A philosophical question pertaining to self-driving cars

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If he got rid of the cockle right now, immediately, then you and I might be destroyed.
Might or might not. But our personal existence is not important.
But if he waits and suffers us for a while we might be made into wheat.
Now you depict God as sitting on a cloud, nervously biting his fingernails and waiting in anticipation if some “bad” people will have a change of heart. In the meantime the show must go on, with all the atrocities. What happened to omniscience? Better stop this line. It has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
 
Might or might not. But our personal existence is not important.
speak for yourself.
Now you depict God as sitting on a cloud, nervously biting his fingernails and waiting in anticipation if some “bad” people will have a change of heart. In the meantime the show must go on, with all the atrocities. What happened to omniscience? Better stop this line. It has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
No, you depict him. Speak for yourself.
If you don’t want something then you won’t be forced. Did your sweetheart pin your ears back to make you like her?..:)🤷
 
Well, at last! That is what I was hoping for.

Thank you for presenting exactly the “argument” which is brought forth by the proponents of unbridled free will. 🙂 And presenting how utterly irrational that “argument” is. No rational designer, constructor would allow “freedom” which would counteract the basic design aim of the creation.

And since God is “supposed” to be rational, we must accept the conclusion that the current state of affairs is exactly the one that God intended and desired from the get-go.
The designer of the SDC isn’t giving it any “freedom” at all, only programming it to compute some data. Those who have done it have described their projects in this thread.

I need you to respect my suffering, because I’m vulnerable.
 

  1. Even if some are brought upon us by our own decisions, they still must be in accordance with that “plan” of God. As we agreed, the good designer only allows “free will”, which does not disrupt the workings of the system.
  2. If our decisions cannot “alter the plan”, then what use is having freedom in the first place? We could just as well be puppets on a string.
Some levels of technology help people disrupt the system, e.g if that asteroid gets pushed out of the way or broken up, I fear it will probably unbalance other bodies or release radiation or debris.

This is where sense of responsibility comes in. God wants human participation in bringing the plan to fruition. If church members take sufficient responsibility to demonstrate that they can love each other, as Joel Osteen points out, outsiders will see something they want be in on.
 
The designer of the SDC isn’t giving it any “freedom” at all, only programming it to compute some data.
Of course they did. But only a limited amount of freedom. Choosing a speed between some limits based upon the road conditions, the traffic and the weather. That is freedom. Everything that is not deterministically prescribed is freedom. You do the same, when driving a car. You are not consciously aware of all the conditions around you. Your subconscious processes the data without you being aware of it, and gives the proper pressure to the gas and brake, based upon the conditions.
 
Of course they did. But only a limited amount of freedom. Choosing a speed between some limits based upon the road conditions, the traffic and the weather. That is freedom. Everything that is not deterministically prescribed is freedom. You do the same, when driving a car. You are not consciously aware of all the conditions around you. Your subconscious processes the data without you being aware of it, and gives the proper pressure to the gas and brake, based upon the conditions.
They programmed it to compute specific items of data, perhaps including a programme to gather further items of data.

In your own life freedom is about growth in responsibility-taking, even if you are an agnostic atheist.
 
They programmed it to compute specific items of data, perhaps including a programme to gather further items of data.
And to rearrange their own internal structure if the new data warrants it. I hope you will see the significance of this. Because that is what “learning” is.
In your own life freedom is about growth in responsibility-taking, even if you are an agnostic atheist.
That can be part of it (and a good part, too), but not a necessary part. As Winston Smith said in Orwell’s “1984”: “Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two makes four. If that is granted, everything else follows”.
 
And to rearrange their own internal structure if the new data warrants it. I hope you will see the significance of this. Because that is what “learning” is.
Only data learning.
That can be part of it (and a good part, too), but not a necessary part. As Winston Smith said in Orwell’s “1984”: “Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two makes four. If that is granted, everything else follows”.
It is a necessary part in your life. That IS “two plus two makes four”.
 
And to rearrange their own internal structure if the new data warrants it. I hope you will see the significance of this. Because that is what “learning” is.
Only data pertaining to the programming, and still according to the programming. The car will never be able to, for example, select a scenic route close to the beach based on its personal preferences, as it is irrelevant AND it has no preferences to speak of.

