A question about Romans 9

[jcrichton]

That’s as good a refutation of Calvinism as was ever required. Per Reformed Theology, the “right to be sons of God”, is predestined by God, being set before the Creation.

…the right to become sons of God, is not granted until someone receives Him." (That of course fits Eph2:3, “we were children of wrath the same as the rest”)

…Clearly He knew about the fall, before He created things;…We are commanded to love God; if we were not free to say “yes” or “no”, it would not be love.

“For (Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
who through Him are believers in God…” 1Pet1:20-21

“Foreknown” — proginōskō, King James “foreordained”…

Hi!

…this is where predestination, election and Eternal Salvation come into play… in Christ, before the Beginning of the World, God put in Effect His Salvific Plan… humanity, BC and AD, have been Saved, have been Granted Absolution, have been Elected and Predestined for Salvation!

…as the Salvific Plan Unfolds… the Messiah, Jesus the God the Saves, Who is the Promise, is finally Revealed:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son… that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. …if a son, an heir also through God.

(Galatians 4:4-7)
…so at the fullness of times the Immanuel (God-with-us) Came for the purpose of Granting man the Promise: Christ the inheritance into eternity:

25 Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: 26 And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?

(St. John 11:25-26)
…Jesus Brings Salvation to all, both near and far:

17 And coming, he preached peace to you that were afar off, and peace to them that were nigh. 18 For by him we have access both in one Spirit to the Father

. 19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, …being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. (Ephesians 2:17-21)
No limits set: all are Called.

Yes. And – over and over and over we’re warned against “being deceived away from Jesus”. A true child-of-God can become “illegitimate” by ceasing to submit to His discipline. Heb12:7-9.

…God will never revoke His

gift; but there must be fear in our walk with Him — “do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God — to those who fell severity, to you kindness if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you also will be cut off!”

I…confidently with our hand in His, painfully aware of our weakness and ability to turn away from Him.

If I was married — would I have to consciously work on increasing my relationship? Of course. Why would God be any different?
That’s exactly the relationship between God and man… Yahweh God, the Jealous God, took Israel as the Bride… in the fullness of time Jesus, the Bridegroom, took the Church (all peoples from all the nations of the world) as the Bride… as St. Paul said, ‘What Great Mystery: Christ and the Church!’

There is no sin too great, no offense too horrible, to turn God’s love away from anyone. God so loved every person reading this, that Jesus died so that each of us could live. The secret of Christianity is that “we are new creations” – we put on the new man (or woman!), we are therefore not the same person as the one who did that offense, in God’s eyes it is as if we never sinned.

This is a position absolutely entered by conscious choice — and it’s the same choice tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.
Exactly! Jesus tells us that only by rejecting the Holy Spirit (curtailing His Efficacy and Power in us) do we incur a sin that cannot be forgiven–how can God force into Fellowship those who reject His Authority and Love? As hard as it is for Him to see one man lost, He will not act against man’s free will!

This is my motivation – whether talking to Protestants, to Catholics, or to anyone else — to encourage brothers and sisters closer to Him. To stop trying to “be good for God”, but rather to learn how to let Him be our goodness through us.

To not promote a complacent “sit-back-and-let-God-do-everything”, but to truly take His hand, and let Him lead us in paths of righteousness; picking up our own feet to firmly follow in His footsteps.

(Hope I worded that right!)

:grouphug:
I commend your determination for that is the Call which we, Believers, must answer:

11…For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.

(Ephesians 4:11-14)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
But** encourage one another day after day,** as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers (partners!) of Christ, **if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” ** Heb3:12-14

…what’s that Grammatical term… oh yeah, “action:” it is not a body at rest here… but a body in motion… echoing Christ’s:

13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

(St. Matthew 24:13)
Clearly Christ did not mean hold on fast to an idea but to Him: “if you Love Me…”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…this is where predestination, election and Eternal Salvation come into play… in Christ, before the Beginning of the World, God put in Effect His Salvific Plan… humanity, BC and AD, have been Saved, have been Granted Absolution, have been Elected and Predestined for Salvation!

