Battle of Badr in Ramadan 2 AH.
Source:Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar) By Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri
You’ll find Muhammad was born on 570AD. Hijri was 622AD which makes Muhammad 53 years old when he started his ‘peaceful’ raiding of the Meccan caravans.
Be that as it may, a violent man is not judged by how many years he was not violent but by the violence that he committed. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot were not always violent.
F
french
Guest
paarasuey -i would like to know more about the ahmadi religion. could you perhaps tell us a little about it here, or make another thread?
Also, you claim that mohammad was this and that, this and that, trustwortyh, caring, etc. These are the same things attributed to Jesus in the Bible… ohh, but according to you, our New Testament is corrupted! Yet Jesus is seen by us Chrsitians as a great man.
How do you know that people did not make up the claims about mohammad.
and also, have you ever heard of a man by the name of Baha’u’llah? Baha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Jesus Christ (like ahmadis think that one man was)
Baha’u’llah was imprisoned for claiming such all his life. However, he was one day let out, and do you know why? Because he was extremely trusted.
The government did not even tell them to release him! He was just soo trusted, that they decided to spare him.
Also, he had to be transferred to many different prisons, and do you know why? Because every prison he went to, the prison guards would convert to the Baha’i Faith!
Do a little research on him. Trust me, if you think mohammad was spectacular, check this man out lol!
But just as I do not believe mohammad is a prophet, i don’t believe baha’u’llah is either! although baha’u’llah was a very extraordinary man, I don’t believe it’s the truth!
Also, you claim that mohammad was this and that, this and that, trustwortyh, caring, etc. These are the same things attributed to Jesus in the Bible… ohh, but according to you, our New Testament is corrupted! Yet Jesus is seen by us Chrsitians as a great man.
How do you know that people did not make up the claims about mohammad.
and also, have you ever heard of a man by the name of Baha’u’llah? Baha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Jesus Christ (like ahmadis think that one man was)
Baha’u’llah was imprisoned for claiming such all his life. However, he was one day let out, and do you know why? Because he was extremely trusted.
The government did not even tell them to release him! He was just soo trusted, that they decided to spare him.
Also, he had to be transferred to many different prisons, and do you know why? Because every prison he went to, the prison guards would convert to the Baha’i Faith!
Do a little research on him. Trust me, if you think mohammad was spectacular, check this man out lol!
But just as I do not believe mohammad is a prophet, i don’t believe baha’u’llah is either! although baha’u’llah was a very extraordinary man, I don’t believe it’s the truth!
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
There is already a thread titled “Ahmadis” started by kellie (not seen posting anything these days), please access at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=160653
Today as requested by you I intend to start a thread: Eradication of Violence in Muslims – A Peaceful Approach
Thanks for your interest.
O
obadiah
Guest
Greetings friend of peace. I found a website:
http:// www.alislam.org which gives information about Ahmadi Islam. Could this be the same thing you are referring to?
Al Ham Dulilah He Rabil Alameen.
May Allah subhana taAllah bless all who seek peace.
My Arabic name is Abdul Wali = Obadiah= Ovadyah= Obdiah.
Salam Alechem= Salam Ma-akhum.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiGreetings friend of peace. I found a website:
http:// www.alislam.org which gives information about Ahmadi Islam. Could this be the same thing you are referring to?
Al Ham Dulilah He Rabil Alameen.
May Allah subhana taAllah bless all who seek peace.
My Arabic name is Abdul Wali = Obadiah= Ovadyah= Obdiah.
Salam Alechem= Salam Ma-akhum.
Yes, that is the official website of Ahmadis- a peaceful community in Islam.
Thanks
B
BelFarfalla
Guest
This is exactly the point. One has to believe that Muhammad had just cause to slaughter people instead of seeking peace with them. In the opinion of the vast majority he never had to kill and enslave those people. All he had to do was to negotiate terms that allowed all people to have (name removed by moderator)ut.
Instead he forced treaties on people under the treat of harming them. That is called coersion.
