A question about MARRIAGE and the Church

[choose_to_love]

@deb: I submit that the other spouse’s initial reaction could be as described, but once the other spouse made clear that the love & commitment are still there, I think they would at least get to the discussion stage. I don’t remember without looking how long our hypo couple have thought they were married (hee hee), but I think you are selling the other spouse short, at least as far as immediate bailing on the marriage being the most probable reaction.

 

[Havard]

Hey Deb, did you catch my post #184?

 

[mtbender]

I guess I would ask if bringing the children up in what they now know as an adulterous relationship is in anyone’s best interest anyhow – except maybe the “husband” who has yet to acknowledge it. Now that she is aware of the truth, is it acceptable to ignore the truth and take the children farther away from the Church? Is that really in their best interest? Before I get jumped on, I am a strong proponent of a mother and father household, but it seems some folks on here are suggesting that relationship is more important than faith… but turning to God can never be the wrong answer.

If the “husband” chooses to abandon his family it would indicate the physical relationship carries way too much weight in that relationship. As for what the “husband” will do, that is on him. Would not the souls of the children and their mother be more important than a civil marriage?

As many have said, there are really only two options: Forgo the truth because it is too hard and uncomfortable or turn to God in prayer and live as brother and sister. The rest falls on the “husband”…

 

[vsedriver]

I think most non religious men, even if they are good people, would be completely confused and hurt and angry and betrayed by this. And I think they’d have every right to leave and date/marry someone else. I think very very few would actually say “ok honey, that’s fine… I will now see you as my sister.”

So yes, this would basically be asking the lady to break up her family because that is what would happen.

I don’t understand how you can say ‘that is what would happen’. That’s like saying if the woman is in a car accident, crippled and can’t have sex then her husband has a right to leave her.

If this man truly loves his wife, respects her, loves his children and his family why would he leave over not getting sex?

but I understand… to most people today the whole idea of putting your immortal soul and your relationship with God first is just so weird.

 

[GraceDK]

No, not in general, only when I’m open and honest about certain things haha.

**Yea, I have been there… the more personal it is- and it always is when it has to do with ones faith/identity - its hard to put it outhere … try looking some old stuff on Marian devotion written by me … basically … its GRACE when one comes to believe… and grace flows into open hearts, searching hearts that sincerely cry out to our Lord. CAF-environment is too fast… you are put on the defensive, you write and write the things you already think… there is no time for reflection here. **

Good advice, thanks. Reading books is great of course, though it would be nice if there were people I could talk to about certain things besides priests and my mom.

Where is your congregation? Don’t you have Catholic friends there you can talk to?

What made you want to convert?

** To the Catholic Church? The Eucharist The scales fell from my eyes at 21. Jesus decided it was time to reveal His very real and present existence to me… as Lord who is sitting on the couch next to me right now and cares about all things in my life… instead of a god far out in the universe. My life was turned upside down… it was the sweetest time in the life of my soul! The part about becoming Catholic because of the Eucharist came a couple of years later. The more I read about the teachings of the Church, the more I felt I came home, spiritually, intellectually, emotionally as a woman… etc. One of the greatest riches in the teaching of the Church, I found, was the theology of the Body… the “Love and Responsibility” by Karol Wojtyla… It just all makes me feel safe. I don’t know why, but it just felt like it clicked in my vulnerable sexual indentity… like the church protects me against use. I am happy to say I have never even touched a condom, and I can’t imagine this would change.
But we all struggle with different things. I love the book “Fear and Trembling” by Kierkegaard. He writes about how Abraham was seperated from all humanity, taken beyond whats ethical, at the request that he sacrifices his only son Isaac… The fear and trembling during his obedience… that’s what made him the father of all the faithful and God gave him the promise that his decendants would be as many as the stars, and the Saviour would come from his seed… God’s only son would come from the line of Abraham because of his obedience. I think we have become very lazy and blind in our time… I am among the worst. Anyway… sorry, I’m going off topic. **

 

[Castello]

I don’t understand how you can say ‘that is what would happen’. That’s like saying if the woman is in a car accident, crippled and can’t have sex then her husband has a right to leave her.

