A question for Muslims concerning the Injil (Gospels)?

[cheese_puff]

I think what would make the difference in approaching Christianity vs Islam is understanding these things: In Christianity, God’s “final and full revelation” to man is NOT a book, no matter how special. It’s not even the four Gospels or the entire New Testament or the entire canon of scripture- It’s a person! That’s why we believe in “God became flesh”. It means God stopped sending messages, written or oral, through prophets- Rather, He showed himself to us, once and for all, in a way that was compatible with our own nature/limitations. So that seeing him, hearing him, watching him, we could understand these things.

1. Who God is through our own perspective that is, our nature/our humanity.
2. Exactly what God’s will for man is- That is, What it means/looks like for man to be one with God’s will.

It’s like this, if you’re a missionary/explorer to a newly discovered island and you want to teach them valuable things, like math etc How are you going to do it? You know they cannot get what you’re trying to tell them, so if you start with your symbols they may just give you a shocked, blank look. So you learn their language first and translate your math/religion to theirs so they can grasp it. Christianity believes this: God wanted to reveal himself to us, so we could know him intimately- It’s impossible for man to know an infinite being, so God took on human flesh to “reveal” himself to us in our own “language”, our own understanding.

So for us, the incorruptibility of the Christian “revelation” means the incorruptibility of Jesus Christ, not the bible!

Amen!

 

[Kouyate42]

Aren’t you using an Islamic frame of mind to judge Christianity? The concept of Christianity as a religion “of the book” appeared for the first time in Christianity only 500 years ago, when the protestant groups were born. It’s utterly foreign to historical Christianity. All the ancient Churches Catholic, E.Orthodox, Orientals, none of them have any such belief and to us (Catholics) it is a grave error that was made up in order to free oneself from the Church’s authority. So what exactly do you want to know? In Historic Christianity, we accept the scriptures as scripture because the Church declared them so.

I’m not a Muslim, I’m actually a (lapsed) Baptist.

***In Christian apologetics, the NT is first seen only as a historical record like any other ancient document and nothing more. Proofs & Corroboration for the events recorded there are then argued,and having then established the facts of Christs claims and proofs that they were true is the Christian religion considered “proven”.

For Catholics, (I suspect also Orthodox) the beliefs of the early Church and New Testament are further given to show that Christ gave his authority to the Church and promised protection over it, so that centuries later when the Church declares certain books scripture,it’s accepted on the basis of the Church’s authority, based on Christ’s promise, based on Christ being all he claimed, which at this point (see *** above) has been shown to be true.

I know it’s confusing. But asking us to prove the “incorruptibility” of the Gospels/New Testament involves many assumptions that are not true because our faith does not rest on the incorruptibility of the NT- The NT’s incorruptibility rests on the Christian faith. I hope I haven’t confused you too much.

It’s OK, I understand.

I think what would make the difference in approaching Christianity vs Islam is understanding these things: In Christianity, God’s “final and full revelation” to man is NOT a book, no matter how special. It’s not even the four Gospels or the entire New Testament or the entire canon of scripture- It’s a person! That’s why we believe in “God became flesh”. It means God stopped sending messages, written or oral, through prophets- Rather, He showed himself to us, once and for all, in a way that was compatible with our own nature/limitations. So that seeing him, hearing him, watching him, we could understand these things.

1. Who God is through our own perspective that is, our nature/our humanity.
2. Exactly what God’s will for man is- That is, What it means/looks like for man to be one with God’s will.

The Qur’an teaches that to look upon the face of the divine, including angels or any other divine being, means instant death, as humans cannot look upon the divine directly (which is why the Yehudi (Jews) were refused a glimpse of Allah (yes, I’m a Christian, but I call God Allah).
And even where what you say is true, there is a problem in that that particular angel or divine being in human form, being precisely that, a human, could easily be rejected by the unbelieving as being merely that- a mere human being. And being in human form limits their divine power- even 'Isa (Jesus) felt pain, emotion and even death like any other human being.

