A question about Romans 9

[Gadgeteer]

This thread is excellent and I appreciate very much the contributions of Gadgeteer and jcrichton.

I hope Gadgeteer feels welcome here as his contributions help us to appreciate a Protestant view, even if his views differ from Luther and many ‘traditional’ Protestants who held that through grace we are accepted as righteous, but the grace does not make us righteous. Grace is imputed, God ignores our evil and accepts us.

That’s “Antinomianism”, a form of Gnosticism. Gnosticism was present in the first Century; much of John’s first letter was written to oppose it…

But as I wrote before many Protestants now hold, as we do, that grace transforms us. Another change is that now many Protestants believe grace has a community, social role, and is not solely for the individual. This also coincides with Catholic belief.

The argument is, “does Scripture have clear teachings” (solid ideas)? Obviously I perceive it does. Conversing with Calvinists, I wrote down every verse they used; and looked them up, reading the context — every one of them must be discarded, because of contextual refutations. But the way Calvinism works, you have to engage all of the verses – at least fifty-five passages that I call “secondaries”, and then the four “primaries”. If you just try one or two (or a dozen), they still hold all the other verses as “backup”. Only when you do ALL of them, do they have to admit their arms are empty.

But within Catholicism, many views are accepted, once the fundamentals are held. So let debate flourish.

I’m honored by your words. :hug:

(Too bad there isn’t really a “hug” smiley here!)

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi!

I find it quite funny that Calvinism (and related theologies) seeks displace their obligation to take part in their own Salvation… **they also seem to want to determine who gets saved and who gets damned **(JWs also hold similar views)… in the end, are such ideologies not forms of usurping God’s Authority or, in the least, controlling God?

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi! :tiphat:

One of the sins against the Holy Spirit is the sin of presumption; for instance, presuming that one has no need of being forgiven by God for their sins. A former colleague of mine who’s an atheist once told me: “I don’t need Jesus to be my savior.” He owned that people do commit immoral acts, but these aren’t sins against God. A Buddhist will tell us what we Christians consider to be sins are only acts committed in poor judgment. People who we describe as being sinful merely lack enlightenment, which implies that sin doesn’t originate from the human heart, but from an uninformed mind. At the opposite end of the pole, we have the Calvinist who presumes that God has personally forgiven him of his sins by arbitrary election. More precisely, God has decided to overlook them. By no preceding merit of his (this far he’s thinking like a Catholic), God has drawn him out of the pool of reprobates to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. And now that he has, his salvation is eternally secure from that point on. Now that he is saved, he is always saved. I’ve had a Calvinist tell me that repenting is superfluous, since all his sins (before and after conversion) have been atoned for by Christ through his work on the cross. God looks at his faith in Jesus’ merits when he declares him justified. This is all that’s required, since we continue to sin anyway after we acknowledge and confess our sins to ourselves before God. No act of contrition can meet the divine standard and please God because of our corrupt human condition. What we have here is the added presumption that there’s no need to repent and have any firm desire of amendment other than to confirm one’s election to glory. The unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit is essentially the refusal to repent. Presumption and obstinacy that result in this refusal are sins against the Holy Spirit for this very reason.

PAX

:heaven:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…again… it’s about the totality of Revelation… here’s what is fully wrong with this maneuvering of Scriptures:
a) as you’ve pointed out there is a comparison being made: Israel and the Gentiles
b) it is about God’s Mercy and God’s WillYes. And – Calvinism founds on the premise that God ordains most to be wicked and to perish. And that God’s mercy is just not given to most people.

The greatest breech is probably the reality that “God is love”; but to predestine most for Hell (before they did anything good or bad!) makes Him 100% “hate”, and for the few favorites (whom He created to live) He absolutely “demands his own way” (opposite 1Cor13:5). As we’ve discussed several times…

c) it is about God’s Salvation Reaching all (Romans 11:28-32)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Fallible salvation?

Yes. Peter said (2:3:17) “be on your guard that you not (be deceived) and fall from your own steadfastness.” And, (2:1:5-11) “be diligent to make your calling and election steadfast, that you not ptaio-become-wretched, …in this way the gates of eternity will be provided to you.” Is there such a thing as “unsteadfastly-saved”?

No.

The prodigal son represents humanity in its fallen state and the need for humanity to be reconciled with God the Father. The son was a child of his father before and after he left home.

That’s parallel to what OSAS people say; “He never stopped being a SON, did he?” They think he remained “saved” while he was fornicating, carousing, drunk, etcetera.

