A question for Muslims concerning the Injil (Gospels)?

[Marybeloved]

I apologise, English isn’t my first language, that wasn’t the word I was looking for. I was thinking more that they existed before humans, were created by God from fire and can only do as Allah states.

Kouyate…Hi!!!

Can’t believe this is the third time I’m trying to post this comment!!! Anyway, I saw that you changed your Religion Status from “Wanting to be Orthodox…” to “Classical Deist”. I really hope that does not mean you’ve turned away completely from the true faith. That would make me really sad:crying: I’m praying for you, brother.

Peace!

 

[rain_bow]

Kouyate…Hi!!!

Can’t believe this is the third time I’m trying to post this comment!!! Anyway, I saw that you changed your Religion Status from “Wanting to be Orthodox…” to “Classical Deist”. I really hope that does not mean you’ve turned away completely from the true faith. That would make me really sad:crying: I’m praying for you, brother.

Peace!

Hmmm He is confused enough I guess!

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I answered a similar question which was asked in another thread a few months ago.

Anyhow, here is the reason why Muslims believe in the truth of the Furqan i.e. the noble Qur’an.

The Qur’an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Is it difficult to identify a play by Shakespeare… or a musical composition by Mozart… or a painting by Picasso?

I do not think that it would be very difficult for a connoisseur of the arts to do this because every one of these great master craftsmen of their respective trades would leave a distinctive mark in all of their masterpieces which would be identifiable as coming only from them and no one else.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is one such ‘Masterpiece’ and there is indeed a way to test and ascertain whether or not it does come from the greatest ‘Master’ there is.

The following are all the relevant posts from the thread for anyone wishing to determine for themselves the truth of the Qur’an and henceforth verifying the proof of the divine Prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh):

1, 13, 34, 65, 126, 131, [136](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php? p=2105491&postcount=136), 144, 147, 162, 191, 238, 253, 258, 260, 263, 278, 301, 302, 319, 323, 336, 351, 352, 356, 361, 369

And from other threads: 1, 2, 3

I have read many of your links and can agree that some of the information found in the Koran was unknown to human beings until recently. It causes me to have a question for you:

1. Satan & the other fallen angels, demons, existed when the earth was created by God so they have known from the beginning all the details of every aspect of creation so how then can you be absolutely certain that these “miracles” found in the Koran aren’t simply information that a demon posing as the Archangel Gabriel transmitted to Mohammed in order to sway people away from the true Church centuries later, in today’s times.

When I find myself in awe of those Koran miracles, what keeps me Catholic is knowing that the Koran is inconsistent with the Christian Traditions both Oral & Written since the very beginning of Christianity time that are detailed and documented from the 1st Century to present.

In addition, I have recently learned of an ancient Koran which has been authenticated have been uncovered in an Islamic land which when compared with modern-day Korans are different in order and content. At the moment I don’t recall the details, but the team which studied it was headed by a German man.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I answered a similar question which was asked in another thread a few months ago.

Anyhow, here is the reason why Muslims believe in the truth of the Furqan i.e. the noble Qur’an.

The Qur’an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Is it difficult to identify a play by Shakespeare… or a musical composition by Mozart… or a painting by Picasso?

I do not think that it would be very difficult for a connoisseur of the arts to do this because every one of these great master craftsmen of their respective trades would leave a distinctive mark in all of their masterpieces which would be identifiable as coming only from them and no one else.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is one such ‘Masterpiece’ and there is indeed a way to test and ascertain whether or not it does come from the greatest ‘Master’ there is.

The following are all the relevant posts from the thread for anyone wishing to determine for themselves the truth of the Qur’an and henceforth verifying the proof of the divine Prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh):

1, 13, 34, 65, 126, 131, [136](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php? p=2105491&postcount=136), 144, 147, 162, 191, 238, 253, 258, 260, 263, 278, 301, 302, 319, 323, 336, 351, 352, 356, 361, 369

And from other threads: 1, 2, 3

I have read many of your links and can agree that some of the information found in the Koran was unknown to human beings until recently. It causes me to have a question for you:

1. Satan & the other fallen angels, demons, existed when the earth was created by God so they have known from the beginning all the details of every aspect of creation so how then can you be absolutely certain that these “miracles” found in the Koran aren’t simply information that a demon posing as the Archangel Gabriel transmitted to Mohammed in order to sway people away from the true Church centuries later, in today’s times.