Here’s the Qur’an verse: Allah says in another verse, ‘And they say, ‘Why has not an angel been sent down to him?’ Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them. And had We appointed him an angel, We indeed would have made him a man, and We would have certainly caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion (i.e. the Message of Prophet Muhammad - sallallahu alahi wa-sallam).’ [Soorah al-An’am (6): 8-9] ‘meaning, if We had sent an angel along with the human Messenger, or if We had sent an angel as a Messenger to mankind, he would be in the shape of a man so that they would be able to speak to him and benefit from his teachings. In this case, the angel (in the shape of a human) will also cause confusion for them, just as the confusion they caused themselves over accepting humans as Messengers!..’ [See, Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

It’s like this, if you’re a missionary/explorer to a newly discovered island and you want to teach them valuable things, like math etc How are you going to do it? You know they cannot get what you’re trying to tell them, so if you start with your symbols they may just give you a shocked, blank look. So you learn their language first and translate your math/religion to theirs so they can grasp it. Christianity believes this: God wanted to reveal himself to us, so we could know him intimately- It’s impossible for man to know an infinite being, so God took on human flesh to “reveal” himself to us in our own “language”, our own understanding.

So for us, the incorruptibility of the Christian “revelation” means the incorruptibility of Jesus Christ, not the bible!

Major problem is that in translation, some of the sense of the original is always going to be lost. Languages have within them their own senses, nuances and meanings which simply can’t be translated into the other language.

Which proves the Qur’anic point: a divine being made human loses some of his divinity in appealing to our grosser senses.

 

[Marybeloved]

I’m not a Muslim, I’m actually a (lapsed) Baptist.

Ok, didn’t know. But it does make sense that you would see things like that because when it comes to religions “of the book” the Muslims are closer to Protestant beliefs about the Bible.

It’s OK, I understand.

The Qur’an teaches that to look upon the face of the divine, including angels or any other divine being, means instant death, as humans cannot look upon the divine directly (which is why the Yehudi (Jews) were refused a glimpse of Allah

I honestly cannot begin to respond to this, I’ve typed so much today, my arms feel like logs of wood.

(yes, I’m a Christian, but I call God Allah).

No Problem.

And even where what you say is true, there is a problem in that that particular angel or divine being in human form, being precisely that, a human, could easily be rejected by the unbelieving as being merely that- a mere human being.

And a divine book couldn’t be rejected?

And being in human form limits their divine power- even 'Isa (Jesus) felt pain, emotion and even death like any other human being.

Very true, you see he actually became human, wasn’t just pretending to be one.
“Like us in all things but sin” (Can’t remember the exact part of the Bible). Jesus was a single Divine person who possessed two natures (one divine, one human with all its limitations) I’ve attempted to explain it in these posts:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8395940#post8395940
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8396022#post8396022

Here’s the Qur’an verse: Allah says in another verse, ‘And they say, ‘Why has not an angel been sent down to him?’ Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them. And had We appointed him an angel, We indeed would have made him a man, and We would have certainly caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion (i.e. the Message of Prophet Muhammad - sallallahu alahi wa-sallam).’ [Soorah al-An’am (6): 8-9] ‘meaning, if We had sent an angel along with the human Messenger, or if We had sent an angel as a Messenger to mankind, he would be in the shape of a man so that they would be able to speak to him and benefit from his teachings. In this case, the angel (in the shape of a human) will also cause confusion for them, just as the confusion they caused themselves over accepting humans as Messengers!..’ [See, Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Alright…

Major problem is that in translation, some of the sense of the original is always going to be lost. Languages have within them their own senses, nuances and meanings which simply can’t be translated into the other language.

Do not Muslims hold that the Qur’an is the verbatim speech of the Almighty God himself, his very eternal word?

So let me ask- Is God an Arab? For that matter, is he a human being? I imagine that Muslims know that God is pure spirit, one, invisible, infinite- He does not need/have a mouth or voice-box- or voice, for that matter…right? So God does not communicate in human language, right? God can communicate ideas/knowledge/ truth directly to your mind or spirit without any use of Human language- Neither do the angels use Human language, they are also spiritual creatures. And yet, God’s verbatim speech is in human language, and not even a miraculous language that everyone would be able to understand without translation but a particular one, Arabic.