If this man truly loves his wife, respects her, loves his children and his family why would he leave over not getting sex?

but I understand… to most people today the whole idea of putting your immortal soul and your relationship with God first is just so weird.

Marriage is so much more than orgasms. Seems our society cannot grasp that.

 

[vsedriver]

Neither am I, but this is one of them. And for the haters, it’s “conflicted,” not “disagree with the Church.” The reason is that relationships and sex are basic, primal needs, like food. They existed before sin.

Divorce does create chaos. Sex does not insure against divorce.

 

[Havard]

If this man truly loves his wife, respects her, loves his children and his family why would he leave over not getting sex?

Great question. I understand confusion on the man’s part, but you hit the nail on the head with where I had been going. If this man really is a loving husband and father, it will show in his response to a situation like this.

 

[ValPal]

I don’t understand how you can say ‘that is what would happen’. That’s like saying if the woman is in a car accident, crippled and can’t have sex then her husband has a right to leave her.

If this man truly loves his wife, respects her, loves his children and his family why would he leave over not getting sex?

My opinion is that if comparisons are going to be made, make valid ones.

Situation #1 - A spouse is crippled. The marriage is strong.

Situation #2 - A spouse tells the other spouse that the marriage is not valid and sex is now out of the question.

Are these the same? Of course not, so there is no reason to treat them as if they are. If my wife came to me in Situation #2, I’d ask what she’s been smoking.

but I understand… to most people today the whole idea of putting your immortal soul and your relationship with God first is just so weird.

You assume that the spouse believes this…don’t make that assumption. People that aren’t Catholic are not going to be ready to take action for what they perceive is not a valid reason that can potentially damage their family and children. Protection of one’s family, especially children, is part of man’s primal nature, and a third party’s opinion on the matter is not going to change that.

These matters have to be tread on very, very lightly. The forceful nature of some of these posts will absolutely chase people from the Catholic faith. That, my friends, is real scandal.

 

[vsedriver]

I still think God’s will would be for the lady to maintain a marital relationship with her current husband, rather than risk breaking up the family to join the Church. It’s a shame the Church wouldn’t take her though.

God would never will someone to live in sin.

 

[ValPal]

Divorce does create chaos.

You’ve got to be kidding. Yes it does. It creates utter chaos in children’s lives, and I’ve seen this over and over again.

Sex does not insure against divorce.

The lack of sex most definitely encourages it if both spouses do not agree on the matter. The Catholic Church doesn’t discuss the obligations of marriage because they don’t have anything better to do. It is an extremely important part of marriage.

 

[Debora123]

Why? That is what makes this forum so fun.

The main reason I’m a revert is because there were to many obnoxious individuals on the other side in real life. I don’t see that in Catholicism too much, other than on forums like this. I find it amusing more than anything.

Same here buddy.

 

[Debora123]

@deb: I submit that the other spouse’s initial reaction could be as described, but once the other spouse made clear that the love & commitment are still there, I think they would at least get to the discussion stage. I don’t remember without looking how long our hypo couple have thought they were married (hee hee), but I think you are selling the other spouse short, at least as far as immediate bailing on the marriage being the most probable reaction.

I’m just trying to be realistic, really.

And it was 15 years lol.

 

[Castello]

You’ve got to be kidding. Yes it does. It creates utter chaos in children’s lives, and I’ve seen this over and over again.
.

Having unmarried parents, having parents who are not striving to reach heaven, that creates worse chaos.

 

[Debora123]

Hey Deb, did you catch my post #184?

Sorry, I missed it in all this mess.

I did describe in one of my earlier posts that the man is a good person, a good “husband” and a good father. But not religious at all.

I think I know where you’re going with this and I’m not sure it would work to say “oh, well if he’s a good father and a good person then he’d stay and be celibate with this woman who is not actually his wife for the sake of his children…”

A lot of people (even here on this forum) get separated and divorced and get their marriages annulled even though they are good people and love their children. Loving his children wouldn’t stop this man from rightfully separating and seeking a spouse.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t understand how you can say ‘that is what would happen’. That’s like saying if the woman is in a car accident, crippled and can’t have sex then her husband has a right to leave her.

