A question about MARRIAGE and the Church

[ValPal]

And no, I’m not conflicted on “a lot” of Church teachings.

Neither am I, but this is one of them. And for the haters, it’s “conflicted,” not “disagree with the Church.” The reason is that relationships and sex are basic, primal needs, like food. They existed before sin.

Divorce creates chaos. As bad as that is, there are things that are worse. The subsequent denial of any future relationship, sex, and children is utterly against nature not only creates chaos, but it create hatred and violence. I can’t reconcile the two.

 

[Debora123]

You know well, there are other ways to get information without getting alot of emotions from other people too…
Read books It’s a lot better if you don’t like discussions.
I don’t think people in generel give you a hard time…

No, not in general, only when I’m open and honest about certain things haha.

I do guess you are open to changing your oppinions… maybe you should just make that more clear from the beginning, your intention to get more knowlege, trying to understand so its not so hard to be obedient… which we should always be regardless of whether we have full understanding…
Going off line for a while is better if you wanna really grow in understanding… I never learned much from CAF. I learned from books and prayers, and listening to programs

Good advice, thanks. Reading books is great of course, though it would be nice if there were people I could talk to about certain things besides priests and my mom. What made you want to convert?

 

[Debora123]

Divorce creates chaos. As bad as that is, there are things that are worse. The subsequent denial of any future relationship, sex, and children is utterly against nature not only creates chaos, but it create hatred and violence. I can’t reconcile the two.

Yes, and even though these 2 people aren’t married in the eyes of the Church, they are “married” civilly… which means they’d have to get a full out divorce for this woman to be able to officially join the Church. (Unless of course, the man would by some miracle be OK with living with her as a brother and becoming celibate… which probably wouldn’t happen since he’s not religious).

I honestly don’t see any good coming from that, especially if they have 3 young children and a good relationship.

 

[BettyBoop416]

I wonder why people sometimes have a negative view on Catholics…

It’s truly mind-boggling, isn’t it.

If I was an non-Catholic contemplating conversion and walked in on a “discussion” such as this, I run screaming in the other direction.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

recap:

Hypothetical non Catholic,baptised as a child, married at 18 divorced 3 years later at 21, , never practiced her faith, remarries non religious man, discovers Catholocisim, her marriage cannot be regulated.

choice 1 is to become a Catholic and live in continence

choice 2 not become Catholic, attend mass, pray for resolution. The reason she cannot become a Catholic is she cannot live as a Catholic should, in a Sacramental marriage. I think this choice is permitted, not because the Church thinks her relationship is fine the way it is, but to allow her to experience Mass, and be on the correct path.

Other than the very complex hypothetical, there isn’t any grey in the answer.

I personally do not think that her first marriage would be considered valid even though the OP says it is. Especially if she was baptised as a Christian but married civilly?

I see three possible reasons for declaring it null, lack of maturity, lack of knowledge of what marriage is, and possibly lack of proper form.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Don’t worry. You’ve made yourself very clear.

Yep.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I do actually. And no, I’m not conflicted on “a lot” of Church teachings. …

Perhaps you need to find another spiritual director then? One who will help you sort through all your questioning of Church teachings?

…For example, I know for a fact that the vast majority of priests would actually tell this woman to go ahead and keep a marital relationship with this man.

Really? The vast majority of priests approve of sin and scandal? You know this how?

It is insulting that you would post such a thing.

 

[ValPal]

I honestly don’t see any good coming from that, especially if they have 3 young children and a good relationship.

As a parting note, situations like this to my knowledge are addressed in Tradition. I am not aware of any statement by Christ or the Apostles on the matter of those divorced and remarried with children. When it comes to issues based on Tradition, even devout Catholics don’t agree. Other Apostolic Churches don’t handle this situation the same way.

 

[1inICXC]

Sorry to say, those big angry bold letters just made me skip right through your post without even reading it.

I’m sorry we can’t have a civilized discussion here where people don’t get angry at ME for disagreeing on something. I’m sorry I ever started this thread.

They’re not big, angry, bold letters. I used a bigger font. The capitals are my lazy way of “underlining” which is hard to do on a mobile device.
It’s too bad you skipped it. It actually answered your question, or, perhaps, that’s the part you don’t like. Who knows,

 

[Debora123]

recap:

Hypothetical non Catholic,baptised as a child, married at 18 divorced 3 years later at 21, , never practiced her faith, remarries non religious man, discovers Catholocisim, her marriage cannot be regulated.

**
choice 1 is to become a Catholic and live in continence**

The reason I don’t think this would be a good idea is because of the consequences it would have. Imagine a lady coming home one day and telling her agnostic husband of 15 years whom she has a good relationship with, and not to mention 3 children with, that they are actually NOT married and that she is actually married to her first husband still. And for that reason they must now stop living as husband and wife and start living as brother and sister… complete with separate bedrooms and all. The man wouldn’t understand, and would probably and rightfully feel very betrayed, confused, and not to mention devastated.

Most men in this scenario would legally “divorce” this woman, and be free to date/marry someone else… and he’d have every right to do so. Keep in mind also that this would not only effect them and break them, but it would effect the children as well. What a mess that would be! Complete with divorce and all!

Unless the man is by some miracle ok with living with his “wife” as a brother and being celibate, I think the best thing for this lady to do would be to continue to attend mass but not take the next step to officially become Catholic.

 

[Debora123]

Really? The vast majority of priests approve of sin and scandal? You know this how?

It is insulting that you would post such a thing.

See my post #156.

 

[Havard]

Hey Deb,

I think you said earlier you were done… is it too late for me to chime in?