O
obadiah
Guest
I understand there are different sects in Al Islam,
Sunni, Shia, Sufi
Which one is Ahmadis?
I took shahada back in 1986 in San Diego so I could study Islam from Muslims.
Currently, I am an Orthodox Christian.
Maybe we could P.M. each other? Salam Ma-Akum.
A
adrift
Guest
Born 570 died 632 So the years you wish to talk about is 570 to 625?
In 623, Muhammad directed his followers to raid trading caravans in order to replenish his loss in his emigration. June 623 Muhammad led the raid himself. In November, he sent a raid against a Meccan caravan and one Mecccan was killed.
He sounds like a thieving thug.
M
Mimi
Guest
Paarsurrey, you are right.
I commend your even and charitable tone in this thread.
I would hope you are that nice in person as well!
As St. Francis said, “Always preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words” (or something close to that effect).
I haven’t read all the posts after #50 as yet, but will in the near future.
Peace,
Mimi
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
We are all brothers/sisters/friends in humanity, that is first.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!
Thanks
You might like to read
alislam.org/books/
Introduction to the Study of Holy Quran (English)
from the Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
O
obadiah
Guest
Dear paarsurrey I just saw the movie Gahndi I think you feel the same way he did. We must all try to find some way of peace, shalom, salam, pax, shanti.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I often say, GodAllahYHWH has created humans and then they are born and get an illustrious chance of living under the blue sky and green earth. He has blown breath into his nostrils, if one becomes so spoiled not worthy of living GodAllahYHWH would stop his breath, let it be his discretion. If I can’t give life to a dead person, I don’t have a reasonable ground to snatch it from him. Praise be to GodAllahYHWH, the creator of this Universe.
Thanks
The first forty years i.e. before Muhammad was appointed ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH has been offered as a reasonable argument/challenge in Quran before Nonbelievers-of-Mecca, and they could not deny its truthfulness.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
15. THE PROPHET RECEIVES HIS FIRST REVELATION
When the Prophet was over thirty years of age, love of God
and love of His worship began to possess him more and more.
Revolting against the mischiefs, misdeeds and the many vices
of the people of Mecca, he chose a spot two or three miles away
for his meditations. This was on top of a hill, a sort of cave
shaped out of stone. His wife Khadija would prepare food
enough for several days, and with this he would repair to the
cave Hira. In the cave he would worship God day and night.
When he was forty years of age, he saw a vision. It was in this
very cave. He saw some one commanding him to recite.
16. The Prophet said in reply he did not know what or how to recite. The figure insisted and at last made the Prophet
recite the following verses :
Recite thou in the name of thy Lord Who created, created
man from a clot of blood. Recite ! And thy Lord is the Most
Beneficent, Who taught man by the pen, taught man what he
knew not (96 : 2-6).
17. These verses, the first ever revealed to the Prophet, became
part of the Quran as did other verses which were revealed later.
They have tremendous meaning. They command the Prophet
to stand up and be ready to proclaim the name of the One God,
the One Creator-of the Prophet and of all others-Who has
made man and sowed the seed of His own love and that of
fellow-men in his nature. The Prophet was commanded to
proclaim the Message of this God, and was promised help and
protection by Him in the proclamation of this Message. The
verses foretold a time when the world would be taught all
manner of knowledge through the instrumentality of the pen,
and would be taught things never heard of before. The verses
constitute an epitome of the Quran. Whatever the Prophet
was to be taught in later revelations is contained in embryo in
these verses. The foundation was laid in them of a great and
heretofore unknown advance in the spiritual progress of man.
The meaning and explanation of these verses will be found in
their place in this Commentary.
18. We refer to them here because
their revelation constitutes a great occasion in the life of the
Prophet. When the Prophet received this revelation, he was
full of fear of the responsibility which God had decided to
place on his shoulders. Any other person in his place would
have been filled with pride-he would have felt that he had
become great. The Prophet was different. He could achieve
great things but could take no pride in his achievement.
