A Quaker Understanding...

[ricmat]

God is the Builder we are the mortar and material…He has all the Tools to use on us as He needs.

Yes, but he also wants us to participate in our own salvation. He gave us some tools to that end, and the free will to use them or not.

Since there is no universal Quaker agreement (dogma) regarding homosexual sex, gay marriage, contraception, and abortion, it looks to me like God’s light is working better for some Quakers than others. Maybe the Quakers should take another look through the toolbox.

Moral issues such as I list above are not a matter of personal opinion. God wants you all to find the right answer. And it can’t go both ways.

 

[Publisher]

Yes, but he also wants us to participate in our own salvation. He gave us some tools to that end, and the free will to use them or not.

Since there is no universal Quaker agreement (dogma) regarding homosexual sex, gay marriage, contraception, and abortion, it looks to me like God’s light is working better for some Quakers than others. Maybe the Quakers should take another look through the toolbox.

Moral issues such as I list above are not a matter of personal opinion. God wants you all to find the right answer. And it can’t go both ways.

Friend…you and I will never agree unless you become a Friend…and then…maybe not even then. I will continue to work next to you and lift you to the Light as I hope you will me.

I seek to work out my salvation with fear and trembling…it IS a weighty repsonsibility to seek God will and carry it out as He leads. Each of us must take our repsonsibility seriously…“There is One, even Christ Jesus that can speak to our condition”…I commend both of us to His care and leading.

Peace to you friend.

 

[erichael]

Publisher, forty years ago my brother was a flower-child who, to avoid the war in Vietnam decided to call himself a Quaker after attending three meetings. He was seventeen about to turn eighteen and the draft loomed large. He was excused from active duty or any kind of duty at all although he did have the option of peacetime service state side which he refused on the expectation he would be going directly from his high school graduation to a Quaker pulpit. In the ten years that followed he managed a bar in Wisconsin until the Holy Spirit reminded him of his hipocrisy at which point he was given a Meeting Place of his own on the strength of two letters from established Quakers who thought he might do a good job. To his credit or as I see it, to his utter destruction, he stayed the course this time and has been preaching a twisted gospel, a doctrine of demons ever since. He has absolutely no education or degree in theology and to me, it is a classic case of the blind leading the blind to wit all shall fall into the ditch.

I have always believed that my brother and his family would have long ago departed ways with their Friends had they been sitting in the pews. Unfortunately for him, he can’t just pick up and leave this narrow-minded enclave and return to the Church, THE ONLY CHURCH OF GOD, because he has too much to lose, i.e. his home (a parsonage of which he never in thirty years paid a single months rent on the mortgage); his vehicle, his only means of transportation in a part of the country one cannot be without wheels; his income which I understand is substantial, at least it has always allowed him two cruises a year and an annual trip around the globe to see how the other half live; and his entire lifestyle which incidentally isn’t anything like the Quaker fathers set out, not even close.

There are many lights in this world, Publisher. There is the blue light, which is a K-Mart special, and a red light which is a district for prostitutes and their johns, and a dazzling light which is the deceit of the devil. The only true light comes from Christ which is the Church. How can you be so sure you’ve not been dazzled and are unable to see the true light in all of its glory. You are only seeing a splinter. There is so much more.

 

[erichael]

Publisher, so sorry about the “duh” remark. This is only my third post and I’m learning how it works by trial and error. It was never my intention to be rude to you or sarcastic. Please forgive me.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, forty years ago my brother was a flower-child who, to avoid the war in Vietnam decided to call himself a Quaker after attending three meetings. He was seventeen about to turn eighteen and the draft loomed large. He was excused from active duty or any kind of duty at all although he did have the option of peacetime service state side which he refused on the expectation he would be going directly from his high school graduation to a Quaker pulpit. In the ten years that followed he managed a bar in Wisconsin until the Holy Spirit reminded him of his hipocrisy at which point he was given a Meeting Place of his own on the strength of two letters from established Quakers who thought he might do a good job. To his credit or as I see it, to his utter destruction, he stayed the course this time and has been preaching a twisted gospel, a doctrine of demons ever since. He has absolutely no education or degree in theology and to me, it is a classic case of the blind leading the blind to wit all shall fall into the ditch.