…they forget the father’s words “He WAS DEAD and LOST!”

He didn’t become his father’s son after he returned home, but was restored in his grace. By returning home, he became the son his father desired he should be.

I would love to have your opinion on Heb12:7-9. It begins “if we submit to God’s discipline, then He treats us as sons.” Using the past tense, “we have become partakers” — then in the present “but if we are (now!) without His discipline then we are not sons but illegitimate”.

It finishes with, “We submitted to earthly fathers, shall we not therefore BE subject to (God), and live?” (The argument against falling continues with verse 15, and 25! Especially 25!!!)

Is it just me, or is that a very clear warning “not to CEASE being sons, not to become UNADOPTED”???

BTW, note well that “partakers”, is “metochos”’; in Heb3:1, 3:14, 6:4, and 12:8, it means “partners”. Fully saved.

We read in 1 Timothy 2:4 that God “desires everyone (all his children) to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” Like the prodigal son, everyone must come to their senses if they hope to be saved. Salvation is infallible but on this condition, that we come to our senses and acknowledge our fallen state and need to be reconciled with God. Our salvation is assured once we repent and implore God for forgiveness. If we persevere in grace to the end of our lives, there is no mistake that we shall receive our eternal reward.

Not to dispute you – what do you think about “was dead, but is alive again”? I perceive “again”, to mean he once was alive, before he was dead. What do you think?

Those who receive Jesus are children of God in the spiritual, regenerative, and redemptive senses - by supernatural ‘adoption’. We are all born children of God by virtue of having been created in the divine image, but with the stain of original sin on our souls. This is not by any personal act of our own, but is an inheritance from our original parents, Adam and Eve. Through baptism, our souls are cleansed of all sin and we receive sanctifying grace, a free gift of God. Being baptized, we become children by adoption in that we are no longer God’s children by simply having a rational soul and free will. We can actually partake of the divine nature by being reborn in the Spirit, now that the stain of original sin has been removed from our souls: the deprivation of the original sanctity and justice. As children by adoption, we are a new creation, the sons and daughters who God desires us to be, liberated from the world’s corruption and raised above all sinful desires. As God’s adopted children, we are called to put on this new divine nature that desires the things of God (2 Cor 5:17). We love what God loves (Gal 5:22) and hate what God hates (1 Jn 2:15-17). We are made partakers of the divine nature by undergoing a radical spiritual transformation. But because of our human nature (the Adam inside us), we struggle to overcome sin by resisting temptation. It is our fallen nature that keeps us from fellowship with God and keeps us in bondage to sin, which leads to spiritual death (Rom 6:16; 7:14; 2 Pet 2:19). We cannot free ourselves entirely from sin because of our fallen human nature, no more than a leopard can change its spots.

We have power to “cleanse ourselves” (2Tim2:21, Rev22:14, Ezk18:31) — we do that by filling ourselves with Jesus and the Spirit, that they bring cleansing.

Calvinists perceive that we are not just “totally depraved”, but “totally unable”. This total inability must be sovereignly reversed by God, so that we will then (irresistibly) turn to God. To contend otherwise causes charges of “Pelagianism” (or Semi-Pelagianism). No, we are not inherently good; God’s earnest and sincere DRAWING overcomes our depravity sufficient for belief.

 

[Gadgeteer]

However, as children by adoption, we can increase in sanctification by being renewed daily, as we struggle to overcome our sinful habits and grow in holiness. As partakers of the divine nature, we are no longer enslaved to the passions and sins of the flesh (Rom 6:6, 14), but only because of the power of God’s grace that helps us conquer every temptation we face (1 Cor 10:13).

It’s two-fold; yes God’s grace, but that’s why we must "build ourselves in faith and keep ourselves in His love."

Rom6 speaks of “being born-again”, and it admonishes us to “consider ourselves dead to sin but alive to God through Jesus”. Then Rom7 recounts the WAR that now occurs between the new godly nature, and the dead but not gone sin nature. Romans8 is the solution — do not walk in the flesh (of we do we must die!), but by the Spirit’s power put to death the flesh. That’s it – God’s grace and power, through our faith and abiding.