19. After this great experience he reached home greatly agitated,
his face drawn. On Khadija’s enquiry, he narrated the whole
experience to her and summed up his fears, saying, “Weak man
that I am, how can I carry the responsibility which God
proposes to put on my shoulders.” Khadija replied at once :
God is witness, He has not sent you this Word that you should
fail and prove unworthy, that He should then give you up.
20. How can God do such a thing, while you are kind and consider-
ate to your relations, help the poor and the forlorn and bear
their burdens ? You are restoring the virtues which had disap-
peared from our country. You treat guests with honour and
help those who are in distress. Can you be subjected by God
to any trial ? ( B u k h a r i ) .
Having said this, Khadija took the Prophet to her cousin,
Waraqa bin Naufal, a Christian. When he heard the account
Waraqa said :
“The angel who descended on Moses, I am sure, has de-
scended on you” (Bukhari).
Unquote
Thanks
We continue learning about Muhammad’s peaceful life in Mecca:
15. THE PROPHET RECEIVES HIS FIRST REVELATION
When the Prophet was over thirty years of age, love of God
and love of His worship began to possess him more and more.
Revolting against the mischiefs, misdeeds and the many vices
of the people of Mecca, he chose a spot two or three miles away
for his meditations. This was on top of a hill, a sort of cave
shaped out of stone. His wife Khadija would prepare food
enough for several days, and with this he would repair to the
cave Hira. In the cave he would worship God day and night.
When he was forty years of age, he saw a vision. It was in this
very cave. He saw some one commanding him to recite.
16. The Prophet said in reply he did not know what or how to recite. The figure insisted and at last made the Prophet
recite the following verses :
Recite thou in the name of thy Lord Who created, created
man from a clot of blood. Recite ! And thy Lord is the Most
Beneficent, Who taught man by the pen, taught man what he
knew not (96 : 2-6).
17. These verses, the first ever revealed to the Prophet, became
part of the Quran as did other verses which were revealed later.
They have tremendous meaning. They command the Prophet
to stand up and be ready to proclaim the name of the One God,
the One Creator-of the Prophet and of all others-Who has
made man and sowed the seed of His own love and that of
fellow-men in his nature. The Prophet was commanded to
proclaim the Message of this God, and was promised help and
protection by Him in the proclamation of this Message. The
verses foretold a time when the world would be taught all
manner of knowledge through the instrumentality of the pen,
and would be taught things never heard of before. The verses
constitute an epitome of the Quran. Whatever the Prophet
was to be taught in later revelations is contained in embryo in
these verses. The foundation was laid in them of a great and
heretofore unknown advance in the spiritual progress of man.
The meaning and explanation of these verses will be found in
their place in this Commentary.
18. We refer to them here because
their revelation constitutes a great occasion in the life of the
Prophet. When the Prophet received this revelation, he was
full of fear of the responsibility which God had decided to
place on his shoulders. Any other person in his place would
have been filled with pride-he would have felt that he had
become great. The Prophet was different. He could achieve
great things but could take no pride in his achievement.
19. After this great experience he reached home greatly agitated,
his face drawn. On Khadija’s enquiry, he narrated the whole
experience to her and summed up his fears, saying, “Weak man
that I am, how can I carry the responsibility which God
proposes to put on my shoulders.” Khadija replied at once :
God is witness, He has not sent you this Word that you should
fail and prove unworthy, that He should then give you up.
20. How can God do such a thing, while you are kind and consider-
ate to your relations, help the poor and the forlorn and bear
their burdens ? You are restoring the virtues which had disap-
peared from our country. You treat guests with honour and
help those who are in distress. Can you be subjected by God
to any trial ? ( B u k h a r i ) .
Having said this, Khadija took the Prophet to her cousin,
Waraqa bin Naufal, a Christian. When he heard the account
Waraqa said :
“The angel who descended on Moses, I am sure, has de-
scended on you” (Bukhari).
Unquote
Thanks
- Status