What you call freedom is still only programming. The car can choose only the best route (based on terrain, weather, traffic and distance) because you programmed it to “choose” only the best route. In other words, the car can’t choose anything, as all its “choices” are actually **your **choices…
That can be part of it (and a good part, too), but not a necessary part. As Winston Smith said in Orwell’s “1984”: “Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two makes four. If that is granted, everything else follows”.
Heh, that was terribly “misquoted”, IMO. The quote comes from a character trying to assert his right to believe in his own version of reality (in this case, on objective truth that 2+2=4) against a collective party that tries to force him into believing that reality “is only in the mind of the Party…Whatever the Party holds to be truth, is truth.” (in which 2+2 sometimes is 5)

While in context that is freedom (he can insist on his own version of the truth against someone forcing another version onto him), on our discussion (car programming) that is the exact opposite: we are the Party forcing the car into doing what we tell him is the truth. The car is Winston in our situation, but unlike him, the car can’t insist on its own view of reality and, thus, can’t have freedom like Winston. 😛
 
Only data pertaining to the programming, and still according to the programming. The car will never be able to, for example, select a scenic route close to the beach based on its personal preferences, as it is irrelevant AND it has no preferences to speak of.

What you call freedom is still only programming. The car can choose only the best route (based on terrain, weather, traffic and distance) because you programmed it to “choose” only the best route. In other words, the car can’t choose anything, as all its “choices” are actually **your **choices…
The trouble with your understanding is that you probably know very little (or nothing) about the ways and means of self-teaching and self-modifying systems. Also that you take the stipulated scenario “verbatim” and not just as an illustration of the evolutionary process.

Yes, there is a starting point, which was programmed by the programmer. (Just like we have a starting set of information processing. Nature, versus nurture.) Then the program starts to modify itself, randomly. Most of the attempts are useless, and in that case another path is chosen. The point is that even the originally “programmed” aims can be overridden and the final product does not resemble the original at all. It will choose new aims and new methods to reach them. There is no significant difference between human learning and the machine learning. Both are processing new data, incorporating the new data into the system, modifying the processing algorithm. Forget the Asimovian “three laws of robotics”. Let your imagination roam. That is where the fun begins.
Heh, that was terribly “misquoted”, IMO.
You missed the point. The libertarian definition of free will has three parts.
  1. There is an aim that we want to achieve.
  2. There are at least two ways to achieve it.
  3. The locus of decision is with the agent.
Observe, it says nothing about the internal structure of the agent. HOW the agent reaches the decision is irrelevant. What matters is that it is HIS decision, not forced or imposed from the outside.

Now this brings up an interesting problem. How free are we, humans from our upbringing (programming)? During our developing years we learn certain behavioral methods. For example: “do not torture animals”. If these methods are very deeply ingrained, we would not give in to some urge and would not torture animals. We certainly COULD, but we do not want to do it. Does this man that we are “not free” to choose “not to torture”? Just think about it.
 
Pallas, you must have noticed in your own life that you haven’t been “programmed” like a machine and that you are free.
 
The trouble with your understanding is that you probably know very little (or nothing) about the ways and means of self-teaching and self-modifying systems. Also that you take the stipulated scenario “verbatim” and not just as an illustration of the evolutionary process.

Yes, there is a starting point, which was programmed by the programmer. (Just like we have a starting set of information processing. Nature, versus nurture.) Then the program starts to modify itself, randomly. Most of the attempts are useless, and in that case another path is chosen. The point is that even the originally “programmed” aims can be overridden and the final product does not resemble the original at all. It will choose new aims and new methods to reach them. There is no significant difference between human learning and the machine learning. (tell that to scientists studying AI) Both are processing new data, incorporating the new data into the system, modifying the processing algorithm. Forget the Asimovian “three laws of robotics”. Let your imagination roam. That is where the fun begins.
This is all about learning process, and nothing more. A computer will be able to gather and use data, but this “using” is limited.

The data collected is also limited, but for the sake of argument, let’t pretend a machine is able to have every information I currently have. Chances are, it will crash, as it doesn’t know exactly what it is supposed to be doing (my current situation :p).

Best case scenario, it will try to take over the world, based on some of my “wants”. It will study hard, pass entrance exams to great Universities, learn German and be successful at life. What it won’t do is laze around, like me with my silly free will.

