A question for Catholics only please

  • Thread starter Thread starter eucharist04
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You are choosing to believe what you choose to believe. I believe what the church has sanctioned…and I read on EWTN website the account of Fatima that the church agrees is true…I don’t beleive people that are agaisnt the church and tell others the church makes up stories

Two of those children died just as Lucia said they would, how did she manage that

It matters little to me whether you believe it or not. I don’t think my church is a liar…the pope believed it, and said so publicly

Lucia’s story never wavered, the church investigates this stuff, they just don’t take things on somones say so…

Peopl have spread lies about Padre Pio and every saintly person that has ever lived…Lucia’s cause for canonization has been started
 
I have been a Catholic for 4 years and I still have struggles when it comes to Marian devotions and Mary sightings around the world. My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:

If yes, please explain.

if no, please explain.
No.

As others have mentioned, Mary always points the way to her Son, Jesus.

The Bible notes:

1 John 4:2-3
“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”

Mary certainly has & does acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

After all, she would know!!!

God Bless,

Chris
 
You are choosing to believe what you choose to believe. I believe what the church has sanctioned…and I read on EWTN website the account of Fatima that the church agrees is true…I don’t beleive people that are agaisnt the church and tell others the church makes up stories

Two of those children died just as Lucia said they would, how did she manage that

It matters little to me whether you believe it or not. I don’t think my church is a liar…the pope believed it, and said so publicly

Lucia’s story never wavered, the church investigates this stuff, they just don’t take things on somones say so…

People have spread lies about Padre Pio and every saintly person that has ever lived…Lucia’s cause for canonization has been started
Actually, I did read a report once that Therese Neumann was spotted wearing sunglasses, ordering a Big Mäc and fries at the Konnersreuth McDonalds.

Seriously though, when fantastic claims are made, claims that are contrary to reason, the burden of proof falls on the entity making the claim. The exceptions are scriptural and traditional articles of religious faith.

I would never believe that Christ was born of a virgin, rose from the dead, or is really present in the Eucharist if those were not articles of my religion, but I would follow His teachings in any case, because they stand on their own.

The Fatima apparitions come nowhere near that. The Church only informs the faithful that nothing in the WELL-DOCUMENTED accounts of those incidents is contrary to established Catholic doctrine.

The claims of fringe or beyond-fringe groups, whose names I cannot even mention without violating the rules of these forums, have no credibilty whatever, and it is toward these heretics that your anger should be directed.

Claiming that private revelation is binding on either the leadership or the membership of the RCC is heresy, at least that is my understanding. Yet that is very close to what Lucia asserts in the letter to the pope which I posted above.

The fact that the Church finally ordered her to stop making her visions public is quite significant.

Now, having noted that, there is no question that she was a saintly woman, so her eventual canonization, should it occur, should not be of the least concern to those who view her claims with more than a grain of salt.
 
Seeing she lived most of her life behind the walls of a very cloistered convent, I don’t know how she could have made things public if she would have wanted to…infact she went to a second convent more strict than the first by her own choosing, and subject herself to penances even beyond what the convent dictated

She has written a book or two within the walls of the cloister about her revelations…many saints had more than one or two private revelations

She was the object of ridicule right from the get go because Portugal was atheistic and violently anti Catholic…the government was run by Freemasons, and jailed the children trying to making them recant their story they terrorized them but the children all stuck with their story and it was the same account…the 3 children were questioned separately and they all told the same story

I never have heard or read anything that claims she was told to shut up by the church…I just read another article about her from the catholic herald…nothing was even mentioned about either claim that you have made

You will never have any trouble finding someone to brand the church and catholics as liars, and be willing to say hate filled accounts as to how they know this
 