Now, surely God’s verbatim speech and eternal word could not possibly be contained in any language at all! So doesn’t the Arabic Qur’an contain the same dangers that you’re talking about? Hasn’t divine speech been translated to human language- Hasn’t “the original” been lost, according to this thinking? If Muslims say that no translation has taken place, then we’d have to conclude that the Muslim God is actually an Arab.

Which proves the Qur’anic point: a divine being made human loses some of his divinity in appealing to our grosser senses.

And Divine Speech made Human loses some of its divinity in appealing to our grosser senses.

 

[Kouyate42]

Ok, didn’t know. But it does make sense that you would see things like that because when it comes to religions “of the book” the Muslims are closer to Protestant beliefs about the Bible.

And a divine book couldn’t be rejected?

The Qur’an has within it several tests of its divine nature, including the following:

• Produce a surah like any surah found in the Qur’an.
• Find any inconsistencies within it which cannot be resolved using Sunnah or knowledge of the Arabic language.
• Prove that, if you truly believe that a tradition or ritual is God-given, that He commanded you to do so.

There are others but I’m not in possession of a Qur’an to find them.

Very true, you see he actually became human, wasn’t just pretending to be one.
“Like us in all things but sin” (Can’t remember the exact part of the Bible). Jesus was a single Divine person who possessed two natures (one divine, one human with all its limitations) I’ve attempted to explain it in these posts:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8395940#post8395940
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8396022#post8396022

Alright…

OK!

Do not Muslims hold that the Qur’an is the verbatim speech of the Almighty God himself, his very eternal word?

So let me ask- Is God an Arab? For that matter, is he a human being? I imagine that Muslims know that God is pure spirit, one, invisible, infinite- He does not need/have a mouth or voice-box- or voice, for that matter…right? So God does not communicate in human language, right? God can communicate ideas/knowledge/ truth directly to your mind or spirit without any use of Human language- Neither do the angels use Human language, they are also spiritual creatures. And yet, God’s verbatim speech is in human language, and not even a miraculous language that everyone would be able to understand without translation but a particular one, Arabic.

The Islamic belief is that the ORIGINAL religion in the world was Islam, and that all the practices and beliefs of the Islamic religion are nothing alien or new to the world but a return to our natural state of religion and of self.

Now, surely God’s verbatim speech and eternal word could not possibly be contained in any language at all! So doesn’t the Arabic Qur’an contain the same dangers that you’re talking about? Hasn’t divine speech been translated to human language- Hasn’t “the original” been lost, according to this thinking? If Muslims say that no translation has taken place, then we’d have to conclude that the Muslim God is actually an Arab.
And Divine Speech made Human loses some of its divinity in appealing to our grosser senses.

Arabic was chosen by Allah for a specific reason. On a more basic linguistic level, the pre-Islamic history of the language enabled it to develop word forms, means of expression and workings which put it far above any other language of the time. Arabs at the time and even now took great pride in high poetic forms, accurate and clear speech and being articulate.

And so when the Qur’an was chosen to be revealed in Arabic it was because of this high eloquence and high prose style, because for a divine message only the highest of linguistic forms can suffice. There are loads of books and studies dedicated to studying the Qur’an purely on its word choice and prose formation.

In short: Allah chose Arabic because it was the closest thing to the divine language of Allah as humans can understand.

Here’s an essay which is better written than anything I can do: al-islam.org/al-serat/arabic.htm

Damn, I wish English was my first language…

 

[jakasaki]

I’m not a Muslim, I’m actually a (lapsed) Baptist.

** The Qur’an teaches that to look upon the face of the divine, including angels** or any other divine being, means instant death

Hi there ~

Please cite your source for the post above in black bold.

As far as I know - according to Islam, angles are not divine.

Thanks

 

[Marybeloved]

The Qur’an has within it several tests of its divine nature, including the following:

• Produce a surah like any surah found in the Qur’an.
• Find any inconsistencies within it which cannot be resolved using Sunnah or knowledge of the Arabic language.
• Prove that, if you truly believe that a tradition or ritual is God-given, that He commanded you to do so.