Still, no freedom for Machine-Me.

No, seriously, ask yourself: what would a machine do if it had enough information to do it? What would a machine want?
You missed the point. The libertarian definition of free will has three parts.
  1. There is an aim that we want to achieve.
  2. There are at least two ways to achieve it.
  3. The locus of decision is with the agent.
Observe, it says nothing about the internal structure of the agent. HOW the agent reaches the decision is irrelevant. What matters is that it is HIS decision, not forced or imposed from the outside.
So I was still on point. How Winston reached his decision was irrelevant (and I didn’t even dwell on it, why did you bring this up?), but the decision was his, and not the Party’s.

Again, differently from the car: it can’t make a decision that was not programmed into it, directly or indirectly.
Now this brings up an interesting problem. How free are we, humans from our upbringing (programming)? During our developing years we learn certain behavioral methods. For example: “do not torture animals”. If these methods are very deeply ingrained, we would not give in to some urge and would not torture animals. We certainly COULD, but we do not want to do it. Does this man that we are “not free” to choose “not to torture”? Just think about it.
How free are we: look at animals and then look at us. We all have the same basic programming - we feel hungry, thirsty, lust, tiredness.

Take tiredness.

An animal, when tired, will sleep. If it cannot find a good/safe place to sleep it will look for it. It will keep looking for it unless something more urgent (say, hunger, thirst, potty time) shows up, and whenever a good place is found, it will rest. It follows the program.

Humans, however, don’t work that way. Proof of that is the many teens right now who, even though they are tired, would rather keep on playing their MMO games (or watching Netflix) instead of sleeping. Sometimes, they keep on playing instead of peeing (and end up soiling themselves).

Though I’ll admit: we are looking more and more like animals nowadays, with pleasure as the main reason of our every action. Virtues are devalued; anyone trying to live up to any virtue is judged as some sort of deranged fool.

Virtues are usually the proof of our free will. Even though we can eat more, we stop ourselves when sated. Even though we can sleep more, we stop ourselves when rested. Even though we can hoard more, we donate what little we have.

We are capable of going against the “program” if we so want. You just need to try.

You bring up an interesting point, in that our development has a say in it. From what I got from it (I actually had a course on this in Nurse school), it is not really a programming, but a learned behavior. “If you do wrong, you are punished”, so obviously most of us will choose not to do wrong. And yet, there are the little devils (guilt here, I was a pest) who like to test the rules and often go against them. I didn’t kill animals, but I did bite down on my cousin’s finger until I heard a crunch. I used my free will for evil, and as bad as that is, it is proof that I had free will.
 
Pallas, you must have noticed in your own life that you haven’t been “programmed” like a machine and that you are free.
As a matter of fact, I have been “programmed”, quite seriously. Just a few examples of this “programming”. It happened (and not just once) that I found a wallet with money in it. The temptation was there to keep it, but I simply could not do it. When I found just a banknote (ten bucks) with no identification about the actual owner, then it was “finders - keepers”. Or something even less “serious”. When I travel on a public transportation, I am “forced” by my upbringing to offer my seat to someone who is in more pressing need than I am.

The question is here: “was I free to keep the money, or was my pre-programmed attitude which took over the decision process”. Yes, theoretically I was “free” to keep the wallet, but I could not have lived with the knowledge that I stole it.

These kinds of problems have no simple solutions. We have a certain amount of freedom, but it is always limited. Sometimes by the external circumstances, sometimes by our internal “programming”. And there is nothing wrong about it.
 
Again, differently from the car: it can’t make a decision that was not programmed into it, directly or indirectly.
There is no such thing as “indirect” programming.
You bring up an interesting point, in that our development has a say in it. From what I got from it (I actually had a course on this in Nurse school), it is not really a programming, but a learned behavior. “If you do wrong, you are punished”, so obviously most of us will choose not to do wrong.
The difference is merely semantics. 🙂 You can use these concepts interchangeably: “learned behavior”, “programming” or even “brainwashing”. If you disregard the emotional context, they all amount to the same thing… instilling a behavioral pattern. Soldiers are “brainwashed” to throw themselves onto a grenade to save their buddies.

Sorry for the short answer, but it is getting late, and I am not able to parse all the information you presented. My apologies.
 