  1. Seeing she lived most of her life behind the walls of a very cloistered convent, I don’t know how she could have made things public if she would have wanted to…infact she went to a second convent more strict than the first by her own choosing, and subject herself to penances even beyond what the convent dictated
  2. She has written a book or two within the walls of the cloister about her revelations…many saints had more than one or two private revelations
  3. She was the object of ridicule right from the get go because Portugal was atheistic and violently anti Catholic…the government was run by Freemasons, and jailed the children trying to making them recant their story they terrorized them but the children all stuck with their story and it was the same account…the 3 children were questioned separately and they all told the same story
  4. I never have heard or read anything that claims she was told to shut up by the church…I just read another article about her from the catholic herald…nothing was even mentioned about either claim that you have made
  5. You will never have any trouble finding someone to brand the church and catholics as liars, and be willing to say hate filled accounts as to how they know this
  1. But red, you are being less than straightforward here. You are strident in your personal interpretation of the Fatima issue, attacking those with whom you disagree, namely myself, yet when you are challenged, you plead complete or partial ignorance.
It is true that she left her first convent to go to a second, stricter one. You do not mention, however, that she later left the second to go to a third, less strict one.
  1. She wrote several books until forbidden to do so. The ban was later lifted, not for her specifically, but as part of a general relaxation of Church regulations concerning the literary output of religious. She then resumed writing.
  2. There isn’t any question that the entire Fatima phenom had strong political undertones, and Lucia, then only nine years old but nonetheless very bright, was almost certainly aware of this. Still, anyone making such claims could have expected to be ridiculed, then as now.
  3. Which ‘either’ are you referring to?
  4. There is no hate involved at all, merely an appeal to reason.
P.S. I neglected to respond to two points from your previous post:
A. I read on EWTN website the account of Fatima that the church agrees is true…
B. Two of those children died just as Lucia said they would, how did she manage that?]
A. I challenge that. Please provide a link or links (1) giving ‘EWTN’s account of Fatima’ and (2) that the Church agrees that EWTN’s account is TRUE.

B. She was able to ‘manage that’ because they died in 1919 and she made no such claim until 1941.
 
I doubt that anything I could post would convince of otherwise…here are the links

I don’t know how I attacked you personally. It was not my intent , if you felt attacked I apologize…It is obvious we will never see eye to eye on this so I bid you goodbye

Here is the church link from the Vatican

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

EWTN Fatima

ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/fatima.htm

Fatima

ewtn.com/Fatima/
Thank you. I see nothing in any of the three links that supports your claim that the Catholic Church agrees that the account of the Fatima story given on the EWTN website is true; in fact, the website, at first glance, appears to contain several factual errors.

In any case, the last section of your second link, titled ‘Theological Commentary’ and subtitled ‘Public Revelation and private revelations - their Theological status’ states only what has been stated over and over before - that the Church sorts out those private revelations which are in accord with public revelation (scripture and tradition) from those which are not. It has determined that the Fatima revelations meet this criterion and are therefore ‘worthy of belief’.

That is in no sense a declaration that the events truly happened as described - not even close.
 
Thank you. I see nothing in any of the three links that supports your claim that the Catholic Church agrees that the account of the Fatima story given on the EWTN website is true; in fact, the website contains several serious factual errors.

In any case, the last section of your second link, titled ‘Theological Commentary’ and subtitled ‘Public Revelation and private revelations - their Theological status’ states only what has been stated over and over before - that the Church sorts out those private revelations which are in accord with public revelation (scripture and tradition) from those which are not. It has determined that the Fatima revelations meet this criterion and are therefore ‘worthy of belief’.

That is in no sense a declaration that the events truly happened as described - not even close.
Did you read the first link, beeliner?

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

It goes into great detail about Fatima.
 
I will do my best, time permitting. 🙂
Good Morning Jo!

There is on this board a thread titled ‘Prophecy of St Malachy’ in which, several weeks ago, I made the following observation:
When a list of ‘prophecies’ purports to have been written in the 12th century, and all of the predictions are dead-on accurate up to the 16th century, after which they are spotty to say the least, it doesn’t take a particle physicist to figure out that the list was written in the 16th century.
Simply by changing the dates, a logical, reasonable, SENSIBLE explanation of the Fatima ‘prophecies’ emerges.