There are others but I’m not in possession of a Qur’an to find them.

OK, but don’t you see the parallels? Christianity proves the person of Jesus was no mere human (you could say it challenges the world to find an explanation for his life, or point to a one like him)- It’s apologetic proofs have remained largely unrefuted even in today’s modernist assault on Christian faith, history and origins- Here’s a link to some apologetic work I found today. catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/resurex.htm

The Islamic belief is that the ORIGINAL religion in the world was Islam, and that all the practices and beliefs of the Islamic religion are nothing alien or new to the world but a return to our natural state of religion and of self.

OK

Arabic was chosen by Allah for a specific reason. On a more basic linguistic level, the pre-Islamic history of the language enabled it to develop word forms, means of expression and workings which put it far above any other language of the time. Arabs at the time and even now took great pride in high poetic forms, accurate and clear speech and being articulate.

And so when the Qur’an was chosen to be revealed in Arabic it was because of this high eloquence and high prose style, because for a divine message only the highest of linguistic forms can suffice. There are loads of books and studies dedicated to studying the Qur’an purely on its word choice and prose formation.

In short: Allah chose Arabic because it was the closest thing to the divine language of Allah as humans can understand.

Here’s an essay which is better written than anything I can do: al-islam.org/al-serat/arabic.htm

OK- But Christians would say that Mary was chosen and prepared to be the perfect woman from whom God took flesh which was the most perfect a human could be. That is, Jesus’ humanity was the most perfect/closest to God that a human could be.

Still, even if Arabic was chosen, even if it was very beautiful, it was still a human language- and if God is God, no human language can contain his word- So you still have the dilemma that you posed to me earlier- How can the Divine be transmitted to the human w/out losing it’s fullness?

Damn, I wish English was my first language…

I think you’re doing quite ok

 

[rain_bow]

Im assuming muslims will answer by saying, whatever doesn’t contridict the Quran is not corrupted.

You are right. And this is the main problem of almost all Muslims. However if you will not accept their answer, then they will just ignore you in future.

 

[rain_bow]

I answered a similar question which was asked in another thread a few months ago.

Anyhow, here is the reason why Muslims believe in the truth of the Furqan i.e. the noble Qur’an.

The Qur’an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Is it difficult to identify a play by Shakespeare… or a musical composition by Mozart… or a painting by Picasso?

I do not think that it would be very difficult for a connoisseur of the arts to do this because every one of these great master craftsmen of their respective trades would leave a distinctive mark in all of their masterpieces which would be identifiable as coming only from them and no one else.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is one such ‘Masterpiece’ and there is indeed a way to test and ascertain whether or not it does come from the greatest ‘Master’ there is.

The following are all the relevant posts from the thread for anyone wishing to determine for themselves the truth of the Qur’an and henceforth verifying the proof of the divine Prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh):

1, 13, 34, 65, 126, 131, [136](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php? p=2105491&postcount=136), 144, 147, 162, 191, 238, 253, 258, 260, 263, 278, 301, 302, 319, 323, 336, 351, 352, 356, 361, 369

And from other threads: 1, 2, 3

Well you want peoples to check your link? 1st one is surah Nisa. perfect example. Do you know that this Surah contains the worst errors? mathematical errors of inheritance law? How would you explain it to me?or will you ignore the fact like other Muslims?And do you know that Koran is full of Grammatical errors? Ok tell me 1st,what do you believe?

Is Koran the direct word of Allah or indirect words that sent to Muhammad via Jibreel?( that Jibreel said to Mohammed by changing Allah’s direct words?

answer this red colored texts specially,then let me post something.And then let me see how you will reply later.

 

[jakasaki]

Well you want peoples to check your link? 1st one is surah Nisa. perfect example. Do you know that this Surah contains the worst errors? mathematical errors of inheritance law? How would you explain it to me?or will you ignore the fact like other Muslims?And do you know that Koran is full of Grammatical errors? Ok tell me 1st,what do you believe?