If this man truly loves his wife, respects her, loves his children and his family why would he leave over not getting sex?

but I understand… to most people today the whole idea of putting your immortal soul and your relationship with God first is just so weird.

Sigh

No, actually it is not at ALL like saying that. And I’ve explained this multiple times now. The couple in your scenario are actually married, and have a duty to stay together for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. My scenario portrays a couple who would actually NOT be married (according to the Church), with a woman who is actually married to someone else and a man who is technically single. That man would have every right to find a spouse.

 

[Debora123]

GraceDK:
Thanks Grace!

And no, I don’t really have that many Catholic friends. I have a lot of protestant friends, but not really many Catholic ones.

I talk to my mother a lot who is a very devout woman and has a master’s degree in Theology from a Catholic University. And my family is also really close to our parish priest and a Jesuit priest who I consider to be my spiritual directer. And I must say, he sees a lot more grey areas in certain moral issues than many of the more strict members here.

Other than that, I don’t really have many Catholic “friends.”

 

[Debora123]

Great question. I understand confusion on the man’s part, but you hit the nail on the head with where I had been going. If this man really is a loving husband and father, it will show in his response to a situation like this.

Lol that’s the point that I keep repeating over and over again.

His wife would come home and tell him that he is NOT her husband, and that her husband is still the man she married over 20 years before and that their marriage is not valid and they aren’t really married.

And basically this is what the Church is saying. The man is not her husband, therefore he is free to marry someone.

And besides, even if they WERE validly married - not having sex needs to be a mutual decision. If one spouse withholds sex from the other, he very well may be free to seek an annulment. Marital debt.

 

[Debora123]

My opinion is that if comparisons are going to be made, make valid ones.

Situation #1 - A spouse is crippled. The marriage is strong.

Situation #2 - A spouse tells the other spouse that the marriage is not valid and sex is now out of the question.

Are these the same? Of course not, so there is no reason to treat them as if they are. If my wife came to me in Situation #2, I’d ask what she’s been smoking.

You assume that the spouse believes this…don’t make that assumption. People that aren’t Catholic are not going to be ready to take action for what they perceive is not a valid reason that can potentially damage their family and children. Protection of one’s family, especially children, is part of man’s primal nature, and a third party’s opinion on the matter is not going to change that.

These matters have to be tread on very, very lightly. The forceful nature of some of these posts will absolutely chase people from the Catholic faith. That, my friends, is real scandal.

Wow… very well said!!

 

[UbiCaritas]

Grrr!

No, but that’s the thing though. If she DID try to live with her husband as brother/sister, he would most likely leave her (and have every right to on top of that).

Imagine this:

Basically she would have to come home to her “husband” who is not religious in the least bit and try to explain to him that they actually aren’t married and that she’s technically still married to her ex husband which is why they can no longer live as husband and wife, and must live as brother and sister.

I think most non religious men, even if they are good people, would be completely confused and hurt and angry and betrayed by this. And I think they’d have every right to leave and date/marry someone else. I think very very few would actually say “ok honey, that’s fine… I will now see you as my sister.”

So yes, this would basically be asking the lady to break up her family because that is what would happen.

But sex isn’t everything.

It’s great, it’s glorious, it’s bonding, it brings a married couple together in a way that God intended to help make marriage permanent, but it isn’t everything.

If the woman you describe had been in a terrible accident which left her unable to make love with her husband, I think most of us would class him as a cad of the first order if he left her for a woman who would have sex with him.

Surely one’s spiritual health is even more important than one’s physical health?

If a man is (as he should be) willing to sacrifice never having sex again in order to stay with the woman he married even though she can no longer have sex due to an accident or illness, then he should be even more willing to stay with her and abstain in order to protect her soul and that of her children. One’s body is impermanent (except in the context of the final resurrection, that is). One’s soul is eternal. The latter, as thousands of martyrs have ably demonstrated over the last two millenia, outranks the former in importance.