What distinguishes children of God - in the creative sense - from a child of God by adoption - the spiritual, regenerative, and redemptive senses - is that the latter desires not to continue to sin and is open to God’s actual graces, now that the divine seed is planted in them (1 Jn 3:9). They love what God loves and hate what God hates, albeit the occasional lapse (Rom 7:15). The children of this world have no wish to rise above their selfish and sinful desires of the flesh and conform their lives to the image of the Son (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 6:18). They prefer to love what God hates, and in their obstinate pride, they harden their hearts to God’s grace. Not unlike the prodigal son before his conversion of heart, they remain alienated from God as His estranged children (Col 1:21-22).

I look forward to your thoughts on Heb12:7-9. Actually, the entire letter of Hebrews very solidly teaches against “OSAS” – forsaking God’s discipline in ch12, is the same as in ch10 where “continuing to sin willfully” removes us from being covered by the Cross.

We also read in Matthew 5, 19: “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” Jesus isn’t referring only to baptized Christians, but to all whose lives conform to his image. This includes those who are pure in heart and thirst for righteousness, (etc.).

“Baptized” meaning water? What are your thoughts on Luke12:50?

They are still his children, but only in the creative sense.

Agreed. Again – Heb12?

 

[James248]

“Baptized” meaning water? What are your thoughts on Luke12:50?

Jesus was talking about His suffering, hence the teaching that we share in His death in Baptism.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer:

All religions (Mormons JW’s, Budhism, Judaism, Islam, every one!) are based on men doing good deeds to earn God’s favor (or eternity, or nirvana, or whatever). Salvation is a GIFT — righteousness is a GIFT.

If you claim we earn God’s favour I disagree.

We do not earn God’s favor — we can find favor with God because of righteousness. In Gen6:8-9 Noah found favor with God, because he was righteous. Noah did not come to God with his own righteousness; he had God’s righteousness, through his faith.

If you claim righteousness is a gift I agree.

It’s exactly that; Rom5:17.

• A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
  (Rom. 4:4-5 NAB)*

Excellent citation – and, if one truly believes, then the good works are unavoidable.

Do I sound like a Protestant?

You sound like one whose heart yearns for God. The day will come (sooner than anyone realizes), when Jesus will return; and we will not have differences. We will be family, all who belong to Him.

However I consider that Good Fella (#93) has explained very well Catholic teaching.

I guess I need to respond to that post.

Thanks.

The pleasure’s mine.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Jesus was talking about His suffering, hence the teaching that we share in His death in Baptism.

Hi, James. “Baptized into His death” – Rom6:1-7 uses five words interchangeably; “died”, “crucified”, “buried”, “immersed” (baptizo), and “united” — into Jesus, through death.

See Mark10:38, “Are you willing to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, to drink the cup that I drink?” The cup was His death; hence, “you have been crucified with Christ (no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us)”. Gal2:20.

Matt26:39, Jn18:11 — “cup”.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi! :tiphat:

Backatchya.

Agreed. The gift of salvation was merited for us by Christ alone. Although we may be justly entitled to a reward, since God is fair, Jesus produced it, and he alone is equal to the reward. Now that he has, we must “work out” - not work for - our salvation in “fear and trembling”.

Don’t stop — Philip2:13 “for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.” The works we do are really Him doing them through us. Gal2:20.

The gift of salvation isn’t like a wage that an employer is obligated to honour by law. In the strict sense of justice, God owes us nothing, for without His grace we couldn’t possibly do anything to please Him. We cannot earn our salvation. So, the gift of salvation is more like the Christmas bonus that the employer offers at his own pleasure as a token of his appreciation for all the good work the employee has done in his grace: “Well done, my good and faithful servant” (Matt 25:23).

In the world of Protestantism, and in the world of Catholicism, I want most to promote the truth that “salvation is a union between two real people; Creator (Jesus!) and creature (you and me!)”. 1Jn5, “he who has Jesus has eternal life”.

And the other side of 1Jn5:12, is 2Jn1:9 — he who goes to far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son. Zero “osas”.

Agreed. Grace must precede all our good works, if they are to have salvific value, but our co-operation with God’s grace is also required. ‘Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh’(Rom 13:14). ‘Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience’ (Col 3:12).

Nicely done – excellent citations!

In all of that, Gal2:20 again – “Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Now read 2Cor13:5 – “Examine yourselves, test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith. Do you not realize this, Christ is in you, unless you fail the test (adokimos are unapproved)?”

How do we examine/test ourselves? It’s the same as in 2Pet1:5-11; we are to observe our fruits…

Agreed, if by that you concur justification is progressive.

Justification and sanctification, are actually both. “Done deal” inasmuch as Jesus finished them on the Cross, and “progressive” as we walk in Him and grow in faith. Col2:6-8!

