Kevin - I AM looking for the website. However - I’m also at work.
Nice try but no cigar.Wow**, Doki.**
All I can say is . . . WOW.
**This is the *****best *****you can do? Showing verses that illustrate the ****other **usage of "until"?? Nody said that it only had one single usage. That is **PRECISELY **my point - that is DOES have other uses.
**You *****haven’t *proven that Mary had other children. It simply doesn’t say this in Scripture - ANYWHERE. **While you’re at it - chew on tis one:
Deut. 34:6 tells us that nobody knew the location of Moses’ grave “until this present day”. Did they find it AFTER? Not according to the Scriptures . . .
We’re getting close to 1000 posts and not one, single Protestant (except for you, but that was hardly an answer) has been able to answer EITHER** of the 2 challenges I’ve made on this thread:**
1. Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?
*2. ***PLEASE show me where it says that she was the mother of anybody else other than Jesus and I will leave the Catholic Church today - I PROMISE.
The Word of God was delivered to the Church, and it is visible in many threads through the early writings. The Word of God can be found in the Didache, and in other places.
Yes, he did. they were able to distinguish truth from falsehood by clinging to the Teachings of the Apostles (sacred Tradition). this was especially true prior to the creation of the NT. There were many spurious writings about that were also claiming to be inspired.
I can understand how it seems this way to you.
Yes, I see the pattern. The heresy of Sola Scriptura is probably the most damaging heresy of all time. It continually creates more division and discord.
I am glad you are at least open to learning this. The answer is quite simple. Jesus commmitted everything to His Apostles, and they to their successors. The Teaching of the Apostles was the standard before a word of the NT was every written. After the letters and gospels began to be written, the contents were understood in the light of what was already held by the church as the Word of God. That is why, for Catholics, there is no contradiction between the two strands of the Word, written, and oral.
No. there are no amount of meanings of words that can change the facts. Mary had only one Child, who she named Jesus.
The Church has never prevented infants from joining with the assembly. It is true, they are a nuisance at times, but they are part of the family of God.
The promise applies to those who have not yeat been born. It is also applied to those who are born in this generation.
Yes. It was a done deal when the promise was made. It took some time for it to manifest itself.
This is one of the reasons we reject the doctrine of OSAS. We understand that some of the promises are not found in this life.
So when does asking for help become a question? When does asking for help come with stipulations? If you read his first part he said he would then on his last part he put a stipulation on it. Why don’t you answer the challange? Do you know the answer? If yes then what is it? Oh ya you don’t have to because the challenge is not for your denomination. I tried but he would not accept the answer.And who are you to tell me to move on to another thread? Since when are you incharge of threads?
You are rigth there, Doki. It is impossible to show that the mother of Jesus gave birth to any other children. However it is easy to show that all the children named as his brothers and sisters are children of another Mary.Nice try but no cigar.
Mane one and prove it was authorized by God. You can’t because if you read what Paul said "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us." All he is saying is be faithful to what you are taught weather in person or by the form of a letter; the message is the same; it is the delivery method that is the issue-obvious, which is why no one can come up with these “extra traditions” and show it came from God.
A red herring is code word that I cannot address your point w/o contradiction of God’s Word…LOL
No I have not yet to see that; I’m still waiting for some correct contextual use of the Bible.
more I can’t refute what you said w/out contradicting the Word of God AKA “Red Herring”
I’d for one would like a response to this post. As per forum rules the citation is there unless you are blind; oh never mind…what am I thinking.
I’m not trying to say the meaning of the word has to do with Mary having other children. I’m trying to learn something.
Ok, rev kev, take some deep breaths, and some meditative prayer! You have let yourself get frustrated.
One of the Sacred Traditions is that the Word of God that came to the Church is equal in value to the Word that came in written form.
We are in agreeement that the written word is the same in quaility to the oral word. Protestants became disconnected from the Sacred Tradtions when the Reformers separated from the Apsotolic Succession about 500 years ago. The traditions are not “extra”. What has happened is that you have received a limited gospel from your spiritual ancestors, who were cut off from part of what the Apstles believed and taught.
No, it is an observation that you are throwing something into the mix that does not belong, with the apparent intent of taking the focus off the real subject.
The context of the Bible is the Catholic Church. The catholic church wrote and added 27 books to the Alexandrian Septuagint, and closed the canon in 382 AD. There is nothing in it that is inconsistent with catholic teaching, because they both came from the same source.
Ok. What are you trying to learn?
What the word Adephos meand in Kione Greek. I went on several sites of the Kione Greek and it puts me to the word Adelphos. I want to know the real meaning of the word. It may not be important to you but it is to me. See I was told that the meaning of the word Adephos does not mean a connective particle, and delphus (the womb) a brother. I was told that it means what the word Adelphos means. So I want to know the true meaning of the word.
I’m thankful that you are really searching for the meaning of words. It certainly does help to understand what was being said. However, proof texting is no way to prove anything. It can help to know scripture, but to use it out of context is just as wrong. If find it humorous now that I ever doubted infant baptism. I was also raised Protestant and know the arguments against, but realized as I learned more and more the problem with approaching scripture this way.
If you don’t know what a word means then it makes it hard to understand Scripture correctly. Now I was raised Catholic but always doubted the infant baptism thing. Now I’m not saying its wrong nor am I saying its correct. I just have my doubts about it.
Kevin,
This Scripture passage is the same one we use to show Sacred Tradition. Don’t believe me? Read it here. Since we are to be faithful to what is taught by the Apostles in either letter or mouth, how are you being faithful to what they’ve said by mouth?
No, a red herring is a “fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to ‘win’ an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.” See here. An example of a red herring would be to bring up auricular Confession while speaking about baptism.
At least we are in agreement now that both parties are using the Word of God.
See above.
Yes, the citation was there but what was missing was the link so we all could read the Pope’s words in context. However, you might be unaware that all papal encyclicals and current catechism are available on the Vatican’s website.
There’s no tattle tale-ing involved: the only person I’ve warned about breaking the rules is you. If you feel I’ve broken any rules, then contact a Mod.
I am very interested in debating the issues, which is why I brought to you one of my posts to your attention. Instead, you’ve chosen to not to discuss it.
To you as well!
While I am in agreement with you here, I’d say that the Church is a denomination is a sense that we are here in the name of Jesus!
Correct, no negation on my part. I know I don’t have to remind you that it’s context, context, context.
I commented that I wasn’t trying to prove Mary had more children, even though I think it’s quite possible. I’ve looked at the evidence from you and others that she did not have more children and while it makes one think a bit, I still think it’s more probable she did have those children mentioned and the Bible isn’t real clear on the issue.**You *****haven’t *proven that Mary had other children. It simply doesn’t say this in Scripture - ANYWHERE. **While you’re at it - chew on tis one:
Deut. 34:6 tells us that nobody knew the location of Moses’ grave “until this present day”. Did they find it AFTER? Not according to the Scriptures . . .
*2. ***PLEASE show me where it says that she was the mother of anybody else other than Jesus and I will leave the Catholic Church today - I PROMISE.