Is Koran the direct word of Allah or indirect words that sent to Muhammad via Jibreel?( that Jibreel said to Mohammed by changing Allah’s direct words?

answer this red colored texts specially,then let me post something.And then let me see how you will reply later.

The “spirit” that visited Mohamad in the cave did not identify “itself”.

Mohamad did not know who or what it was.

Mohamads wife Khadijah took Mohamad to see her uncle Waraqah and to explain to the uncle what happened to mohamad in the cave

It was her uncle Waraqah who told Mohamad it was Gabriel.

 

[Kouyate42]

OK, but don’t you see the parallels? Christianity proves the person of Jesus was no mere human (you could say it challenges the world to find an explanation for his life, or point to a one like him)- It’s apologetic proofs have remained largely unrefuted even in today’s modernist assault on Christian faith, history and origins- Here’s a link to some apologetic work I found today. catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/resurex.htm

Will give that a read when I can and respond.

OK- But Christians would say that Mary was chosen and prepared to be the perfect woman from whom God took flesh which was the most perfect a human could be. That is, Jesus’ humanity was the most perfect/closest to God that a human could be.

Maryaam was specially honored by Allah in the Qur’an in that even before her birth, her mother (although wanting a male child to dedicate as a temple priest) was given something much better- a chosen sinless child who would herself give birth to a child who would free his people from ritual and man-made law and lead people to God. This was 'Isa (Jesus).

But the major pivot is that whilst the Qur’an takes Jesus as a mortal, human prophet (and not the Son of God), the Bible does. This is what your entire question rests on- whether Jesus was divine or not.

Still, even if Arabic was chosen, even if it was very beautiful, it was still a human language- and if God is God, no human language can contain his word- So you still have the dilemma that you posed to me earlier- How can the Divine be transmitted to the human w/out losing it’s fullness?

When Moses spoke with God and then gave His commandments to the people, He gave them in Hebrew (probably).
When Jesus talked with his disciples, he spoke in Aramaic or Greek (the jury’s out on this one), both of which were common languages of the people in Judea and Jerusalem.
When Muhammad was chosen as Rasuul (Messenger), he spoke in Arabic that he might be a messenger for those chosen peoples at the time, the Arabs, and then to the outside world, as it is the duty of all Muslims whether you be born in an Arabic country or not, to learn Arabic.

Each one was chosen and the exact message which he was given was so carefully transmitted and protected by Allah that it remained pure in the human tongue.

I think you’re doing quite ok

There are times when I really struggle.

 

[rain_bow]

The “spirit” that visited Mohamad in the cave did not identify “itself”.

Mohamad did not know who or what it was.

Mohamads wife Khadijah took Mohamad to see her uncle Waraqah and to explain to the uncle what happened to mohamad in the cave

It was her uncle Waraqah who told Mohamad it was Gabriel.

Yes right, and maybe before Waraqa, a Christian Priest named Bahira or something, I can not remember exactly , told Mohammad’s uncle that he is the promised messiah or the Paraclete that Jesus promised to send? Well Why did Bahira say so while he was a Christian priest? It confuses me always. Can you provide some information about it?

 

[jakasaki]

Yes right, and maybe before Waraqa, a Christian Priest named Bahira or something, I can not remember exactly , told Mohammad’s uncle that he is the promised messiah or the Paraclete that Jesus promised to send? Well Why did Bahira say so while he was a Christian priest? It confuses me always. Can you provide some information about it?

Bahira is a Nestorian monk that Mohamad was supposed to have met during a trip returning from Syria to Mecca.

His Christian name was supposed to be Sergius or Georgius.

The Muslim traditions say that Bahira recognized, through various signs, that Muhammad is a prophet.

There are suggestions that Bahira stayed with Muhammad and taught him as alluded to in Surah xvi.105.

“Husain the commentator says on this passage that the Prophet was in the habit of going every evening to a Christian to hear the Taurat and Injil.”

(Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p. 30, quoting Tafsir-i-Husaini, Sale p. 223 and Muir’s Life of Mahomet, p. 72)

There is also another great book written in the late 1800’s

THE BIBLE, THE KORAN, AND THE TALMUD OR BIBLICAL LEGENDS OF THE MUSSULMANS.