In Catholic theology, a person who stands just before God isn’t merely declared to be righteous, but has been made righteous by the power of divine grace that is infused into his soul. One’s justification involves a genuine renewal of being and a supernatural transformation.

It has to be every bit of that.

God desires and helps us effect an inner change of heart (Ezek 36:27).

Ahhh, you cite a “Secondary”! (One of the verses Calvinists think asserts predestination.)

The refutation is in Ezk11:18-21 (men turn to God BEFORE getting new hearts, but those who will not turn are condemned). And Deut30:2 they turn first (verse 30:6 says the same as Ezk36:27-27 “He will circumcise your hearts to love Him”).

More than “helps us”, He becomes our new heart.

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus3:5-7

That’s what “regeneration” is — Ezk18:31, “make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit”.

“Paliggenesia” in Titus3:5, new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

 

[Gadgeteer]

God doesn’t just declare that we are righteous. Righteousness is not just imputed to us. We can actually do works of righteousness by God’s grace which sanctifies us (Isa 64:5). What God has decreed with necessity is that internal change, and He gives us the grace to be transformed in His likeness. Justification is declarative and forensic to some extent. God has decreed to actually make us righteous in his sight by the means of His efficacious grace and the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. But this is made available to us through the unmerited and initial grace of forgiveness and justification. Our renewal in spirit begins with the redemption Christ achieved for the entire human race strictly by his merits through his passion and atoning death on the Cross.

Agreed. It’s still all about “cause and effect”; we are righteous because He is in us. All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. We overcome sin not by striving for righteousness or striving to do good, but by drawing near to Him that His righteousness fills us.

Catholics don’t believe that an individual can reckon himself as righteous by appealing to his natural moral works outside the system of divine grace. Still, God’s declaration of righteousness is seen as something more than a simple decree. By going a step further, Catholics see it as an effect in that whatever God declares to be, it is what it is produced to really be. A person can be declared just because he has been made intrinsically just by the sanctifying grace of God. He is a new creation in Christ who actually “conforms” to the divine image by renouncing his old natural self (2 Cor. 5:17). The righteousness credited to him is not a fictional or synthetic one, since it is produced by God with man’s willing cooperation. By God’s merciful standard, he has relatively reached a level of divine perfection in his finite humanity that is pleasing and just in God’s sight.

When a man is righteous, he 100% can turn away from that righteousness and all his righteous deeds will no longer be remembered; Ezk18:24. The whole thing is all about “abiding” — that’s what most of Scripture is.

The Council of Trent defined sanctification as “the only formal cause (causa formalis) of justification”. Form is the principle determination which accounts for something being what it is. Justification could not essentially be what it is or is supposed to be according to God’s design without its principle determination, viz., sanctity. Meanwhile, our justification acquires its essential form on the principle of efficient causality, that which puts something into effect. In this case, the efficient cause of our justification is grace bestowed by God in the forms of both Divine favour and Divine persuasion with final results. Justification is a process whose purpose is to free us from all guilt in our relationship with God and whose end is our predestination to glory. Without its principle determinant, sanctity, the process of justification could not accomplish its purpose (final causality) and achieve its end. Unless ‘our’ righteousness (not personally Christ’s) surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, we will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20).

And it all goes back to what Jesus said (places like Matt7:16-18), “no good tree produces bad fruit, and no bad tree produces good fruit; you will know them by their fruit.”

You’re pretty good, GoodFella.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

It seems to me that Calvinism has set its standards on the teachings of their predecessor/s; they have determined that Scriptures must be understood in that very specific manner… I liken them to today’s drivers… they are hooked on the GPS machines… they turn on the ignition and sit in the vehicle until the machine tells them how to get there… it does not matter if the trip is to the local pharmacy or out of state… they will not make a move unless the machine calls out: do “xyz.”

So often one has to try to pin them down; listing the possible meanings of a particular verse, and saying: “Pick one, or give one of your own!”

Even then, my experience is that most just won’t engage the verse. In the book I’m writing, I refer to Gamaliel plus one — Gamaliel (Acts5:35-39) advised, “If this is of men it will come to nothing; but if it is of GOD, not only will you not be able to overturn it, but you may be found fighting against God.”

…the “plus one”, is — “if this is not of God and you do NOT oppose it, then you allow deception to continue.”