I have always believed that my brother and his family would have long ago departed ways with their Friends had they been sitting in the pews. Unfortunately for him, he can’t just pick up and leave this narrow-minded enclave and return to the Church, THE ONLY CHURCH OF GOD, because he has too much to lose, i.e. his home (a parsonage of which he never in thirty years paid a single months rent on the mortgage); his vehicle, his only means of transportation in a part of the country one cannot be without wheels; his income which I understand is substantial, at least it has always allowed him two cruises a year and an annual trip around the globe to see how the other half live; and his entire lifestyle which incidentally isn’t anything like the Quaker fathers set out, not even close.

There are many lights in this world, Publisher. There is the blue light, which is a K-Mart special, and a red light which is a district for prostitutes and their johns, and a dazzling light which is the deceit of the devil. The only true light comes from Christ which is the Church. How can you be so sure you’ve not been dazzled and are unable to see the true light in all of its glory. You are only seeing a splinter. There is so much more.

Friend, I will hold your brother in the Light. I would not equate one Quaker minister’s experience as normative for othe Friends…no more than I would claim that one priest who fell into sin is “normative” for all priests.

There is only One Light…once experienced…alll others “lights” are but pale shadows compared to the “Light that enlightens every man…”

As far as the ‘splinter’…I am always reminded to remove the board in my eye before I seek to remove the splinter in someone else’s.

How can I be sure I hav not been “dazzled” and unable to see? I have stood in the Presence and experience His amazing love and mercy…no man being baptized in the Holy Spirit can remain unchanged…“I know Whom I have believed in, and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”…That makes all the difference in the world…“I know Whom I have believed in…and He is able to keep what I have commited.”

We are in Good Hands.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, so sorry about the “duh” remark. This is only my third post and I’m learning how it works by trial and error. It was never my intention to be rude to you or sarcastic. Please forgive me.

LOL…no problem friend…I understand…posting is not an easy medium at times to navigate.

 

[Edward_H]

My wife is a former Quaker. Before we married we each attended each other’s Sunday Meetings / Mass.

At the time I wasn’t a strong or well practicing Catholic; she wasn’t a well formed Quaker either; for family reasons we were married under the care of the Meeting.

Over time for some time, we Church/Meeting shopped, but she ended up telling me that she wanted to go through RCIA. She converted and actually brought me back to the Church.

My experiences in several Meetings on the east coast, was that there were some Quakers (the much older ones) who seemed to have a strong understanding of their Faith. And they Loved to, living their Faith in service.

But the large majority of them, would give off this “high minded liberalism”…and the “messages” given at the Meetings would so frequently be political and often be rambling.

Then they’d shake hands at the end of the Meeting and that was it.

No recognition of Christ’s suffering, the Father’s gift to us…No adoration, no thanksgiving, no sorrow, no penance, nothing.

I love my parents in law…but there is just something quietly dismissive about their way. Even my wife says so.

They’re perhaps overly proud about their professed simplicity and humility (fancy cars, house, trimmings, gadgets). This generation seems a bit less service oriented, instead asking the government to do the work of God.

One interesting personal habit seems to be “over elaboration” and a desire to always put the finishing touches on any conversation.

 

[Publisher]

My wife is a former Quaker. Before we married we each attended each other’s Sunday Meetings / Mass.

At the time I wasn’t a strong or well practicing Catholic; she wasn’t a well formed Quaker either; for family reasons we were married under the care of the Meeting.

Over time for some time, we Church/Meeting shopped, but she ended up telling me that she wanted to go through RCIA. She converted and actually brought me back to the Church.

My experiences in several Meetings on the east coast, was that there were some Quakers (the much older ones) who seemed to have a strong understanding of their Faith. And they Loved to, living their Faith in service.

But the large majority of them, would give off this “high minded liberalism”…and the “messages” given at the Meetings would so frequently be political and often be rambling.