…as the Salvific Plan Unfolds… the Messiah, Jesus the God the Saves, Who is the Promise, is finally Revealed:

citation (Galatians 4:4-7)

…so at the fullness of times the Immanuel (God-with-us) Came for the purpose of Granting man the Promise: Christ the inheritance into eternity:
citation (St. John 11:25-26)

And that’s the answer to the Calvinists’ claim for Eph1:4-5 — one of the Primaries, "God sovereignly elects some to salvation and sovereignly elects the rest to be wicked and to perish."

Nooooo, God’s predestined-plan was bestowed on us in the BELOVED, that all who believe should not perish but have eternal life…

…Jesus Brings Salvation to all, both near and far:
citation (Ephesians 2:17-21)

Critical is that we acknowledge none were adopted/begotten sons UNTIL they believed and received Jesus. We were all children-of-Hell the same as the rest (Eph2:3) — gone forever is any thought that "we were always God’s special favorites sovereign-predestined-sons".

No limits set: all are Called.

Scripture cannot be saying anything else; and it says it over, and over, and over again.

What use is a doctrine that has to start marking out Scriptures like Matt22:14, 1Tim2:1-4, 1Tim4:10, Titus2:11, on and on?

That’s exactly the relationship between God and man… Yahweh God, the Jealous God, took Israel as the Bride… in the fullness of time Jesus, the Bridegroom, took the Church (all peoples from all the nations of the world) as the Bride… as St. Paul said, ‘What Great Mystery: Christ and the Church!’

Precisely! “The relationship between God and man” – we are UNITED with Christ, He is the bridegroom, we are the bride. Let’s stop treating it as something “casual”, going through life as if we are in control and He’s only there if we need assistance!

“I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Gal2:20

“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.” Philip2:12-13

The secret of Christianity is that “we are new creations” – we put on the new man (or woman!), we are therefore not the same person as the one who did that offense, in God’s eyes it is as if we never sinned. This is a position absolutely entered by conscious choice — and it’s the same choice tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

Exactly! Jesus tells us that only by rejecting the Holy Spirit (curtailing His Efficacy and Power in us) do we incur a sin that cannot be forgiven–how can God force into Fellowship those who reject His Authority and Love? As hard as it is for Him to see one man lost, He will not act against man’s free will!

Fellowship! “Do not be drunk with wine, but BE FILLED with the Holy Spirit”. Eph5:18. “He who has (Jesus) has eternal life!” 1Jn5:12 “Our FELLOWSHIP is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus!” 1Jn1:3

I commend your determination for that is the Call which we, Believers, must answer:

11…For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. (Ephesians 4:11-14)

And continuing on for the next few verses, do not walk in wickedness as heathens do, excluded from the life of God; lay aside the old sinful self, put on the new righteous godly self!

Be renewed in the spirit of your mind!

YOU! DO this! Continually!

Why is there still any kind of “OSAS” debate?

 

[jcrichton]

And that’s the answer to the Calvinists’ claim for Eph1:4-5 — one of the Primaries, "God sovereignly elects some to salvation and sovereignly elects the rest to be wicked and to perish."

Nooooo, God’s predestined-plan was bestowed on us in the BELOVED, that all who believe should not perish but have eternal life…

Critical is that we acknowledge none were adopted/begotten sons UNTIL they believed and received Jesus. We were all children-of-Hell the same as the rest (Eph2:3) — gone forever is any thought that "we were always God’s special favorites sovereign-predestined-sons".
Scripture cannot be saying anything else; and it says it over, and over, and over again.

What use is a doctrine that has to start marking out Scriptures like Matt22:14, 1Tim2:1-4, 1Tim4:10, Titus2:11, on and on?

Hi!

…this is why it is important to not only Believe in Christ but to Believe Christ… the OSAS theology (and its derivatives) fail to Believe Christ:

10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

(1 Timothy 4:10)
This is Inspired by the Holy Spirit… it is part of the Revelation of the Fullness of the Truth which Jesus Promised… the Jews and converts may not have been able to fully understand that… yet, as the Holy Spirit Unfolded Christ to the Church He Convicted them that Yahweh God was not only a God of the Jews (‘Israel, my firstborn’) but of all mankind!:

God’s Purpose is that all shall be Save–yet, since He is Omniscient and Omnipresent, He Knows that not all will choose to Believe Christ is their Salvation… still, others would not only refuse Salvation but would forbid/hinder others from gaining Salvation.