I fully concur with you that there’s no Scriptural Revelation about God saving/electing one person over another… and I fully concur with you that it is man himself that ultimately determines to embrace God’s Gift of Salvation or to reject it, embracing, instead, darnation.

(I’m cracking up here!)

…the most exacting Scriptural passage that I can offer is found in St. John 3:

The only election (predestination) that God has ever made is that “all” be Saved!VERY excellent citation – I wrote an appendix, “THOSE WHO” – in terms of personal salvation. In no case does Scripture assert “GOD who” (individual salvation). John3, “those who do good come to Jesus the Light, but those who prefer evil avoid the light”. How many times does someone have to read “THOSE WHO”, before they give up the predestinary “God who”?

The word “predestination” is in Scripture. Another of the Primaries is Rom8:29-35 — notice that they do not include verse 28! THOSE WHO love God, are (therefore) predestined (through their voluntary love!) to be Christlike. That’s all it says.

The choice is ours!

A.T.Robertson ("Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament) defers to Lightfoot on Rom1:17, “the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith.”

Beginning (faith-the-start), to ending (faith-the-goal). It’s our choice, and it’s our continuous choice from then on.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…that would be the “catch 22” thing–if they were to pay attention… it is reminiscent of St. Paul’s query… if Christ did not Resurrect from the dead… then our Faith is void–everything we do is for not.

…it makes God some kind of Alzheimer’s patient… generating a Salvific Plan to not save anyone! Why would the world, Human life, and everything exist if it’s just a screenplay from before time? I really believe Adam and Eve fell, because “love” has to be free to be refused!

I find it quite funny that Calvinism (and related theologies) seeks displace their obligation to take part in their own Salvation… they also seem to want to determine who gets saved and who gets damned (JWs also hold similar views)… in the end, are such ideologies not forms of usurping God’s Authority or, in the least, controlling God?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi! :tiphat:

One of the sins against the Holy Spirit is the sin of presumption; for instance, presuming that one has no need of being forgiven by God for their sins. A former colleague of mine who’s an atheist once told me: “I don’t need Jesus to be my savior.”

Did you see my comment (stolen from TV evangelist Adrian Rogers), “five questions which destroy Atheism”? Ask your colleague these five questions, and he will absolutely no longer be an Atheist!

He owned that people do commit immoral acts, but these aren’t sins against God. A Buddhist will tell us what we Christians consider to be sins are only acts committed in poor judgment. People who we describe as being sinful merely lack enlightenment, which implies that sin doesn’t originate from the human heart, but from an uninformed mind. At the opposite end of the pole, we have the Calvinist who presumes that God has personally forgiven him of his sins by arbitrary election. More precisely, God has decided to overlook them. By no preceding merit of his (this far he’s thinking like a Catholic), God has drawn him out of the pool of reprobates to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. And now that he has, his salvation is eternally secure from that point on. Now that he is saved, he is always saved. I’ve had a Calvinist tell me that repenting is superfluous, since all his sins (before and after conversion) have been atoned for by Christ through his work on the cross. God looks at his faith in Jesus’ merits when he declares him justified. This is all that’s required, since we continue to sin anyway after we acknowledge and confess our sins to ourselves before God. No act of contrition can meet the divine standard and please God because of our corrupt human condition. What we have here is the added presumption that there’s no need to repent and have any firm desire of amendment other than to confirm one’s election to glory. The unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit is essentially the refusal to repent. Presumption and obstinacy that result in this refusal are sins against the Holy Spirit for this very reason.

To be fair, all the Calvinists I’ve discoursed with do not advocate “license-to-sin”. They really do believe that we have to be walking in righteousness…

 

[Good_Fella]

Agreed. It’s still all about “cause and effect”; we are righteous because He is in us. All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. We overcome sin not by striving for righteousness or striving to do good, but by drawing near to Him that His righteousness fills us.

When a man is righteous, he 100% can turn away from that righteousness and all his righteous deeds will no longer be remembered; Ezk18:24. The whole thing is all about “abiding” — that’s what most of Scripture is.

And it all goes back to what Jesus said (places like Matt7:16-18), “no good tree produces bad fruit, and no bad tree produces good fruit; you will know them by their fruit.”

You’re pretty good, GoodFella.

You, too, Gadgeteer.