Then they’d shake hands at the end of the Meeting and that was it.

No recognition of Christ’s suffering, the Father’s gift to us…No adoration, no thanksgiving, no sorrow, no penance, nothing.

I love my parents in law…but there is just something quietly dismissive about their way. Even my wife says so.

They’re perhaps overly proud about their professed simplicity and humility (fancy cars, house, trimmings, gadgets). This generation seems a bit less service oriented, instead asking the government to do the work of God.

One interesting personal habit seems to be “over elaboration” and a desire to always put the finishing touches on any conversation.

In the 37 years I have been a Friend and attending Meeting…I have seen “good Quakers” and “bad Quakers”…“liberal Quakers” and “conservative Quakers”…I have found for myself…that when I prepare for Meeting before hand…I get much more out of it…just like any other faith tradition…there are those who are “nominal” and those who are not.

I cannot speak to the condition of your in laws…only to my own experience among Friends…and what I have learned and experienced in Meeting speaks to my condition as no other faith expression ever has.

 

[erichael]

Friend, I will hold your brother in the Light. I would not equate one Quaker minister’s experience as normative for othe Friends…no more than I would claim that one priest who fell into sin is “normative” for all priests.

There is only One Light…once experienced…alll others “lights” are but pale shadows compared to the “Light that enlightens every man…”

As far as the ‘splinter’…I am always reminded to remove the board in my eye before I seek to remove the splinter in someone else’s.

How can I be sure I hav not been “dazzled” and unable to see? I have stood in the Presence and experience His amazing love and mercy…no man being baptized in the Holy Spirit can remain unchanged…“I know Whom I have believed in, and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”…That makes all the difference in the world…“I know Whom I have believed in…and He is able to keep what I have commited.”

We are in Good Hands.

Well said! You use the same quotes I would have used. And you are right, there are several priests that shame us all. And you are wrong, I wasn’t trying to remove the splinter from your eye, rather I would enlarge it to encompass a bigger definition of Christian.

 

[Edward_H]

In the 37 years I have been a Friend and attending Meeting…I have seen “good Quakers” and “bad Quakers”…“liberal Quakers” and “conservative Quakers”…I have found for myself…that when I prepare for Meeting before hand…I get much more out of it…just like any other faith tradition…there are those who are “nominal” and those who are not.

I cannot speak to the condition of your in laws…only to my own experience among Friends…and what I have learned and experienced in Meeting speaks to my condition as no other faith expression ever has.

Publisher. Great points.

In one small way, however, you’ve confirmed my past encounters with Quakers: “…what I have learned and experienced…speaks to my condition…”. Really? It is this sort of verbal handstand that distances Quakers from the rest of humanity. It’s not really expressing intellectual or spiritual substance as much as it comes off as a groping for self-satisfaction.

Peace.

 

[erichael]

Publisher, I do see you have the love of God in you. It is obvious by your posts. May I tell you it was a long road to Rome for me with many mishaps along the way and for every step forward I took two steps back. Whenever I became overwhelmed with doctrine and who said what and when, et cetera, I longed for the simplicity of the Quaker life. For me that simplicity morphed into a sense of nothingness. There were no prayers to memorize or devotions to complete. Nothing much to do that I could see and although I felt something, I wanted more. Consequently I always returned to the Church and each time I went away only to come back four or five months later, I grew in strength.

For me the decision to join the Church in full communion with all the bells and whistles came down to the Eucharist. Publisher, would it surprise you to know there are many, many parishioners as well as priests who do not believe in the Real Prescence. It is a hard thing. It is a mystery. Once a convert comes to the realization and many do not, that the Eucharist is the be all and end all of what it means to be Catholic with a big C, there is no going back. I long ago crossed the line where I could sit on the fence and waffle between the utter simplicity the Quakers practised and the convoluted dogma of the faith. And that is no overstatement. It’s like I know too much now to ever go back. Once I grasped, really really grasped what the Real Prescence was all about, I gained the spiritual fortitude to stay within the faith. Before that I was a soccer ball being kicked about by the devil from one playing field to the other. In other words, until I learned what it is to be Catholic, I was unable to make the commitment necessary to join the communion of believers.