Precisely! “The relationship between God and man” – we are UNITED with Christ

, He is the bridegroom, we are the bride. Let’s stop treating it as something “casual”, going through life as if we are in control and He’s only there if we need assistance!

“I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Gal2:20

“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.” Philip2:12-13

Fellowship! “Do not be drunk with wine, but BE FILLED with the Holy Spirit”. Eph5:18. “He who has (Jesus) has eternal life!” 1Jn5:12 “Our FELLOWSHIP is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus!” 1Jn1:3
Scriptures are clear… it is through active and willing submission to Christ that we gain Salvation–none are accursed (elected) for damnation; none are above the loss of Salvation if they reject/refuse to make Christ the Object of their Faith.

And continuing on for the next few verses, do not walk in wickedness as heathens do, excluded from the life of God;

lay aside the old sinful self, put on the new righteous godly self!

Be renewed in the spirit of your mind!

YOU! DO this! Continually!

Why is there still any kind of “OSAS” debate?


It is the requirement of those who Claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior!

It is our obligation to maintain allegiance with Christ–it is not our job to judge nor to determine who will gain Salvation; each person must account for his/her adherence or rejection of Christ:

10 But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.
. (Romans 14:10-13)
How unjust would it be for Yahweh God to hold to account those that would have been “predestined” for damnation… and how redundant would it be to pass Judgment on those who have been “predestined” for Salvation?

…in deed Scriptures Call us to awake:

14 This is why it is said:
“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

(Ephesians 5:14-17)
…again, what opportunity would be granted to a person who has been “predestined” to Eternal Damnation?

…why would a person “predestined” for Salvation need to capitalize on any opportunities to gain the Salvation they already “own?”

…Adam and Eve were not the only suckers deceived by the Ancient Serpent’s sweet-sounding interpretations of the Word of God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…this is why it is important to not only Believe in Christ but to Believe Christ… the OSAS theology (and its derivatives) fail to Believe Christ:
(citation 1Tim4:10)
This is Inspired by the Holy Spirit… it is part of the Revelation of the Fullness of the Truth which Jesus Promised… the Jews and converts may not have been able to fully understand that… yet, as the Holy Spirit Unfolded Christ to the Church He Convicted them that Yahweh God was not only a God of the Jews (‘Israel, my firstborn’) but of all mankind!

Yes. That apparently was a shock for the Jewish mind; Peter had to be confronted by a direct vision.

God’s Purpose is that all shall be Saved–yet, since He is Omniscient and Omnipresent, He Knows that not all will choose to Believe Christ is their Salvation… still, others would not only refuse Salvation but would forbid/hinder others from gaining Salvation.

Very much so – see Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, and especially Matt23:13-15!

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Those who ARE ENTERING – in what Universe can we overstamp “are-entering”, into “NOT REALLY”? Yes some who really ARE ENTERING, can be HINDERED/STOPPED/SHUT-OFF.

Scriptures are clear… it is through active and willing submission to Christ that we gain Salvation–none are accursed (elected) for damnation; none are above the loss of Salvation if they reject/refuse to make Christ the Object of their Faith.

I agree, with the small caveat of “entering into a union with the real person of Jesus”. He who has the Son – “echō”, to possess! He who possesses the Son possesses eternal life.

This reflects 1Pet1:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

We ARE SAVED, who have Jesus; and – we ARE BEING saved, who continue to abide in Him. We are protected by God’s power (His!), through faith (ours!) for salvation to be revealed in the end. We receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation, 1Pet1:9.

It is the requirement of those who Claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior!

It is our obligation to maintain allegiance with Christ–it is not our job to judge nor to determine who will gain Salvation; each person must account for his/her adherence or rejection of Christ:

Absolutely – over and over! I find it astonishing that so many refuse to acknowledge our “abiding in Him and in salvation”.

How unjust would it be for Yahweh God to hold to account those that would have been “predestined” for damnation… and how redundant would it be to pass Judgment on those who have been “predestined” for Salvation?