COMPILED FROM ARABIC SOURCES, AND COMPARED WITH JEWISH TRADITIONS.

BY DR. G. WEIL,

LIBRARIAN OF THE UNIVERSITY OF HEIDELBERG,
FELLOW OF THE ASIATIC SOCIETY OF PARIS, &c., &c., &c.

TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN, WITH OCCASIONAL NOTES.

[NEW YORK, 1863]

Check it out at our local library or find it on the internet - perhaps at Amazon… dot… com…

 

[rain_bow]

Bahira is a Nestorian monk that Mohamad was supposed to have met during a trip returning from Syria to Mecca.

His Christian name was supposed to be Sergius or Georgius.

The Muslim traditions say that Bahira recognized, through various signs, that Muhammad is a prophet.

There are suggestions that Bahira stayed with Muhammad and taught him as alluded to in Surah xvi.105.

**“Husain the commentator says on this passage that the Prophet was in the habit of going every evening to a Christian to hear the Taurat and Injil.” **

(Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p. 30, quoting Tafsir-i-Husaini, Sale p. 223 and Muir’s Life of Mahomet, p. 72)

There is also another great book written in the late 1800’s

THE BIBLE, THE KORAN, AND THE TALMUD OR BIBLICAL LEGENDS OF THE MUSSULMANS.

COMPILED FROM ARABIC SOURCES, AND COMPARED WITH JEWISH TRADITIONS.

BY DR. G. WEIL,

LIBRARIAN OF THE UNIVERSITY OF HEIDELBERG,
FELLOW OF THE ASIATIC SOCIETY OF PARIS, &c., &c., &c.

TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN, WITH OCCASIONAL NOTES.

[NEW YORK, 1863]

Check it out at our local library or find it on the internet - perhaps at Amazon… dot… com…

OK I will try finding it. And yes the red texts show that it was easy for Muhammad to copy the Bible, since his habit was to hear Bible every evening!!

 

[Marybeloved]

Yes right, and maybe before Waraqa, a Christian Priest named Bahira or something, I can not remember exactly , told Mohammad’s uncle that he is the promised messiah or the Paraclete that Jesus promised to send? Well Why did Bahira say so while he was a Christian priest? It confuses me always. Can you provide some information about it?

If this is in fact true, if Muhammad did find some one who told him this then it’s very simple. Bahira was a heretic! I’ve read numerous times that the Christians in Arabia at that time were heretics whose heresy had been wiped out of the entire roman empire except in Arabia which somehow on the outskirts. I also read that the stories of Jesus and Mary in the Qur’an resemble those in the apocryphal(non-canonical) christian books, and even the later claimed miracles of Muhammad resemble miracles found in those books and may have been “brought” to Islam by the Nestorians who no doubt had converted, forcefully or not, to Islam.

 

[Marybeloved]

Will give that a read when I can and respond.

Maryaam was specially honored by Allah in the Qur’an in that even before her birth, her mother (although wanting a male child to dedicate as a temple priest) was given something much better- a chosen sinless child who would herself give birth to a child who would free his people from ritual and man-made law and lead people to God. This was 'Isa (Jesus).

But the major pivot is that whilst the Qur’an takes Jesus as a mortal, human prophet (and not the Son of God), the Bible does. This is what your entire question rests on- whether Jesus was divine or not.

When Moses spoke with God and then gave His commandments to the people, He gave them in Hebrew (probably).
When Jesus talked with his disciples, he spoke in Aramaic or Greek (the jury’s out on this one), both of which were common languages of the people in Judea and Jerusalem.
When Muhammad was chosen as Rasuul (Messenger), he spoke in Arabic that he might be a messenger for those chosen peoples at the time, the Arabs, and then to the outside world, as it is the duty of all Muslims whether you be born in an Arabic country or not, to learn Arabic.

Each one was chosen and the exact message which he was given was so carefully transmitted and protected by Allah that it remained pure in the human tongue.

