A question about MARRIAGE and the Church

[GraceDK]

Legitimate question - Would the church really be willing to turn away a person serious about converting through RICA solely based on something rash they’d done nearly three decades earlier?

That Something is Marriage, which is a very important institution both in the eyes of God, Church and a normal healthy society. The Catholic Church recognizes the marriages contracted outside of the Church as valid natural marriages, although not sacramental marriages. And marriage is an institution made my God, both when its natural and sacramental. Okay?

I mean, even as an atheist, I’d like to think that if there was a God that he’d rather have someone in his flock that’s made a mistake and repented rather than risk pushing them away forever over a technicality.

God pushes no one away. Its not his fault when people make mistakes in this life that has consequences. The woman in question was not granted an anullment. That means she is still married to her first husband, the new husband is not her real spouse and they are living in adultery. Repentance from sexual behaviour which has been going on for a long time is of course difficult. This life can be extremely difficult when you try to follow the laws of God instead of your own ideas and passions. As such some of us actually live sex-less lives because we are not married

 

[thomasf]

You know, Jesus was pretty clear about the marriage stuff. And He even said Himself that they were hard teachings. Marriage is a sacrament and a serious matter. The fact is the secular world has made it often trivial and irreverent so people don’t take it seriously, marry and divorce multiple times. Of course these kinds of things can happen in an environment like that.

 

[ValPal]

I’m sorry ANY Catholic would ever believe the Church teaches us or asks us to do something that God doesn’t intend!

We’re not talking about “us.” We’re talking about “them.” “Them” being defined as those people that no nothing of the Catholic Church. It should be fairly obvious that people that no nothing of the Catholic Church can’t be expected to live by Catholic Church rules, but apparently that is not the case.

 

[1inICXC]

We’re not talking about “us.” We’re talking about “them.” “Them” being defined as those people that no nothing of the Catholic Church. It should be fairly obvious that people that no nothing of the Catholic Church can’t be expected to live by Catholic Church rules, but apparently that is not the case.

We moved to Europe and I had no idea that I couldn’t take a right on a red light, guess what, I still had to pay the hefty fine and can no longer take rights on a red light.

It is obvious that the Church does not expect people who are outside to adhere to its teachings, just like Americans don’t abide by European laws, but it OBVIOUSLY, has the right to expect it of people who join. The Church doesn’t make the person go back and do things the Catholic way but it does tell you that if you are going to be part of this flock, you will have to do them henceforth.

And btw, Debora, who is insinuating that some Church teachings might be against God’s plan for us, is a Catholic and I was referring to HER post.

 

[SwizzleStick]

…And this is where I am conflicted …

Seems to me that you are conflicted a lot about some aspect of Church teachings. Perhaps you need to seek the guidance of a good spiritual director and speak to him on a regular basis?

 

[fgh_123]

You’re saying that she tried for an annulment of her first marriage and for some reason it wasn’t granted, correct?

Then she can’t live with her second husband if she wants to avoid living in sin. And by extension she has a problem becoming a Catholic in that condition. She’s screwed up her life and done a royally good job of it. Is that what you wanted to hear??

My guess is that she won’t become Catholic, after all. These things do happen.

I wonder why people sometimes have a negative view on Catholics…

 

[GraceDK]

Another long thread that you started only to be defiant. Maybe you need to take a break. I don’t see any good coming out of these threads since you seem to have stopped listening a long time ago.

Come on. Give her a break.
The question is a good one. Its not only about theory but about how to treat such cases pastorally and practically. And this problem is widespread now… relevant.
Many people asked similar questions in my canon law classes… and they were all serious Catholics. Indeed I see from Deborah’s passionate quest for the truth that she seeks to get to the heart of Catholic teaching and understand why God might have made things the way He did.

That is a good thing

 

[dailey]

What was the point of that post? If you want to have an actual discussion then please stay on topic, if not, then please refrain from posting up hostile comments towards me on my own thread… especially when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you have something personal to say to me, please do so via PM.

Thank you, and God bless.

The point of my post was that it seems you need a break. I am not the one being hostile. You keep posting questions…then biting the head off everyone who tries to help you?

Its obvious you are struggling right now. I simply thought that if you stayed off the net for a while, it would help you clear your head. I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic or rude, I posted the previous post late at night (half asleep)… sorry if it sounded uncharitable. Have a great day!

 

[Debora123]

Haha, sorry I posted this thread. Some of you seem to be getting very upset. Please chill out folks. Grab a glass of wine and relax… it’s good for ya!

 

[Debora123]

The point of my post was that it seems you need a break. I am not the one being hostile. You keep posting questions…then biting the head off everyone who tries to help you?

Its obvious you are struggling right now. I simply thought that if you stayed off the net for a while, it would help you clear your head. I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic or rude, I posted the previous post late at night (half asleep)… sorry if it sounded uncharitable. Have a great day!

As I said, and I’ll say it again since perhaps you didn’t understand (still sleepy?):

If you want to have an actual discussion then please stay on topic, if not, then please refrain from posting up hostile comments towards me on my own thread… especially when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you have something personal to say to me, please do so via PM.

Thank you and God bless!