“Just” — also means RIGHTEOUS. Is God unrighteous? This alone should be a no-brainer! :doh2:

…in deed Scriptures Call us to awake:

…again, what opportunity would be granted to a person who has been “predestined” to Eternal Damnation?

…why would a person “predestined” for Salvation need to capitalize on any opportunities to gain the Salvation they already “own?”

…Adam and Eve were not the only suckers deceived by the Ancient Serpent’s sweet-sounding interpretations of the Word of God!

Amen again. And Paul states "we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden! 2Cor11:3!

 

[jcrichton]

Yes. That apparently was a shock for the Jewish mind; Peter had to be confronted by a direct vision.

Very much so – see Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, and especially Matt23:13-15!

Hi!

…we can see that in their early attempts to demand that converts become first Jewish then Christians… this practice was soon terminated as they understood God’s Call that they (both folds) be One.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Those who ARE ENTERING – in what Universe can we overstamp “are-entering”, into “NOT REALLY”? Yes some who really ARE ENTERING, can be HINDERED/STOPPED/SHUT-OFF.
Scriptures are touching all aspects: there are those who are seeking the Kingdom of God; there are those who are willingly rejecting the Kingdom of God; there are those who are hindering others from entering into the Kingdom of God: Scriptures got them coming and going: man is a willing participant in his Salvation–God wouldn’t have it any other way!

I agree, with the small caveat of "entering into a union

with the real person of Jesus". He who has the Son – “echō”, to possess! He who possesses the Son possesses eternal life.

This reflects 1Pet1:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

We ARE SAVED, who have Jesus; and – we ARE BEING saved, who continue to abide in Him. We are protected by God’s power (His!), through faith (ours!) for salvation to be revealed in the end. We receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation, 1Pet1:9.
I think this is one of those “vocabulary” moments… I feel we are saying the same thing but maybe missing each other just a tad…

My understanding of submission to Christ and making Him the Object of our Faith is in tune with Christ’s:

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing.

(St. John 14:15; 15:5)

Absolutely – over and over! I find it astonishing

that so many refuse to acknowledge our “abiding in Him and in salvation”.

“Just” — also means RIGHTEOUS. Is God unrighteous? This alone should be a no-brainer! :doh2:

Amen again. And Paul states "we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden! 2Cor11:3!


…it seems so simple, for me: He, the Light of the world came to His own but they rejected Him; then He gave the power to become sons of God to all who Believed in Him (St. John 14:15)–yet, not all Believed and these have fallen to the Judgment of God’s Word (St. John 3:16-21).

Though Salvation is predestined to all man, each person must “choose” Life in order that he/she shall Live!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

:tiphat:

…we can see that in their early attempts to demand that converts become first Jewish then Christians… this practice was soon terminated as they understood God’s Call that they (both folds) be One.

Interesting.

Wild that Christians consider themselves, “adopted Jews”…

Scriptures are touching all aspects: there are those who are seeking the Kingdom of God; there are those who are willingly rejecting the Kingdom of God; there are those who are hindering others from entering into the Kingdom of God: Scriptures got them coming and going: man is a willing participant in his Salvation–God wouldn’t have it any other way!

Every bit of Scripture teaches that from several different angles. In dealing with Calvinistic thought (on passages especially like Rom9, on which this thread was posted) — first show that their Predestined-Salvation verses do not teach that, then show all the clear verses that speak of “falling from salvation”.

…and behind all of that, promote the foundation that salvation is a union between two real people – 'Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me (Jesus)." Jn17:3.

It’s a union of love, and love cannot demand who loves anyone back. Love cannot demand its own way — 1Cor13:5.

I think this is one of those “vocabulary” moments… I feel we are saying the same thing but maybe missing each other just a tad…

My understanding of submission to Christ and making Him the Object of our Faith is in tune with Christ’s:

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. (St. John 14:15; 15:5)

You do good citations.

I’m just focused on trying to get people to see Jesus as a person, so they’ll take Him off of His neatly wrapped and boxed-up-place on their shelf, and get them to fellowship with Him. Many times when telling unbelievers who Jesus is, I’ll say – “ASK Him if He’s real, and if He wants you; but if you mean it when you ask, be prepared for Him to answer you and knock your socks off! That’s what happened to me!”