There is no such thing as “indirect” programming.
You seemed to think so, with all that talk about learning. I imagined you’d see someone/something “learning” a new order as it indirectly learning a new program. Just a guess; it seems I was wrong, and for that I am sorry. Still, the argument stands.
The difference is merely semantics. 🙂 You can use these concepts interchangeably: “learned behavior”, “programming” or even “brainwashing”. If you disregard the emotional context, they all amount to the same thing… instilling a behavioral pattern. Soldiers are “brainwashed” to throw themselves onto a grenade to save their buddies.
No, it is not. You can’t just say that “a **choice **I made not to be punished” (= learned behavior) is just another word for “brainwashed”, specially considering that brainwashing implies a loss of decisive powers. Even when two words mean almost the same things (which is **NOT **the case here), they always have nuances, and you can’t just ignore them. :confused:

I wasn’t brainwashed into not drawing on the walls. I just learned that, if I do draw on the walls, I’ll either have to clean it all (likely) or be put on time-out (unlikely, 26yo). And yet, I did help my little brother paint the walls just over 4 years ago because, despite my learned behavior, I still was capable of choosing what to do. I still retained my decisive powers.
Sorry for the short answer, but it is getting late, and I am not able to parse all the information you presented. My apologies.
Sure, take your time. I think I’m done here.
 
… Yes, theoretically I was “free” to keep the wallet, but I could not have lived with the knowledge that I stole it.

These kinds of problems have no simple solutions. …
  • you have taught yourself well for these situations (or freely accepted the teaching of your parents)
  • you admit to values so your freedom then is not only theoretical
  • you admit life is complicated
I tricked you into admitting you have a soul!
 
Now this brings up an interesting problem. How free are we, humans from our upbringing (programming)? During our developing years we learn certain behavioral methods. For example: “do not torture animals”. If these methods are very deeply ingrained, we would not give in to some urge and would not torture animals. We certainly COULD, but we do not want to do it. Does this man that we are “not free” to choose “not to torture”? Just think about it.
There are interesting experiments on this. For instance, people who do not much interaction with those of another skin color tend to develop an unconscious fear response to faces of another ethnicity. If those around them are not racist then they will learn to unconsciously control that response. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_and_race

But interestingly, a short virtual reality session changes racist tendencies (whether permanently it’s too soon to tell). - bbc.com/news/science-environment-23709836

All of which indicates we are to some extent products of our upbringing.
 
I’m skipping through the thread a bit so I apologizeif I missed something. I’m merely addressing the philosophical angle that was originally brought up, i.e. how much autonomy should we give automated cars.

I would argue that this truly is purely a practical question with no philosophical ramifications. Humans have already been using programmed automatons with limited decision making capability for transportation for millenia. We call them horses, and in some places elephants. Horses and elephants do everything that we want automated cars to do, they just arent as efficient and they have their own personality quirks like rearing up when scared.

Humans now live in noisy congested cities that are unfit for our traditional methods of assisted transportation. We are trying to design synthetic horses, but it is exceedingly difficult, and likely impossible. It took billions of years for the horse to come along, and thousands for us to train them to work with us to meet our needs safely.

The question of free will needn’t really enter into it. Horses take us where we want to go of their own free will, they just have to be trained to have their natural impulses guided by the rider, and vis versa.

As for how much freedom to give them, we need to give them enough to take us somewhere safely on their own, but not so much that the vehicles impulses jeopardize human safety. Exactly like training horses.

Peace and God bless!
 
The implications of this with autonomous robots in warfare is much hairier :confused: Especially with the halting problem and decisions by robots on whether or not to kill a particular target
 
The implications of this with autonomous robots in warfare is much hairier :confused: Especially with the halting problem and decisions by robots on whether or not to kill a particular target
Sounds a lot like the problems we have with human soldiers, except they come back wounded in many ways that a machine can’t be. We aren’t gonna be solving these problems with machines, that’s for sure.

The fascination with A.I., which is really nothing more than building poorly in a short time what nature has built fabulously over millenia, doesn’t make much sense to me.

We haven’t left the Garden, folks. We’ve just mucked it up real bad and now we are trying to synthetically replace the gifts we’ve too quickly set aside. That’s how I view it, anyway.

Peace and God bless!
 
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