 

[SwizzleStick]

…You are judging the situation by Catholic standards. …

God’s laws on marriage are the same for all of us. The vows are until death for all of us. Many don’t seem to be aware of that or deny it, but that is the reality.

 

[1inICXC]

Thank you so much for saying this!

Honestly I can’t believe people are giving me such a hard time for all this. Though I suppose I should expect it by now.

Either way, I’ve learned my lesson (again) and go back to not asking questions and not being honest about my point of view on certain things.

Why are people giving you a hard time? Hmmm, for those who follow your threads we’ve seen too often how you try to find fault and loopholes in Church teaching so that they better suit YOUR choices.

After all these months, the only helpful thing I can say about your issue with church teaching on sexuality is that if you sought the truth in honesty you would find it. If you just want to find the wide way that leads to Heaven, I can say that it doesn’t exist.

There are sacrifices you can run away from, like the hard teachings on marriage and NFP, but there are also those you can’t. Read Humanae Vitae and Familiaris Consortio if you are not sure that the Church teaches that love is a call to SACRIFICE.

If your priest told you that in this situation the woman can continue marital relationships with the new husband you should perhaps report it to the higher ranks and switch spiritual director fast.

 

[Debora123]

Hey Deb,

I think you said earlier you were done… is it too late for me to chime in?

I am done starting threads such as these. I will continue in this discussion as civilly and charitably as I can, and I ask that others do the same.

 

[Havard]

I am done starting threads such as these. I will continue in this discussion as civilly and charitably as I can, and I ask that others do the same.

First off, I’m sorry some people have been down on you. I applaud you for trying to reconcile matters where your conscience and Church teaching seem not to match up.

About this hypothetical… the husband is basically saying “I didn’t sign up for this religion, you did. If you deny me sex, I’m out.” Right?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The reason I don’t think this would be a good idea is because of the consequences it would have. Imagine a lady coming home one day and telling her agnostic husband of 15 years whom she has a good relationship with, and not to mention 3 children with, that they are actually NOT married and that she is actually married to her first husband still. And for that reason they must now stop living as husband and wife and start living as brother and sister… complete with separate bedrooms and all. The man wouldn’t understand, and would probably and rightfully feel very betrayed, confused, and not to mention devastated.

Most men in this scenario would legally “divorce” this woman, and be free to date/marry someone else… and he’d have every right to do so. Keep in mind also that this would not only effect them and break them, but it would effect the children as well. What a mess that would be! Complete with divorce and all!

Unless the man is by some miracle ok with living with his “wife” as a brother and being celibate, I think the best thing for this lady to do would be to continue to attend mass but not take the next step to officially become Catholic.

I don’t think we know what “most men” would do, for one. Secondly, why the bombshell, “We are not married, we may no longer have relations!!” cue melodramatic soap opera music.

Does ms. hypothetical arrive at full Catholic knowledge all at once on a Friday afternoon, or is it slow, and studious look at the Church. Wouldn’t she share these things with her husband at all, gradually? Couldn’t her conversion process at all effect her DH in some way?

Sometimes, just the conversion process is the catalyst for a major change in the marriage. The non-converting spouse might say, “WHAT” you’re becoming Catholic. Johnette Benkovic talks about her husband and her conversion process. She reverted first, he taunted her and made fun of her their marriage was almost ruined. Through prayer and patience he reverted as well. It’s a bautiful story.

 

[SwizzleStick]

See my post #156.

I saw it. I saw all your posts in this thread. They are your opinions, opinions yet again in opposition to Church teaching.

I think you are missing one point of where scandal is involved. A small example is publicly claiming that the majority of priests would tell you that this hypothetical woman should go ahead and continue a marital relationship with the second man is scandalous. Don’t you see that?

I strongly suggest that you speak with your spiritual director.

I’ll pray for you to find your way as you seek Truth.

 

[1inICXC]

The reason I don’t think this would be a good idea is because of the consequences it would have. Imagine a lady coming home one day and telling her agnostic husband of 15 years whom she has a good relationship with, and not to mention 3 children with, that they are actually NOT married and that she is actually married to her first husband still. And for that reason they must now stop living as husband and wife and start living as brother and sister… complete with separate bedrooms and all. The man wouldn’t understand, and would probably and rightfully feel very betrayed, confused, and not to mention devastated.

Most men in this scenario would legally “divorce” this woman, and be free to date/marry someone else… and he’d have every right to do so. Keep in mind also that this would not only effect them and break them, but it would effect the children as well. What a mess that would be! Complete with divorce and all!

Unless the man is by some miracle ok with living with his “wife” as a brother and being celibate, I think the best thing for this lady to do would be to continue to attend mass but not take the next step to officially become Catholic.

The church doesn’t have to answer for our feelings.
Castello said it has been done and there are people out there, even non-Catholics, who care enough about eachother’s well-being that they can forgo intimacy. You are trying to get down to the fact that a marriage fails without sex but the reality is that it doesn’t and it shouldn’t. There simply are situations where love requires abstinence. There is nothing absurd or impossible about that.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I saw it. I saw all your posts in this thread. They are your opinions, opinions yet again in opposition to Church teaching.

I think you are missing one point of where scandal is involved. A small example is publicly claiming that the majority of priests would tell you that this hypothetical woman should go ahead and continue a marital relationship with the second man is scandalous. Don’t you see that?

I strongly suggest that you speak with your spiritual director.

I’ll pray for you to find your way as you seek Truth.

If you read the section from the cathechism I provided, the Church addresses souch couples. The Church wants them to attend Mass, but they must refrain from the sacraments until they can remain continent.

There are many people in this situation.