…it seems so simple, for me: He, the Light of the world came to His own but they rejected Him; then He gave the power to become sons of God to all who Believed in Him (St. John 14:15)–yet, not all Believed and these have fallen to the Judgment of God’s Word (St. John 3:16-21).

Though Salvation is predestined to all man, each person must “choose” Life in order that he/she shall Live!

And not just “choose life”; but choose Jesus and life tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

There are only two real-estates in the Universe. In Christ, and in sin. The devil knows he can’t deceive most all at once; if he can get believers to just turn a little off the path, a little isn’t so bad. But slowly and stealthily a little becomes a little more and a little more, until the unwary person finds himself in the THICKET and the path is nowhere in sight!



“But encourage one another, lest anyone be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin …to an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God…” Heb3:12-14

That’s my job to each person here, and that’s the job of each person here to ME. For us to encourage each other closer to Him, that we stay family — in His presence, forever!

:grouphug:

 

[Huiou_Theou]

14

• What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!l
  15
  For he says to Moses:
  “I will show mercy to whom I will,
  I will take pity on whom I will.”m
  16
  So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
  17

I feel like I might be a vessel of wrath.

Odd, but the verses don’t say “and I will show wrath to whom I will show wrath.”

Notice that Paul first lists two characters; that of Jacob and Esau. They were spoken of back in verse 9.

Paul says “I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. (eg: Jacob) I will show pity on whom I will show pity. (eg: Esau).”

You perhaps don’t know you history very well?

In the end, Esau (as a man) received blessings from God at the hand of Jacob. Esau had long since repented of the evil he had planned to do to his brother Jacob. God had always loved Esau less than he loved Jacob. But, note carefully: God had PITY on Esau as a man.

Esau ate pottage, he never ate idol meat; but his children (the nation of Esau/Edom) eventually followed their mother’s ways. Esau the nation, (AKA Edom), was eventually condemned. However, If you read Paul and Romans 9 carefully; you’ll notice that he never actually condemns Esau (the man) as being a vessel of wrath.

The hate that God speaks of for Esau doesn’t have to be any worse than the hate which Jacob had for Leah.

For “Jacob loved Rachel and hated Leah.” Genesis 29 (Greek/Hebrew) Yet, you will not find Jacob doing malicious things to Leah. That’s not the kind of hate that Jacob had for Leah. It’s not hate in the English/malicious sense of the word. Rather, Jacob treats his first (and true wife) fairly. However, he gives his second wife preferences whenever he gets the chance. His feelings for Rachel’s beauty are much stronger than for Leah and he treats her preferentially.

God sees some kind of beauty in Jacob.
Esau and Jacob could not both receive exactly the same blessings. One had to be preferred over the other. An arbitrary decision had to be made. And so, God chooses.
But note … St. Paul, tempers his railing against Esau and says “Pity” rather than “wrath.”

Only after Paul begins speaking of Pharaoh, does he say: “And I will harden whom I will harden.” That is a situation differing from Esau. Pharaoh never received a promise like Jacob did and handed on to his sons (including Esau.)

Look carefully, the descendants of Esau are also called “Edomites.”
Long after Esau dies Moses specifically told the israelites not to abhor an Edomite.
So, even hundreds of years after Esau died … Esau’s children were still considered to be objects of mercy of God. Deuteronomy 23:7 “An Edomite you shall not abhor.”

Why then, do you tempt yourself with a claim based on a feeling?

God’s mercy and pity is very long standing. He was even patient with Pharaoh, who never received the promise as do Christians. How much more will he be patient with you if you have received his baptism and accept his grace?

 

[jcrichton]

Interesting.

Wild that Christians consider themselves, “adopted Jews”…

Well, it’s the human condition… Jews converts would retain their previous theological meter… St. Paul, though he admonished against the practice of double conversion (first to Judaism and then to Christianity), shared what was Reveled to him in respect to the Jews and Gentile; he hammered this out in Romans 9 through 11… so while Christians have our roots in Judaism, as John the Baptist stated: ‘I (Judaism) must decrease and He (Christ) must increase!’

So we hold fast to that which is our foundation of Fellowship in Yahweh God (our roots in Judaism) while adapting to the New Covenant’s tenets, norms, and decrees, in Christianity.