I see what you mean. What we do have to strive for is being Christ-like. The more we become Christ-like, the more we have overcome sin. Practising his righteousness is the righteousness that pleases God: works done in charity (agape) and grace out of love for God in His goodness and neighbour. These works sanctify the soul and thus lead to salvation. Yet, even these works are to no avail unless we have a repentant faith. We can never make God indebted to us, for it’s His grace that precedes all our righteous deeds pleasing to Him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. - 1 john 3, 7

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

It seems like I am on a path of self-destruction and the defeat of my own purpose… What is the best remedy for pride?

1. We must first own that we aren’t absolutely perfect and that only God is. Thus, we have no reason to be proud and boastful. The root of the problem is that we tend to think too highly of ourselves. We should focus more on how great God is and less on ourselves.

2. We have to revise any false notions that we have. People who suffer from pride normally think they are better than other people and take great lengths to show that they are. So when somebody comes along who they judge to be better than them, they see themselves as failures and may even fall into the dark pit of self-condemnation. The root of the problem is a false sense of self-sufficiency, that all their personal assets are their own creation. But the truth is we have no right to judge ourselves and others in comparison with each other. All our personal assets are gifts from God who alone has the right to distribute them as He pleases. And if all the gifts we have are from God, we mustn’t boast as if they are produced by us (1 Cor 4:7). It’s better for us to focus on how we can put our own gifts to good use while not comparing ours to others (Prov 25:27). To overcome pride, we must learn to stop being self-centred and self-appreciating which can lead to self-degradation, if not the degradation of others.

3. What you’re experiencing could very well be a spiritual attack by the devil, who is adept at confusing truths with lies which results in much mayhem and confusion. The best remedy is prayer and imploring divine help (1 Pet 4:8). I receive much strength and encouragement by reading the Psalms and identifying myself with David. The Psalms are my favourite prayers to God. For me they are a great means to pour out to God all that fills my soul. I feel so much closer to Him when I mediate on them and express myself to God in David’s person.

**4. **Resist vain temptations for the sake of self-gratifications, focus on your relationship with God and how to strengthen it, and latch on to His promises.

---

Humble yourselves under the mighty power of God, and at the right time He will lift you up in honor. - 1 Peter 5,6 ***

How do you see and hear?

By being still. Instead of talking to myself all the time, I should pause and be quiet to hear what God has to say. When I pray to our heavenly Father, I wish to open up a dialogue with Him. I tell Him all that’s making me anxious, then I stop to listen to what He has to say.

“Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” - Psalm 46, 10

As Christians, we may interpret the command to “be still” as "to be quiet in God’s presence.” Being in a state of quietness means, in this sense, putting an end to all frantic activity and putting down our arms. For us Christians, being “still” would involve looking to the Lord for our help (Exo 14:13) instead of engaging in a spiritual battle on our own against a much stronger foe than us. For God’s enemies, the dark forces that assail us, being “still” would mean ceasing to fight a battle they cannot win with God on our side. Further, the statement “Know (yada) that I am God” means “to properly ascertain by seeing”, "to acknowledge, and "to be aware.” Acknowledging God has an impact on our stillness. In this state, we see that He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, holy, sovereign, faithful, infinite, and good. If we acknowledge God to be who He really is, we can then trust Him and surrender to His plan for us instead of relying on our selves in our spiritual battle. So lay down your arms and seek refuge in the Lord.

How do you co-operate with His grace?

By being persuaded with the help of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the gift of knowledge being foremost.

How do you stay in this place that we are no better than each other?

By acknowledging that only God is absolutely perfect, and that all our personal assets are gifts from God which we have no claim to. Without Him, we are nothing.

I have a younger brother. Sometimes I feel like I am Esau and my brother is Jacob. Initially I was going to ask how I could reverse this, but instead I was wondering if you could give me advice on how to accept God’s role for me and how I can accept his desire for me.

Keep in mind that God has different plans for each of us for His good purpose. ‘God works for the good to those who love Him’ (Rom 8:28). Essau was his own undoing for not loving God enough. His desire was more important to him than God. Our selfishness alienates us from God.

Rather than complaining, how can one rejoice over just punishment from God for his or her sins? Does God even punish people? Or do we just punish ourselves?

Think of God’s punishment as a means of discipline. It serves to cultivate our souls, correct our mistakes, and curb our passions, that we may mature in the most positive and effective way. Consider it a blessing - not a curse! (Heb 12:3-11)

First of all, God doesn’t want us to punish ourselves. He is our judge. But God does want us to examine our conscience, through which He may speak to us. Any punishment we receive from God, we bring on ourselves.

:heaven:

 

[Gadgeteer]

You, too, Gadgeteer.