The alleged apparitions occurred in 1917.

The ‘prophecies’ were revealed in 1941.

Those ‘prophecies’ which concerned events between 1907 and 1941 were specific and accurate except for the naming of Pius XII as Pius XI.

The ‘prophecies’ concerning events after 1941 were general, imprecise, and no more accurate than might be expected by chance. The remarks concerning the future of Russia were not even close. If the Lady had said, ‘Russia will continue in her errors until a visionary leader returns her back to Christ and to democracy, and this man may be identified by a prominent facial birthmark’, then I would give the ‘predictions’ some credence.

I understand that JPII was impressed by the fact that the attempted assassination took place in St. Peter’s Square, beneath which are buried the remains of martyrs of religious persecution such as described in the ‘prophecy’, but in all candor, Jo, read it yourself and you will see that it makes no reference whatever to the conditions under which the assassination attempt occurred.

Here the reasonable person needs to apply the principle of Occam’s razor. Which is more likely, that this devout young girl was visited throughout her life by a steady procession of angels and saints, including not only His beloved mother but Jesus Christ Himself, or that she had an overactive childish imagination which, over the years, developed into a case of outright fraud or, at best, delusion?

Finally, Jo, let me make the same observation and pose the same question that I directed to red earlier in the thread, and for which he had no answer:
I continue to believe that the most significant factor against the apparitions is Lucia’s claim that the Lady directed her to give a message to the pope, which I documented for you as you requested.
She later claimed that Christ Himself had directed her similarly.
By what logic do you suggest that Christ and His Mother did not reveal themselves to the pope directly? Why would, or should, his holiness be more inclined to believe a young girl prone to hallucinations?
What say you?
 
…Did Lucia arrage for JP II to be shot on Our Ladies Feast Day?
I now believe Sister Lucia as a wayward child planned it all, and Jacinta and Francisco were in on it.

The Apparitions on the 13th, JP2 being shot on the 13th.

THEN ! she had the audacity to pass away on the 13th, some party trick I’d say. 😉
 
Loose ends:
40.png
beeliner:
Those ‘prophecies’ which concerned events between 1907 and 1941 were specific…
My typo. It should read ‘…between 1917 and 1941…’.
40.png
redrosetea:
People have spread lies about Padre Pio and every saintly person that has ever lived…
All kinds of people spread all kinds of lies about all kinds of other people all the time! Why single out the saintly?

The brand new issue (Sep-Oct) of Skeptical Inquirer has a short but very interesting article on Padre Pio, skeptical of course, but interesting nonetheless.
40.png
hawkeye:
THEN ! she had the audacity to pass away on the 13th, some party trick I’d say.
LOL! The apparitions took place on the 13th of May through October, she died on the 13th of February, it’s gotta be a miracle!

My mom and dad were married on October 21, I was born the following year on November 21.

I was a big Buddy Holly fan. My son was born on his birthday, September 7th.

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe all died on the 4th of July.

Miracles abound!
 
Good Morning Jo!
Good evening. 🙂 So sorry for returning late; I had a full day of work and then attended the Vigil Mass for the Feast of the Assumption.
Here the reasonable person needs to apply the principle of Occam’s razor. Which is more likely, that this devout young girl was visited throughout her life by a steady procession of angels and saints, including not only His beloved mother but Jesus Christ Himself, or that she had an overactive childish imagination which, over the years, developed into a case of outright fraud or, at best, delusion?
I think that the former is more likely, personally, given the record of Sister Lucia’s holiness and devotion throughout her life. If she was really crazy, delusional, mentally ill, etc., I doubt she could have kept up the charade as long as she did. Nor would I believe that a child who made everything up could keep her story consistent and steadfast throughout her long life.
Finally, Jo, let me make the same observation and pose the same question that I directed to red earlier in the thread, and for which he had no answer:What say you?
I say that there are several reasons.
  1. God used the apparitions to give hope to Lucia and the people around her.
  2. God used the apparitions to help Lucia and the people around her grow in holiness.
  3. God used the apparitions to help the Pope grow in humility, by appearing to a poor peasant girl instead of him.
Et cetera.
 