When I find myself in awe of those Koran miracles, what keeps me Catholic is knowing that the Koran is inconsistent with the Christian Traditions both Oral & Written since the very beginning of Christianity time that are detailed and documented from the 1st Century to present.

In addition, I have recently learned of an ancient Koran which has been authenticated have been uncovered in an Islamic land which when compared with modern-day Korans are different in order and content. At the moment I don’t recall the details, but the team which studied it was headed by a German man.

 

[Marybeloved]

I have read many of your links and can agree that some of the information found in the Koran was unknown to human beings until recently. It causes me to have a question for you:

1. Satan & the other fallen angels, demons, existed when the earth was created by God so they have known from the beginning all the details of every aspect of creation so how then can you be absolutely certain that these “miracles” found in the Koran aren’t simply information that a demon posing as the Archangel Gabriel transmitted to Mohammed in order to sway people away from the true Church centuries later, in today’s times.

When I find myself in awe of those Koran miracles, what keeps me Catholic is knowing that the Koran is inconsistent with the Christian Traditions both Oral & Written since the very beginning of Christianity time that are detailed and documented from the 1st Century to present.

In addition, I have recently learned of an ancient Koran which has been authenticated have been uncovered in an Islamic land which when compared with modern-day Korans are different in order and content. At the moment I don’t recall the details, but the team which studied it was headed by a German man.

My dear, don’t be fooled! The Qur’an has blunders that would make any modern-day believer in it blush like a ripe tomato! Did you know that Allah said in the Qur’an that Muhammad traveled to the edge of the Universe and witnessed the setting of the sun?..the Sun dunked into a muddy pool…Yeah, the Qur’an has superior knowledge alright!!

 

[Marybeloved]

Hmmm He is confused enough I guess!

Hi, Rain-bow! Godd to have you back.

 

[hamba2han]

I have read many of your links and can agree that some of the information found in the Koran was unknown to human beings until recently. It causes me to have a question for you:

1. Satan & the other fallen angels, demons, existed when the earth was created by God so they have known from the beginning all the details of every aspect of creation so how then can you be absolutely certain that these “miracles” found in the Koran aren’t simply information that a demon posing as the Archangel Gabriel transmitted to Mohammed in order to sway people away from the true Church centuries later, in today’s times.

When I find myself in awe of those Koran miracles, what keeps me Catholic is knowing that the Koran is inconsistent with the Christian Traditions both Oral & Written since the very beginning of Christianity time that are detailed and documented from the 1st Century to present.

In addition, I have recently learned of an ancient Koran which has been authenticated have been uncovered in an Islamic land which when compared with modern-day Korans are different in order and content. At the moment I don’t recall the details, but the team which studied it was headed by a German man.

Some people do indeed claim that the Qur’an was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Qur’an, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man?

Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. … (Al-Qur’an 35:6)

Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?- … (Al-Qur’an 36:60)

Why would Satan command that before reciting the Qur’an, one must first say:

“…I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” … (Al-Qur’an 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” … (Mark 3:26)

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc

It really boils down to a question of faith because we need to choose whether to believe in the truth of a text which has been proven to have remained 100% pure and unedited ever since it was first revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) some 1400 years ago … or to believe in contradicting accounts that are found in other ancient scriptures whose authors are pretty much unknown.

As for the supposedly different Qur’an which was found in Yemen, researchers have found nothing particularly peculiar about it, have a look at this link.

 

[MontChevalier]

Some people do indeed claim that the Qur’an was the work of the devil. Let us examine how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

If he authored or inspired the Qur’an, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man?

Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. … (Al-Qur’an 35:6)

Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?- … (Al-Qur’an 36:60)

Why would Satan command that before reciting the Qur’an, one must first say:

“…I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” … (Al-Qur’an 16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” … (Mark 3:26)

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc

It really boils down to a question of faith because we need to choose whether to believe in the truth of a text which has been proven to have remained 100% pure and unedited ever since it was first revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) some 1400 years ago … or to believe in contradicting accounts that are found in other ancient scriptures whose authors are pretty much unknown.

As for the supposedly different Qur’an which was found in Yemen, researchers have found nothing particularly peculiar about it, have a look at this link.

Satan is known for being deceptive. He is called The Master of Lies.

The intentions you state above seem harmless to you, but, from my military perspective, is merely an indirect attack against Jesus Christ. Satan may say,“Worship God alone.” but in the process throws away all the prophecies set out from the Old Jewish Testaments. In which Islam has none fulfilled.

As Sun Tzu would say:

“Use a direct attack for an indirect attack, and an indirect attack for a direct attack.”

Obviously, the Devil means to place the glory of God on only the father, when it states that no one can get to the father except through Christ. See the parallel?

As a military theorist, looking at this military makes sense. You want to get rid of Christ, simply glorify God, but keep Christ out.

-MontChevalier

 

[schaick]

I answered a similar question which was asked in another thread a few months ago.

Anyhow, here is the reason why Muslims believe in the truth of the Furqan i.e. the noble Qur’an.

The Qur’an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Is it difficult to identify a play by Shakespeare… or a musical composition by Mozart… or a painting by Picasso?

I do not think that it would be very difficult for a connoisseur of the arts to do this because every one of these great master craftsmen of their respective trades would leave a distinctive mark in all of their masterpieces which would be identifiable as coming only from them and no one else.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is one such ‘Masterpiece’ and there is indeed a way to test and ascertain whether or not it does come from the greatest ‘Master’ there is.

The following are all the relevant posts from the thread for anyone wishing to determine for themselves the truth of the Qur’an and henceforth verifying the proof of the divine Prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh):

1, 13, 34, 65, 126, 131, [136](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php? p=2105491&postcount=136), 144, 147, 162, 191, 238, 253, 258, 260, 263, 278, 301, 302, 319, 323, 336, 351, 352, 356, 361, 369

And from other threads: 1, 2, 3

lol!!! So you believe someone that says hey quess what I am a prophet and my proof is my revelation says I am?!

I am a Christian because of prophecies fufilled from the Old Testament, multiple eyewitnesses to multiple miracles proving the messanger/message was from GOD.

 

[schaick]

Satan is known for being deceptive. He is called The Master of Lies.

The intentions you state above seem harmless to you, but, from my military perspective, is merely an indirect attack against Jesus Christ. Satan may say,“Worship God alone.” but in the process throws away all the prophecies set out from the Old Jewish Testaments. In which Islam has none fulfilled.

As Sun Tzu would say:

“Use a direct attack for an indirect attack, and an indirect attack for a direct attack.”

Obviously, the Devil means to place the glory of God on only the father, when it states that no one can get to the father except through Christ. See the parallel?

As a military theorist, looking at this military makes sense. You want to get rid of Christ, simply glorify God, but keep Christ out.

-MontChevalier

Good stuff!

There is only one being that would deny the crucifixion of Christ.

 

[hamba2han]

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

And if you search for the Ten Commandments in the Qur’an, then you will indeed find them… as can be seen in this link.

Muslims follow the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

"If you love me, you will keep the commandments" (John 14:15)

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16&17)

Since Islam teaches it’s adherents to keep the Commandments, then based on the testimony of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as recorded in the New Testament, it is therefore totally illogical and inconceivable that the Qur’an could have been inspired by evil beings.

 

[MontChevalier]

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

And if you search for the Ten Commandments in the Qur’an, then you will indeed find them… as can be seen in this link.

Muslims follow the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

"If you love me, you will keep the commandments" (John 14:15)

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16&17)

Since Islam teaches it’s adherents to keep the Commandments, then based on the testimony of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as recorded in the New Testament, it is therefore totally illogical and inconceivable that the Qur’an could have been inspired by evil beings.