 

[Debora123]

I’m sorry ANY Catholic would ever believe the Church teaches us or asks us to do something that God doesn’t intend!

God didn’t intend for her to get married at 18 and didn’t intend for her to leave just because they started having differences. God didn’t intend for her to go for 18 years without religious formation. And God certainly does NOT intend for her spouse to leave because they cannot have sex. These are all PERSONAL decisions that should NEVER be blamed on God!

There are greater sacrifices in life that spouses had to make than live as brothers and sisters, but for someone who prefers to use contraception than to abstain, I guess that is hard to see and understand.

There are NO grey areas in Church teachings, there are just areas that have to be judged on individual levels and those are well defined I.e there is a tribunal to rule on annulments, on defrocking or other vocational matters but there is and will NEVER be a tribunal to rule on contraception, or on abortion or fundamental issues that are intrinsically wrong in every and all circumstances!

Sorry to say, those big angry bold letters just made me skip right through your post without even reading it.

I’m sorry we can’t have a civilized discussion here where people don’t get angry at ME for disagreeing on something. I’m sorry I ever started this thread.

 

[Castello]

Take BOTH marriages out of the theory. This is a woman who has lived with a man for 20 years and they have 13 kids. She wants to become Catholic and he refuses to marry her. Do you think God would want her to continue fornication?

Or, a woman and a man hook up one night in a bar - she gets pregnant and they move in together. 1 month later she wants to become Catholic and he cannot marry her because he is married to someone else and they will lose a 10 million dollar trust if they divorce. Does God want them to continue sleeping together?

Do children born or time elapsed somehow make sin not sin

 

[Debora123]

Seems to me that you are conflicted a lot about some aspect of Church teachings. Perhaps you need to seek the guidance of a good spiritual director and speak to him on a regular basis?

I do actually. And no, I’m not conflicted on “a lot” of Church teachings.

The thing is, my parish priest and spiritual adviser both say some very different things than the stricter posters of CAF about certain special circumstances. For example, I know for a fact that the vast majority of priests would actually tell this woman to go ahead and keep a marital relationship with this man.

 

[Castello]

I do actually. And no, I’m not conflicted on “a lot” of Church teachings.

The thing is, my parish priest and spiritual adviser both say some very different things than the stricter posters of CAF about certain special circumstances. For example, I know for a fact that the vast majority of priests would actually tell this woman to go ahead and keep a marital relationship with this man.

The vast majority in your area - if that is true it is scandal, if they are teaching contrary to the Church the Diocese needs to know.

 

[Debora123]

Come on. Give her a break.
The question is a good one. Its not only about theory but about how to treat such cases pastorally and practically. And this problem is widespread now… relevant.
Many people asked similar questions in my canon law classes… and they were all serious Catholics. Indeed I see from Deborah’s passionate quest for the truth that she seeks to get to the heart of Catholic teaching and understand why God might have made things the way He did.

That is a good thing

Thank you so much for saying this!

Honestly I can’t believe people are giving me such a hard time for all this. Though I suppose I should expect it by now.

Either way, I’ve learned my lesson (again) and go back to not asking questions and not being honest about my point of view on certain things.

 

[dailey]

As I said, and I’ll say it again since perhaps you didn’t understand (still sleepy?):

Thank you and God bless!

No, I am awake now.

Sorry, I think I was getting this thread and the other one you have going confused (since the point of them both was the same). Mental note: do not bring the Kindle fire to bed with me at night. God bless you too!

 

[ValPal]

Do children born or time elapsed somehow make sin not sin

This an example of why these discussions often go nowhere. You are judging the situation by Catholic standards. The hypothetical person is not Catholic. This person cannot be in a state of mortal sin since they have no knowledge that what they are doing is a mortal sin.

 

[Debora123]

The vast majority in your area - if that is true it is scandal, if they are teaching contrary to the Church the Diocese needs to know.

I don’t think this is scandal at all, IMHO.

As Mary Gail said, the lady in this scenario can still attend mass and everything, she just wouldn’t be able to officially become a Catholic and receive all the sacraments. I don’t think it would be scandalous that most priests would actually advise the lady to do this rather than risk breaking up her family to become an official member.

 

[ValPal]

The vast majority in your area - if that is true it is scandal, if they are teaching contrary to the Church the Diocese needs to know.

It is not scandal. Scandal would be allowing the woman to convert while continuing the relationship as it stands. There is a reason the Church wishes to resolve the marital issue before conversion.

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you so much for saying this!

Honestly I can’t believe people are giving me such a hard time for all this. Though I suppose I should expect it by now.

Either way, I’ve learned my lesson (again) and go back to not asking questions and not being honest about my point of view on certain things.

You know well, there are other ways to get information without getting alot of emotions from other people too…
Read books It’s a lot better if you don’t like discussions.
I don’t think people in generel give you a hard time…
I do guess you are open to changing your oppinions… maybe you should just make that more clear from the beginning, your intention to get more knowlege, trying to understand so its not so hard to be obedient… which we should always be regardless of whether we have full understanding…
Going off line for a while is better if you wanna really grow in understanding… I never learned much from CAF. I learned from books and prayers, and listening to programs