Every bit of Scripture teaches that from several different angles. In dealing with Calvinistic thought (on passages especially like Rom9, on which this thread was posted) — first show that their Predestined-Salvation verses do not

teach that, then show all the clear verses that speak of “falling from salvation”.

…and behind all of that, promote the foundation that salvation is a union between two real people – 'Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me (Jesus)." Jn17:3.

It’s a union of love, and love cannot demand who loves anyone back. Love cannot demand its own way — 1Cor13:5.
I follow what you are saying… our differences in that you come from a view that is closer to their understanding then mine… as a young child I learned that I had a deep personal relationship with Christ… that when I went to Mass I would be transcending (an adult understanding–not that I even dreamt of this technicality as a child) time and space and joining with Christ as I Received the Holy Eucharist: the True Bread from Heaven!

…so when I am confronted with something as Calvinism I’m like that character in the Princess Bride, constantly thinking: ‘that’s “inconceivable!” How can they not understand our Fellowship with God?.. it’s right there in Scriptures!’

…that theology of Love disproves everything that points against God’s Love, Mercy and Justice!

You do good citations.

Thanks! I pray that the Holy Spirit continues to Inspire me till my dying breath… when dealing with Scriptures I feel like that proverbial kid in the candy store… loving every moment!

I’m just focused on trying to get people to see Jesus as a person,

so they’ll take Him off of His neatly wrapped and boxed-up-place on their shelf, and get them to fellowship with Him. Many times when telling unbelievers who Jesus is, I’ll say – “ASK Him if He’s real, and if He wants you; but if you mean it when you ask, be prepared for Him to answer you and knock your socks off! That’s what happened to me!”
It is the Relationship that Christ wants with us… 'who ever Listens to the Father and Comes to Me, I will not reject (composite of St. John 6:37 and 44-45)… and the intimacy is not simply implicit:

28 ‘Come to me, all you who labour and are overburdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Shoulder my yoke and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 Yes, my yoke is easy and my burden light.’

(St. Matthew 11:28-30)

And not just “choose life”; but choose Jesus and life tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

There are

only two real-estates in the Universe. In Christ, and in sin. The devil knows he can’t deceive most all at once; if he can get believers to just turn a little off the path, a little isn’t so bad. But slowly and stealthily a little becomes a little more and a little more, until the unwary person finds himself in the THICKET and the path is nowhere in sight!

“But encourage one another, lest anyone be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin …to an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God…” Heb3:12-14
Exactly! That’s why I capitalize the beginning of certain words… to convey this relationship (reflection of the Divine); I concur with you on the cunnings of the devil… it is like yeast… it takes very little, and, as it works its way in the dough, it leavens the lot… Knowing that our Fellowship is in Christ and that we are not alone, it is the only way that we can, with conviction and determination, choose Life.

There are two passages in Scriptures that I find that demonstrate that it is a constant (day/moment per day/moment) Call, that it is not a matter of a once in a lifetime implementation:

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you** today**

: I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, (Deuteronomy 10:19)

3** Every day, as long as this ‘today’ lasts**, keep encouraging one another so that none of you is hardened by the lure of sin, (Hebrews 3:13)

That’s my job to each person here, and that’s the job of each person here to ME.

For us to encourage each other closer to Him, that we stay family — in His presence, forever!

:grouphug:
That’s why Christ Calls us into His Unity:

20 I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. 21 May they all be one. Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.

(St. John 17:20-21)
I pray Christ’s prayer that the Body Be Healed that the we in deed Be one!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Well, it’s the human condition… Jews converts would retain their previous theological meter… St. Paul, though he admonished against the practice of double conversion (first to Judaism and then to Christianity), shared what was Reveled to him in respect to the Jews and Gentile; he hammered this out in Romans 9 through 11… so while Christians have our roots in Judaism, as John the Baptist stated: ‘I (Judaism) must decrease and He (Christ) must increase!’

So we hold fast to that which is our foundation of Fellowship in Yahweh God (our roots in Judaism) while adapting to the New Covenant’s tenets, norms, and decrees, in Christianity.

Interesting. Did you see the discussion (or you’re probably aware) about Rom9’s use of “Jacob and Esau”, indicating the two covenants? Obviously Paul was thinking of Genesis 25:23.