I also believe that my brother had everything to do with my choosing Catholocism. I was so ashamed of him and was so determined to be his exact opposite that I deliberately chose the furthest thing from Quakers possible and surely you can agree your faith and mine are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Having said all that, I will admit there are still times when the beauty of your faith is very attractive, especially when I’m tired or bored and unable to fulfil my devotional obligations. The bottom line, I think, is we are in good hands just as you said. Our Father does know what is best for each of his children and takes care of us accordingly. I hope we, at least, can be “friends”.

 

[erichael]

One telling difference between myself, an old-school Catholic, and my brother, a Quaker pastor is this. He recently told his congregation, oh sorry, his “friends” that when he dies he fully expects to stride through the gates of heaven to wild acclaim of, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” The sad thing is he really believes this.

Now it may be that this fairytale may become an actuality for him. I cannot say. In fact, it is not for me to say. However, I can say this that when I think of my “crossing over”, I see it so very differently from my brother. I see myself timidly scraping at heaven’s gates and assuming they are opened to me a sinner, I will crawl through those gates like the worm that I am. I will seek the feet of Jesus upon which I will bathe those feet of His in my tears of gratitude that he deigned to allow me that far.

The point I am making or perhaps mangling is this. One man, a Quaker, lives without any outward form of meekness and brags to his “friends” his vision and expectations of what it will be like for him and his wife when they go to meet Jesus while another man, a Catholic hopes for such an outcome, but isn’t expecting to stride through those pearly gates a winner looking for the finest seat in the house.

My faith teaches humility which I find horribly lacking in my Quaker brother. What quakerish lie does he tell himself to justify such a bold expectation of glory. He often boasts of his rewards due to him because of the life he has led, I suppose. Is this arrogant attitude typical of all Quakers?

How can people not be turned off by such smugness?

 

[Publisher]

Publisher. Great points.

In one small way, however, you’ve confirmed my past encounters with Quakers: “…what I have learned and experienced…speaks to my condition…”. Really? It is this sort of verbal handstand that distances Quakers from the rest of humanity. It’s not really expressing intellectual or spiritual substance as much as it comes off as a groping for self-satisfaction.

Peace.

I’m in no position to gauge the inner workings of those Friends you have known…so I don’t know how to answer your assertion concerning “verbal handstands” or “not really expressing intellectual or spiritual substance”…and I certainly have no insight into whether any particular Friend is “groping for self-satisfaction” or not. I commend you for your deep insight however…I’m sure they would be surprised at your estimation.

I find I am at a loss how to “defend” myself against your assertions as well. The verse of scripture that came to mind when reading your post dealt with the disciples of John…who came to Jesus asking if "he was the one …or should they look for another…“The blind see, the lame walk, the hungry are fed…”

I am humbled to be among such Friends as I have known…I wish you the same “experience” to know them.

Peace to you friend.

 

[waxwing]

Hi Publisher

I have found this thread to be very interesting, and you by all accounts the sole Quaker on the thread have presented yourself and views with class and coherence. I was wondering how one becomes a official Quaker. By that I mean, in the Catholic and in some cases Protestants churches it is sacramental through baptism that one enters the church. My understanting (it is very limited) is that Quakerism is unsacramental - at least in the Catholic sense. If thats the case how does one enter the church.

Thanks

 

[seeker57]

Hey Publisher,

Quite an interesting thread.

I find your devotion to living your faith every day in all you do and seeing the divine in every person particularly interesting, as I do that the Society of Friends is pretty much non-doctrinal.

Those concepts fit very well with my belief system as well.

We are much more alike than I realized.

Seeker

 

[Publisher]

Hi Publisher

I have found this thread to be very interesting, and you by all accounts the sole Quaker on the thread have presented yourself and views with class and coherence. I was wondering how one becomes a official Quaker. By that I mean, in the Catholic and in some cases Protestants churches it is sacramental through baptism that one enters the church. My understanting (it is very limited) is that Quakerism is unsacramental - at least in the Catholic sense. If thats the case how does one enter the church.