Those Commandments, prior to Jesus Christ, were for the Jewish people, not for the Arabs, who were still living as pagans. You claim that the Quran says so, then where is the verse? And what connection do the Jews and Arabs have according to the Commandments issued by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

-MontChevalier

 

[hamba2han]

Those Commandments, prior to Jesus Christ, were for the Jewish people, not for the Arabs, who were still living as pagans. You claim that the Quran says so, then where is the verse? And what connection do the Jews and Arabs have according to the Commandments issued by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

-MontChevalier

Here is the link again.

In order to understand the significance of the Ten Commandments in relation to the Qur’an, we need to bear in mind the following hadith:

Abu Huraira reports that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:
**
“My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’”** (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

Therefore, the Message that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought is only a continuation of the revelations brought by earlier Prophets and the deen (way of life) of Islam has been completed and is perfect in the eyes of God as told in Surah 5:3 of the Qur’an:
**
“This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”**

The Ten Commandments were revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) as a divine guide for the ancient Israelites and they have since been superseded by the Qur’an which has been revealed for all of humankind.

And although the Ten Commandments were adequate at the time of Prophet Moses (pbuh), they were rudimentary and they have since been refined to suit the needs of all of humankind till the time when world comes to an end and these refined divine laws are now found in the Qur’an which is the Last Testament of the Lord.

 

[schaick]

Allah **deceived the world **by faking a crucifixion?!?

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.”

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

AND yet allah does both changes his mind and deceives?!?

 

[MontChevalier]

Here is the link again.

In order to understand the significance of the Ten Commandments in relation to the Qur’an, we need to bear in mind the following hadith:

Abu Huraira reports that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:
**
“My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’”** (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

Therefore, the Message that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought is only a continuation of the revelations brought by earlier Prophets and the deen (way of life) of Islam has been completed and is perfect in the eyes of God as told in Surah 5:3 of the Qur’an:
**
“This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”**

The Ten Commandments were revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) as a divine guide for the ancient Israelites and they have since been superseded by the Qur’an which has been revealed for all of humankind.

And although the Ten Commandments were adequate at the time of Prophet Moses (pbuh), they were rudimentary and they have since been refined to suit the needs of all of humankind till the time when world comes to an end and these refined divine laws are now found in the Qur’an which is the Last Testament of the Lord.

That’s all nice, but you still haven’t answered my question. The Ten Commandments were for the Jews, how are they in any way, shape or form, transferred to the Muslims if they don’t even have any connections to the Jews; other than the claim they come from Ishmael, who did not receive the ten commandments, at all.

And that link is utter hogwash, since it’s merely pointing out to things said in the Quran by Muhammad; all of which are easily abrogated in later verses if it “benefits Islam” in their bid for Jihad.

No prophets of the Jews ever made mention of Muhammad, nor did they ever prophesy of him. There is no proof of Muhammads claims to any connection between him and Ishmael to begin with. And there is even less proof that the southern Arabs are connected at all to the northern; regarding lineage, therefore, there’s a severe twist in logic.

-MontChevalier

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Ishmael was Abraham’s first son & Moses who received the 10 Commandments was of the line of Abraham’s second son Isaac who was given the official First Born Son title & privileges. I never thought of it that way until I read your comment.

Catholics receive the 10 Commandments through the line of Isaac because “salvation is from the Jews”.

Perhaps the Muslims, since they claim to be a continuation of Jesus’ Church in so many words, the “true” followers of Christ, believe that they have the 10 Commandment through Jesus vis Isaac & not through Ishmael?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Allah **deceived the world **by faking a crucifixion?!?

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.”

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

AND yet allah does both changes his mind and deceives?!?

Faking the crucifixion is a Gnostic idea. Would Mohammed have had any exposure to Gnostic literature or ideas? Were there any Gnostic in his neck of the woods?

 

[hamba2han]

That’s all nice, but you still haven’t answered my question. The Ten Commandments were for the Jews, how are they in any way, shape or form, transferred to the Muslims if they don’t even have any connections to the Jews; other than the claim they come from Ishmael, who did not receive the ten commandments, at all.