I follow what you are saying… our differences in that you come from a view that is closer to their understanding then mine… as a young child I learned that I had a deep personal relationship with Christ… that when I went to Mass I would be transcending (an adult understanding–not that I even dreamt of this technicality as a child) time and space and joining with Christ as I Received the Holy Eucharist: the True Bread from Heaven!

You’re right, I’m not understanding this. In what respect do you “transcend time and space and join with Christ”?

…so when I am confronted with something as Calvinism I’m like that character in the Princess Bride, constantly thinking: ‘that’s “inconceivable!” How can they not understand our Fellowship with God?.. it’s right there in Scriptures!’

Maybe it’s because some of them are — mostly dead???

…that theology of Love disproves everything that points against God’s Love, Mercy and Justice!

Not that “theology-of-love” is external to Scriptures, or in any conflict. You and I read, “God so loved the WORLD” (and verses like 1Jn2:2 “holos-kosmos-WHOLE-WORLD”), and we are frustrated when they pick up their cans of spraypaint and paint over many verses with, “God only loved SOME of them!”

Thanks! I pray that the Holy Spirit continues to Inspire me till my dying breath… when dealing with Scriptures I feel like that proverbial kid in the candy store… loving every moment!

You and I are fallible Humans; it’s possible for anyone (including us) to think we’re lead by the Spirit, but diverge from Scripture. The Spirit is not going to teach contrary to what the Apostles wrote. And that very statement is the basis of conversation with a Calvinist. When shown in Scripture the OPPOSITE of what they thought, they have the choice of accepting Scripture, or following the spirit they have swallowed.

Sorry to write “spirit” with a little “s” — if whatever or whoever is guiding them CONFLICTS Apostolic writings, what would be the reason for throwing out the writings for that luring spirit?

It is the Relationship that Christ wants with us… 'who ever Listens to the Father and Comes to Me, I will not reject (composite of St. John 6:37 and 44-45)… and the intimacy is not simply implicit:
(citation Matt11:28-30)

That very verse — “COME to Me all WHO are weary”! In what Universe would that make sense if men do not really come, but God YANKS a few to Himself and shoves the rest away?

Perhaps when people start recognizing the silliness of certain ideas, they will reconsider those ideas?

Exactly! That’s why I capitalize the beginning of certain words… to convey this relationship (reflection of the Divine); I concur with you on the cunnings of the devil… it is like yeast… it takes very little, and, as it works its way in the dough, it leavens the lot… Knowing that our Fellowship is in Christ and that we are not alone, it is the only way that we can, with conviction and determination, choose Life.

One cannot guard against DANGER, if one does not perceive something AS dangerous. If you or I thought we could never truly become unsaved, would we be more or less at risk?

Some day a Calvinist will explain to me how he or she reads “build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love” – and dozens of other “you need diligence …SO THAT you inherit the promises” – and still think that “it’s all guaranteed”???

"Don’t worry, you won’t really die!"

There’s a literary term — “siren song”???

There are two passages in Scriptures that I find that demonstrate that it is a constant (day/moment per day/moment) Call, that it is not a matter of a once in a lifetime implementation:

You know, in my book I have an appendix summarizing four letters — Galatians, Hebrews, James, and 2Peter — entire books that exist to warn against real apostasy.

That’s why Christ Calls us into His Unity:

I pray Christ’s prayer that the Body Be Healed that the we in deed Be one!

Yes. Doesn’t matter the denomination (any Protestants, or Catholics) — when we are together with Jesus, we’ll have some good laughs over which of our understandings were right, and which were wrong. But critical is a common base, that is – “salvation by God’s grace through our faith, Christ-in-you, a union between two very real people. Jesus, and believer.”

And that we are also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, also a real person, also divine.

There are two great commands, “Love God with all you are, and love each other”. On this all of the law and prophets found. And, “He who has Jesus has eternal life”. These are our common threads that bind us together as brothers and sisters. When He returns, we shall be true family with Him, forever.

And THAT, is the “treasure we can take with us”.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Whether this thread continues or not, I really appreciate the conversation (especially jcrichton) – and hope I have been a fraction as much a blessing to all of you, as each of you has been to me.