  1. Good evening. 🙂 So sorry for returning late; I had a full day of work and then attended the Vigil Mass for the Feast of the Assumption.
  2. I think that the former is more likely, personally, given the record of Sister Lucia’s holiness and devotion throughout her life. If she was really crazy, delusional, mentally ill, etc., I doubt she could have kept up the charade as long as she did. Nor would I believe that a child who made everything up could keep her story consistent and steadfast throughout her long life.
  3. I say that there are several reasons.
  1. God used the apparitions to give hope to Lucia and the people around her.
  2. God used the apparitions to help Lucia and the people around her grow in holiness.
  3. God used the apparitions to help the Pope grow in humility, by appearing to a poor peasant girl instead of him.
Et cetera.
  1. Ah, yes, a full day of work. I remember those days well.
  2. No one is questioning her holiness and devotion. I’m sure you would acknowledge, though, that there are many others, especially members of contemplative religious orders, who are equally devout and have never been visited by a single saint or deity.
  3. Thanks for posting your thoughts - I’m sure they’re shared by many.
 
  1. Ah, yes, a full day of work. I remember those days well.
What was your occupation? I’m a graphic specialist for a BPO (business process outsourcing) company.
  1. No one is questioning her holiness and devotion. I’m sure you would acknowledge, though, that there are many others, especially members of contemplative religious orders, who are equally devout and have never been visited by a single saint or deity.
God sometimes singles out certain people for special visions. Why He does this, no one knows. I guess you’ll have to ask Him yourself someday. 🙂 It’s not a reflection on anyone’s holiness, however; God gives different gifts to different people in a way that makes the most sense for His purposes.

At any rate, since you made no denial, I assume that you agree with me that Sister Lucia’s visions are plausible.
  1. Thanks for posting your thoughts - I’m sure they’re shared by many.
Glad to be of service. 😃 Once again, since you made no denial, I assume that you agree with me.
 
  1. What was your occupation? I’m a graphic specialist for a BPO (business process outsourcing) company.
  2. God sometimes singles out certain people for special visions.
  3. At any rate, since you made no denial, I assume that you agree with me that Sister Lucia’s visions are plausible.
  1. Radio and electronics. Several years before I reached retirement age, I decided to move to Germany and spend my last few working years teaching English there, a decision I have never regretted. I’m currently on a one year sabbatical in the US, but expect to return to Germany next month, do a little more teaching, then wrap up my affairs there and return to the good old USA and permanent retirement early next year. By that time I will be 68.
  2. And sometimes they single themselves out.
  3. I agree with you that they are possible. I have given my reasons why they seem to me IMplausible, but I certainly respect your right to disagree.
 
Satan does not want the people to pray. But Mother Mary wants us all to pray!
 
I have been a Catholic for 4 years and I still have struggles when it comes to Marian devotions and Mary sightings around the world. My question is this, is it possible that all this could be Satan influenceing the church.(2 Cor.11:13-15)?:confused:

If yes, please explain.

if no, please explain.
Satan does not want the people to pray. But Mother Mary wants us all to pray!
 
  1. Radio and electronics. Several years before I reached retirement age, I decided to move to Germany and spend my last few working years teaching English there, a decision I have never regretted. I’m currently on a one year sabbatical in the US, but expect to return to Germany next month, do a little more teaching, then wrap up my affairs there and return to the good old USA and permanent retirement early next year. By that time I will be 68.
Wow, that sounds fascinating! I’ve always wanted to visit Germany. Is the beer there as good as I’ve heard? 😃
  1. And sometimes they single themselves out.
And usually they’re found out before too long… the meglomaniacal and/or the mentally unstable usually don’t have the wherewithal to perpetrate a hoax, intentionally or otherwise, for an extended period of time.
  1. I agree with you that they are possible. I have given my reasons why they seem to me IMplausible, but I certainly respect your right to disagree.
As I respect yours. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top