And that link is utter hogwash, since it’s merely pointing out to things said in the Quran by Muhammad; all of which are easily abrogated in later verses if it “benefits Islam” in their bid for Jihad.

No prophets of the Jews ever made mention of Muhammad, nor did they ever prophesy of him. There is no proof of Muhammads claims to any connection between him and Ishmael to begin with. And there is even less proof that the southern Arabs are connected at all to the northern; regarding lineage, therefore, there’s a severe twist in logic.

-MontChevalier

The answer to your question is very likely found in the New Testament where Jesus Christ (pbuh) is reported to have said to the Jews:
**
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”** … (Matthew 21:43)

Since Jews no longer have the Lord’s Covenant, it is no surprise really that another nation has inherited the Ten Commandments or more specifically, the enhanced and refined successor to these divine Laws which is now meant for all of humankind as can be seen in the following verses:

Say (O Muhammad): People! I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you all. … (Al-Qur’an, 7:158)

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but to the whole of mankind as a giver of glad tidings and a warner, but most people have no knowledge. … (Al-Qur’an, 34:28).

 

[MontChevalier]

Ishmael was Abraham’s first son & Moses who received the 10 Commandments was of the line of Abraham’s second son Isaac who was given the official First Born Son title & privileges. I never thought of it that way until I read your comment.

Catholics receive the 10 Commandments through the line of Isaac because “salvation is from the Jews”.

Perhaps the Muslims, since they claim to be a continuation of Jesus’ Church in so many words, the “true” followers of Christ, believe that they have the 10 Commandment through Jesus vis Isaac & not through Ishmael?

That’s nice and all. But that’s pretty much destroying everything Muhammad was trying to build. i.e. “That the Arabs were the people of God.” So without the Ten Commandments being handed to them, they lack the Ten Commandments to begin with. They cannot pass on their Arabism through one whose line is of the Jews.

The answer to your question is very likely found in the New Testament where Jesus Christ (pbuh) is reported to have said to the Jews:
**
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”** … (Matthew 21:43)

Since Jews no longer have the Lord’s Covenant, it is no surprise really that another nation has inherited the Ten Commandments or more specifically, the enhanced and refined successor to these divine Laws which is now meant for all of humankind as can be seen in the following verses:

Say (O Muhammad): People! I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you all. … (Al-Qur’an, 7:158)

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but to the whole of mankind as a giver of glad tidings and a warner, but most people have no knowledge. … (Al-Qur’an, 34:28).

Again you try and point out that it’s of the Muslims, when it’s quite clear that the ones who have taken over for the Jews; whom have fulfilled the Jewish prophecies, are of the CHRISTIAN side, NOT the Muslim. So not only do you guys lack the Ten Commandments, you also lack real connections to the Jews, other than the claim you’re from Ishmael, and even that is in question.

Don’t manipulate words from the Bible to fit in with your agenda. Use your own Quran. For once.

-MontChevalier

 

[hamba2han]

That’s nice and all. But that’s pretty much destroying everything Muhammad was trying to build. i.e. “That the Arabs were the people of God.” So without the Ten Commandments being handed to them, they lack the Ten Commandments to begin with. They cannot pass on their Arabism through one whose line is of the Jews.

Again you try and point out that it’s of the Muslims, when it’s quite clear that the ones who have taken over for the Jews; whom have fulfilled the Jewish prophecies, are of the CHRISTIAN side, NOT the Muslim. So not only do you guys lack the Ten Commandments, you also lack real connections to the Jews, other than the claim you’re from Ishmael, and even that is in question.

Don’t manipulate words from the Bible to fit in with your agenda. Use your own Quran. For once.

-MontChevalier

You need to realize that the Ten Commandments were not sent down to only the Jews, they were sent down for the Children of Israel of which the Jews were only one group out of.

And even going by the argument that you have forwarded that presumably only Christians have fulfilled Jewish prophecies, you need to also realize that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not sent only for the Jews as he testifies in the New Testament:

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 15:24)

I believe that simple genetic studies will reveal that among the descendants of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, there are a lot more of their present-day descendants who are Muslims than there are Christians or Jews.