 

[jcrichton]

Whether this thread continues or not, I really appreciate the conversation (especially jcrichton) – and hope I have been a fraction as much a blessing to all of you, as each of you has been to me.

Hi!

…I think that the system broke down on 169/170…

I’ll reply now…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Interesting. Did you see the discussion (or you’re probably aware) about Rom9’s use of “Jacob and Esau”, indicating the two covenants? Obviously Paul was thinking of Genesis 25:23.

Hi!

…yes there’s that in play… but we also have the Revelation that God’s Promise (Salvific Plan) is fully dependent upon God’s Will not man’s as we have the selection of Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau and Ephraim over Manasseh…

You’re right, I’m not understanding this. In what respect do you “transcend time and space and join with Christ”?

The Breaking of the Bread Brings us to Christ’s Last Supper: His Offering for the New Covenant–which we share every time that we partake of His Body and Blood. We are united with Christ and in Christ with His Death and Resurrection in an intimacy that the Apostles shared as they, Obeying Christ, Began the Practice of sharing Christ’s Body and Blood.

We do not have a Savior that is outside of us and our reality: He is truly the Fountain whose Living Water Flows to the world through us, the Believers:

54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

(St. John 6:54-59)

You and I are fallible Humans; it’s possible for anyone

(including us) to think we’re lead by the Spirit, but diverge from Scripture. The Spirit is not going to teach contrary to what the Apostles wrote. And that very statement is the basis of conversation with a Calvinist. When shown in Scripture the OPPOSITE of what they thought, they have the choice of accepting Scripture, or following the spirit they have swallowed.

Sorry to write “spirit” with a little “s” — if whatever or whoever is guiding them CONFLICTS Apostolic writings, what would be the reason for throwing out the writings for that luring spirit?
I understand… Scriptures also make note of being led by the Spirit of God vs. not; this is not a new heresy… it stands right from Scriptures (2 St. Peter 2:1-22).

That very verse — “COME to Me all WHO are weary”! In what Universe

would that make sense if men do not really come, but God YANKS a few to Himself and shoves the rest away?

Perhaps when people start recognizing the silliness of certain ideas, they will reconsider those ideas?


One cannot guard against DANGER, if one does not perceive something AS dangerous. If you or I thought we could never truly become unsaved, would we be more or less at risk?

Some day a Calvinist will explain to me how he or she reads “build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love” – and dozens of other “you need diligence …SO THAT you inherit the promises” – and still think that “it’s all guaranteed”???

"Don’t worry, you won’t really die!"

There’s a literary term — “siren song”???
I think it is ego blended with family loyalty and a sense of comfort… that’s why Catholics engage in the Examination of Conscience… so that we can detect those sins such as pride, doubt, and disbelief…

Yes. Doesn’t matter the denomination (any Protestants, or Catholics) — when we are together with Jesus, we’ll have some good laughs over which of our understandings were right, and which were wrong. But critical is a common base, that is – “salvation by God’s grace through our faith, Christ-in-you, a union between two very real people. Jesus, and believer.”

And that we are also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, also a real person, also divine.

There are two great commands, “Love God with all you are, and love each other”. On this all of the law and prophets found. And, “He who has Jesus has eternal life”. These are our common threads that bind us together as brothers and sisters. When He returns, we shall be true family with Him, forever.

And THAT, is the “treasure we can take with us”.

I find it interesting how people miss Revelations that are much “in your face:”

• Jesus = God Saves
• Immanuel = God-with-us
• God is Spirit

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[animalis]

“How lovingly Jesus embraces the wood which is to bring him to death! Is it not true that as soon as you cease to be afraid of the Cross, of what people call the cross, when you set your will to accept the Will of God, then you find happiness, and all your worries, all your sufferings, physical or moral, pass away? Truly the Cross of Jesus is gentle and lovable. There, sorrows cease to count; there is only the joy of knowing that we are co-redeemers with him” (St Josemaría Escrivá, The Way of the Cross, II).

Saint Paul’s Captivity Letters. (2005). (p. 100). Dublin; New York: Four Courts Press; Scepter Publishers.

say to yourself “I accept” in the face of every negativity. It’s that simple. And proceed to confession every week.