Kouyate, I’m honestly getting confused by our discussion here.
You see, you asked Christians to prove the incorruptibility of The Bible vs Qur’an, I explained why that was a false “ruler” by which to measure the two, since for Christians Jesus, not the New testament was the final & full revelation.

You then told me that according to Qur’an (and your own thinking) that for a divine person to become human, some of the divinity will have to be lost (which is not true) since the human is just so inferior/so small (very true).

I replied by drawing parallels with the Muslim belief that the Quran is Divine speech, eternal word, and asked how Muslims, who according to you deny the incarnation because “the divine cannot become human”, explain how the speech of an infinite being can be translated to a human tongue.

You said that the Qur’an has tests that are supposed to prove its claims, I said there are similar tests (or proofs) to prove Christs claims. You said that Arabic was chosen because it was beautiful/superior among human tongues, I said Mary was chosen and prepared to be worthy of the source of Christ’s flesh.

Then you give me so many writings in the Qur’an which just show a different version from christian beliefs (and everyone knows they do). I’m not following your line of thinking.

About Hebrew and Moses, it’s true God spoke to Moses in that language, but what does that show? Remember, it was you (and the Quran) not me, who made the claim that the Divine cannot become human w/out losing it’s divinity. I have made the opposite case, the Divine to be able to commune with the human, must find away to come down to the human, because the human cannot reach the divine heights. It’s God who comes down to our level, in order to bring us to his level, because we can never scale those heights- we are human! The Almighty here, meets Moses at Moses’ own level, in a language Moses understands, in a manner that Moses will both understand it is divine w/out totally freaking him out. always meet you at your own leve, give you proofs that you find acceptable, tests that you can overcome- That’s the Christian God. This is precisely the Christian claim- God came to us in our own nature, showed himself divine (miracles & Resurrection) and as the perfect human (sinless but human) so that we could believe in him and share in the life he wanted to give us. I was showing that your protests were not founded, even in the Qur’an and its claims to being the speech of God.

 

[Marybeloved]

The “spirit” that visited Mohamad in the cave did not identify “itself”.

Mohamad did not know who or what it was.

Mohamads wife Khadijah took Mohamad to see her uncle Waraqah and to explain to the uncle what happened to mohamad in the cave

It was her uncle Waraqah who told Mohamad it was Gabriel.

This is freaky- Mohammed may actually have been visited by a demon!!! I’ve always known that Christians say this in polemics, because of course an angel of God could not have denied Christ’s divinity etc But I assumed the unspoken default position is that Mohammed lied. Do you suppose he may actually have been visited, except by a very different kind of spirit?

 

[jakasaki]

~ bump ~

originally posted by kouyate42

i’m not a muslim, i’m actually a (lapsed) baptist.
**
the qur’an teaches that to look upon the face of the divine, including angels** or any other divine being, means instant death

hi there ~

**please cite your source for the post above in black bold.
**
as far as i know - according to islam, angles are not divine.

Thanks

 

[jakasaki]

This is freaky- Mohammed may actually have been visited by a demon!!! I’ve always known that Christians say this in polemics, because of course an angel of God could not have denied Christ’s divinity etc But I assumed the unspoken default position is that Mohammed lied. Do you suppose he may actually have been visited, except by a very different kind of spirit?

The fact of the matter is that the “spirit” that was with Mohamad in the cave **never **identified itself.

This “spiriti” squeezed and squeezed Mohamad until he could not take it anymore.

And yes, it was Mohamads wife’s uncle who told Mohamad that this “spirit” was Gabriel.

These are the facts - I don’t for one moment believe it was Gabriel, but it’s irrelevant as to what I believe.

 

[Kouyate42]

~ bump ~

I apologise, English isn’t my first language, that wasn’t the word I was looking for. I was thinking more that they existed before humans, were created by God from fire and can only do as Allah states.

 

[jakasaki]

I apologise, English isn’t my first language, that wasn’t the word I was looking for. I was thinking more that they existed before humans, were created by God from fire and can only do as Allah states.

I believe you are confused:

Allah’s **angels are created from light **& existed before humans.

Jinns are created from smokeless fire.