:hug3:

I see what you mean. What we do have to strive for is being Christ-like.

Yes, but indirectly; we strive to be closer to Him and that increases our Christ-likeness. When Jesus died, the veil in the temple tore – why? Many Protestants, and Catholics, never “enter within the veil” – to dwell in the very presence of Almighty God. Scripture says “for God so loved the WORLD” – God so loved YOU, that He sent Jesus (one person of the one God), to die, to cleanse you, that you are now invited into the Almighty’s presence. Why?

Because He delights in your company, cherishes your fellowship, enjoys your presence. That’s what the whole thing is about — we (every one of us!) must stop seeing it as “impersonal”, and experience the very person (persons!) of God. “He who has Jesus has eternal life” (1Jn5:11-13) — how do we have Him? In a box up on the shelf? Or do we walk boldly through life, our hand in His, Him leading (“I am crucified with Christ, no longer I who live but Christ lives in me” Gal2:20)?

How real is He to us?

The more we become Christ-like, the more we have overcome sin. Practicing his righteousness is the righteousness that pleases God: works done in charity (agape) and grace out of love for God in His goodness and neighbour. These works sanctify the soul and thus lead to salvation. Yet, even these works are to no avail unless we have a repentant faith. We can never make God indebted to us, for it’s His grace that precedes all our righteous deeds pleasing to Him.

That’s right. Yet we do not pursue “righteous works” — we pursue Him. And Jesus-in-us, does our righteous deeds through us.

That’s what separates our faith from all the other world’s religions; they are all based on good works, “you are what you do”. Christianity is all about heart-change, and then “we do what we (now) are”.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. - 1 john 3, 7

'Zactly. We “do righteous”, because (Matt7:24-27) “no good tree can produce bad fruit (works); we will be known (HE is known IN us) by our fruit.”

It’s not very complicated; why do some make it complicated?

 

[jcrichton]

So often one has to try to pin them down; listing the possible meanings of a particular verse, and saying: “Pick one, or give one of your own!”

Even then, my experience is that most just won’t engage the verse. In the book I’m writing, I refer to Gamaliel plus one — Gamaliel (Acts5:35-39) advised, “If this is of men it will come to nothing; but if it is of GOD, not only will you not be able to overturn it, but you may be found fighting against God.”

…the “plus one”, is — “if this is not of God and you do NOT oppose it, then you allow deception to continue.”

(I’m cracking up here!)

Hi!

…I know it may seem phony (copycat-like) but I have had quite similar reactions as I read through your posts… I have even made attempts to share my thoughts but have restarted the replies so as not to confuse/derail the spirit of the exchange… but since you’ve brought it up: …you cracking up? …sometimes it hits me quite unexpectedly (I am almost completely ignorant of non-Catholic theologies and understanding) and I surrender to the explosive:

When you present Calvinist understanding I just cannot help but feel sorry that so much misunderstanding is being taught and accredited to God’s Revelation…

…at time I can almost feel your fervor to bring the Calvinists to the Fullness of Truth. I believe that the Holy Spirit has awaken this need in you. I can only pray that He keeps Guiding you in your efforts to share the Word of God!

…the most exacting Scriptural passage that I can offer is found in St. John 3:

The only election (predestination) that God has ever made is that “all” be Saved!

VERY excellent citation – I wrote an appendix, “THOSE WHO” – in terms of personal salvation. In no case does Scripture assert “GOD who” (individual salvation). John3, “those who do good come to Jesus the Light, but those who prefer evil avoid the light”. How many times does someone have to read “THOSE WHO”, before they give up the predestinary “God who”?

The word “predestination” is in Scripture. Another of the Primaries is Rom8:29-35 — notice that they do not include verse 28! THOSE WHO love God, are (therefore) predestined (through their voluntary love!) to be Christlike. That’s all it says.
Brother, I’m fully in agreement with you… this is why we cannot truncate Scriptures and apply selective reasoning from those passages that we want to keep while rejecting/voiding Scriptures when passages do not seem to agree with our construct.

How deep are those understandings that basically nullify God’s Salvific Plan? How can Calvinism (and others) ignore:

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. 14 For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:12-14)

St. Paul is not addressing unbelievers/pagans (as I keep hearing from many); St. Paul is clearly telling the Believers that if they live in sin (the flesh) they will die.

…and is God the One Who damns them? NO!