Thanks

Once one is “convinced” of the Truth held in the Society of Friends, one petitions the Monthly Meeting to be named among it’s members. The “petition” goes before a “membership committee” and the perspective Friend is interviewed and asked why they wish to be among us…then at the next Monthly Meeting for Business, one is presented and if no one objects…one is added to the rolls of the Monthly Meeting with all rights and priveleges of membership.

 

[ricmat]

Once one is “convinced” of the Truth held in the Society of Friends, one petitions the Monthly Meeting to be named among it’s members. The “petition” goes before a “membership committee” and the perspective Friend is interviewed and asked why they wish to be among us…then at the next Monthly Meeting for Business, one is presented and if no one objects…one is added to the rolls of the Monthly Meeting with all rights and priveleges of membership.

This sort of sounds like a country club. Or a fraternity.

I like the Catholic view better that the Church is a hospital for sinners. All are welcome. No one can be black balled.

 

[ricmat]

Hey Publisher,

Quite an interesting thread.

I find your devotion to living your faith every day in all you do and seeing the divine in every person particularly interesting, as I do that the Society of Friends is pretty much non-doctrinal.

Those concepts fit very well with my belief system as well.

We are much more alike than I realized.

Seeker

Seeker, I think you’ve uncovered a fundamental truth here. This seems to be the story of Protestantism, continuing to the present day. I have a belief system, I don’t like what church X teaches, so I’ll look for another that meets my fancy. But no way am I going to change MY beliefs! And if I can’t find a church that conforms to my beliefs, I’ll start my own church.

30,000+ and counting (it’s sort of like the national debt clock).

 

[erichael]

Seeker, I think you’ve uncovered a fundamental truth here. This seems to be the story of Protestantism, continuing to the present day. I have a belief system, I don’t like what church X teaches, so I’ll look for another that meets my fancy. But no way am I going to change MY beliefs! And if I can’t find a church that conforms to my beliefs, I’ll start my own church.

30,000+ and counting (it’s sort of like the national debt clock).

Exactly so! I think it was Pope John Paul the Great who said “outside of the Catholilc Church everything else is a social club…” Forgive me if I’ve mangled it, but this is true. These people will do their own thing all the way to hell.

Quakers have come a long way in the past forty years or so. My buddy asked to be married in the Friends Church of Whittier, California and was refused because his future spouse had been previously married and this somehow tainted him. Yet, today according to Publisher two men or two women can be married without any scruples involved. In ten years they’ll be marrying beasts. This is such a joke and there is nothing of the sacred to be found in these people. They think they know more than our Fathers Cyril and Ignatius and Augustine. The problem is they know nothing and by all accounts don’t want to know anything but what they feel. If it feels good, must be God.

Don’t you just love the way Publisher riddles his posts with quotes from Holy Writ and yet denegrates the Bible as being full of myths even denying our Lord’s virgin birth. Why is he even on a Catholic blog? Wouldn’t he find more “friends” on a Quaker website? And just for the record for those of us old enough to remember, Nixon was a Quaker. His home church was in Whittier, Calilfornia. He didn’t seem to have any problem sending an entire generation of young men to their deaths in Vietnam. I guess he never felt the urge to avoid war at all costs.

 

[Publisher]

This sort of sounds like a country club. Or a fraternity.

I like the Catholic view better that the Church is a hospital for sinners. All are welcome. No one can be black balled.

LOL…we are a “society” of like minded people…seeking to serve God…those who come to “convincement” seeks to join like minded beleivers…we have already been Baptized into Christ by His Spirit…and confirmed a member of His Church by the regeneration of our spirits…we are not petitioning to be “saved”…just to count ourselves among this particular Meeting of Christ’s Friends.

We do not exclude any one…if a question were to arise concerning the “petitioner”…we would discuss what it was that we are concerned over…we would discuss…pray and seek to come to an understanding that the one requesting membership does indeed understand the commitment one makes to the Meeting…and what commitment the Meeting makes to the perspective “Friend”.