The very next exhortation tells the Believers that it is they that must (with God’s Grace) mortify (give death–crucify, as with the Cross of Christ) their sinful compulsions and their sinful acts… doing this (submitting their will to God’s Will) they are able to Walk being Lead by the Holy Spirit… responding to God’s Call that we “Be Holy, for I AM HOLY!”

A.T.Robertson ("Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament) defers to Lightfoot on Rom1:17, "the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith."

Beginning (faith-the-start), to ending (faith-the-goal). It’s our choice, and it’s our continuous choice from then on.

…this is both a statement and a requirement: if man claims to be in the Light he must Walk (Live) in the Light (again John 15:1-10); it is not “some” have been chosen and are therefore righteous… but that all must choose to Live day by day (moment by moment) in the Faith!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[James248]

Hi, James. “Baptized into His death” – Rom6:1-7 uses five words interchangeably; “died”, “crucified”, “buried”, “immersed” (baptizo), and “united” — into Jesus, through death.

See Mark10:38, “Are you willing to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, to drink the cup that I drink?” The cup was His death; hence, “you have been crucified with Christ (no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us)”. Gal2:20.

Matt26:39, Jn18:11 — “cup”.

Which is what I said?

 

[jcrichton]

Why would the world, Human life, and everything exist if it’s just a screenplay from before time? I really believe Adam and Eve fell, because “love” has to be free to be refused!

Here is the tragedy in Calvinism — pin one down, and ask how he or she KNOWS he’s saved, like those in Luke8:15 — and not just “falsely believing” like those in Luke8:13!

All they have, is — “The Spirit testifies to my soul!”

Oh yeah? That’s what the THIRTEENERS said too, at first! Come on – they “received the word joyfully and BELIEVED”. But (so the doctrine portends), they were not truly-elected but were only FALSELY believing (even though the doctrine says "no one wants to be saved or righteous without prior monergistic heart-change) — God never wanted them, He let them believe joyfully but probably was laughing at them because they were not truly-elected, they were cruelly-rejected!

Goodness; I never knew God had such a sinister side!

By definition, no Calvinist can know he’s saved, until his very last breath on Earth! John said “you can know”, 1:5:11-13.

Hi!

…I’ve heard of similar claims (at least once I was engaged with it on this very forum)… “the elect,” those who God has Saved as Jesus has put them in the Hand of God… those “sheep” that will not lose Salvation… when it comes to those of their groups that have left… well ‘they were never true Believers’ or ‘they were not of the elect (for Salvation)…’ somehow they simply sneaked in till they got found out. :bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

I thought that God saw into our inner most being… that we could not deceive God… that God did not judge my appearance… do you see how their construct nullifies God’s Word… and in so doing they pit themselves, perhaps even unknowingly, against God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

To be fair, all the Calvinists I’ve discoursed with do not advocate “license-to-sin”. They really do believe that we have to be walking in righteousness…

Of course, Calvinists don’t advocate a license to sin, but they do subscribe to the notion of synthetic justification. More precisely, once a person accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour, God declares the perfect righteousness of Christ to be his by imputation. The righteousness which Catholics believe must inhere in the believer himself by the grace of sanctification doesn’t justify him before God. Calvinists believe that the righteousness of the believer is too imperfect to meet the divine standard, albeit the power of God’s grace. Christ’s external righteousness must be super-imposed upon the believer’s internal righteousness, so to speak, for him to be declared just by God. Thus, the corollary is that whatever the believer does, viz., repent, is superfluous because it fails to meet the divine standard of perfection. Repentance is nothing more than a sign of being saved. If one has truly accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour in faith, he will repent. But, meanwhile, it isn’t his sincere act of contrition in grace that renders him just, but rather his personal faith in Jesus alone that justifies him; since his Lord and Saviour’s righteousness is imputed to him when he repents of his sins by his faith in Christ’s merits. If what Calvinists believe is true, then what Jesus exhorts us to be is non-sequitur: “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48). In Protestant reformed theology, sanctification isn’t the formal cause of justification. Holiness is merely a required condition for having Christ’s alien righteousness imputed to the believer. Sanctity serves to confirm that a person has faith, nothing more. Walking in righteousness as Jesus walked in righteousness merely demonstrates that one is declared to be justified by the imputation of Christ’s absolutely perfect righteousness rather than one has been made acceptably righteous and so is justified while remaining in God’s grace.

***Happy are those whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is remitted.
Happy are those to whom the Lord imputes no guilt,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
Psalm 32, 1-2 ***

:heaven: