A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[Masters_Servant]

Sorry, but until you can prove that Scripture is our sole and last authority - the onus is upon you to prove differently as to Mary’s perpetual virginity.

You can start by reading Psalm 19 beginning I believe in verse 11, then go to the expanded version, which is Psalm 119.

Good bye Elvis; Eat, Drink and Be Merry because life is but a vapor, then the judgment. But also remember the wind blows where it wills.

 

[Lypher]

The Catholic Church Baptizes infants. Show me the Biblical authority to do this?

Where does it say in Holy Scripture, “Do not Baptize infants”? Show me the Biblical authority NOT to Baptize infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, “GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…”
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Why is this a question?

God Bless You

 

[rev_kevin]

Here is one Greek site I found that defines the word Adelphos:

net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=1&verse=19

Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Adelphos
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother 2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman 3) any fellow or man 4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection 5) an associate in employment or office 6) brethren in Christ 6a) his brothers by blood 6b) all men 6c) apostles 6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

---

NOW** – to be fair – you must** address my 2 challenges, which you have avoided at all costs, so far:

1. Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?

2. PLEASEshow me where it says that she was the mother of anybody else other than Jesus and I will leave the Catholic Church today - I PROMISE.

Thank you

Brother 80–Greek Adelfon 80–Strongs 80–Adelphos: from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother.

Galation1:19, And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s brother."
And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s adelfon (brother)."
And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s adelphos (brother)."
And the only apostel I met at that time was James, our Lord’s brother (delphus-the womb-blood brother by the same mother)

So according to the site that you gave me, Jesus at least had one blood brother by the name of James.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’ll ask God when I see Him; I do not think you can apply elect or non-elect to those that have the capacity to reject. God says He does the saving and He also says humans are accountable for their rejection; how God works that out is something you not I will ever comprehend; part of what makes God, God. His ways are higher than ours and His understanding, grace, mercies, and justice are beyond our complete comprehension. But I will ask Him or some other saint when I see them.

Either the non-elect/elect status is dependent on God’s predestination, which means the elect have no choice but to respond to His irresistible grace, and thus the elect are foreknew and predestined before they are born. This means non-elect person includes infants and can be predestined to Hell based on God’s choice.
OR
If there’s free will involved, those that go to Hell do so of their own making, not because God predestined and never saved them to begin with. No double predestination.
OR
God’s choice of elect/non-elect status is contingent upon mankind’s age, but that’s contrary to the Calvinism’s doctrine of God’s sovereignty and total depravity.

Jesus atonement can cover whomever the Father gives to the Son.

Catholics believe Jesus died for all.

Why not seek the Scripture, there you will find the answer and it is obvious, but you do not believe the Scripture IMO. Mary and Joseph had sexual relationship that produced children after the birth of Jesus; Jesus Himself said he had brothers and all who knew Him said he had brothers and sisters, but you do not believe it, so what more is there. I say the Bible says this and you say your church teaches that, I say the Holy Spirit teaches the individual and you say the magisterium does. One is correct and one is wrong; so we will know the truth when God decides the time is right.

It seems you believe your interpretations as self-evident and are unable to debate even when Scripture is involved. I’ve searched the Scriptures and asked you to comment on them. It makes no sense to search the Scripture and ask you for your response if I don’t believe Scripture is part of the Word of God:
DLE:

Actually, I’d say “knew” or “cleaving” is more accurate word for martial relations Bible-wise i.e. “Adam knew Eve” and later conceived and “brought forth” Cain and Seth (Gen 4:1, 25) and “Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh” (Gen 2:25, Mt 19:5, Mk 10:7, Eph 5:31). All translations from Douay-Rheims.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Either the non-elect/elect status is dependent on God’s predestination, which means the elect have no choice but to respond to His irresistible grace, and thus the elect are foreknew and predestined before they are born. This means non-elect person includes infants and can be predestined to Hell based on God’s choice.

God never condemns anyone based on His choice only on our choice. That does not mean that He does not know what that choice would be. Therefore He and only He knows who the elect are.

OR
If there’s free will involved, those that go to Hell do so of their own making, not because God predestined and never saved them to begin with. No double predestination.

This is always the case.

Catholics believe Jesus died for all.

Even non-Catholics?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

God never condemns anyone based on His choice only on our choice. That does not mean that He does not know what that choice would be. Therefore He and only He knows who the elect are.

It’s not my belief that God is the author of evil. How do you think the non-elect or elect question pertains to infants?

Even non-Catholics?

Yes, Christ is the 2nd Adam. The first Adam was a representative of all humanity. Ergo, in order for Christ to be the 2nd Adam, He has to be a representative of humanity.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s not my belief that God is the author of evil. How do you think the non-elect or elect question pertains to infants?

I think the traditional Augustinian/Lutheran answer (which I believe is still the majority opinion among Catholics), is that God’s election is not bound by the sacraments, yet the sacraments are the ordinary means by which election is realized. So elect infants are elect regardless of Baptism.

Yes, Christ is the 2nd Adam. The first Adam was a representative of all humanity. Ergo, in order for Christ to be the 2nd Adam, He has to be a representative of humanity.

I fail to see how Calvinists overlook this. If Adam represented all of mankind when he sinned, yet if Christ only represented a selection of men when he performed righteousness, then in what way could Christ truly be the Second Adam?

 

[elvisman]

What part of my comment that my ‘argument’ isn’t about her having more children am I not able to get accross to you?

Huh??

I DO NOT know from the Bible if Mary had more children. My guess is yes. Jesus did have brothers. Seems most likely they were from Mary but the Bible isn’t conclusive on that point.

The most revealing phrase in this respons is "my guess is".
Doki’s guess vs. the beliefs of the historic Christian faith.
Hmmmm . . .

 

[elvisman]

Thank you

Brother 80–Greek Adelfon 80–Strongs 80–Adelphos: from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother.

Galation1:19, And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s brother."
And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s adelfon (brother)."
And the only apostle I met at that time was James, our Lord’s adelphos (brother)."
And the only apostel I met at that time was James, our Lord’s brother (delphus-the womb-blood brother by the same mother)

So according to the site that you gave me, Jesus at least had one blood brother by the name of James.

That’s not what it says at ALL, Kevin. Like I showed you, it lists ALL of the possibilities for the word, Adelphos in Galatians 1:19

---

For you to glean the one meaning of uterine brothers and assign that one meaning to this passage is to LIE.
Here are the various possibilities for that word, according to the site:

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6a) his brothers by blood
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

 

[elvisman]

Rather than looking everywhere outside of the Word of God, which you must because you are unable to understand the Word of God for it is so obvious that Mary and Joseph had sexual relationships and too many times is Jesus referred to as having brothers and sisters that only a natural man would deny the obvious.

All you did was prove it is a possibility based on a Greek word; so in context of Scripture and the numerous references, then a Christian can conclude one thing, she had relations with Joseph that produced children; it would be unusual for a couple back then to have a single child and it would be contrary to Gods character to go against what He ordained, which was marriage, and what He encouraged, which is to procreate. So I have noted these threads become a matter of defending the Word of God to teachings that contradict, not complement the Word IMO.

I cannot continue to dialogue with you for several reasons; I do not want to be drawn into sin by disobedience to MY LORD and MY SAVIOR. Some other protestants also need to recognize their sin of disobedience and refrain from some of the dialogue.

WRONG.
You don’t want to continue this conversation because you don’t have a Scriptural, historical or hermenuetical leg to *stand *on. You make all sorts of empty claims - then you back them up with nothing but excuses and arrogance. **

Come back when you have evidence - as I showed you.

 

[Dokimas]

Huh??

The most revealing phrase in this respons is "my guess is".
**Doki’s **guess vs. the beliefs of the historic Christian faith.
Hmmmm . . .

The only belief/opinion we should care about is God’s for His and His alone are ALWAYS correct for it’s far more than belief/opinion it’s **the **TRUTH.

 

[Dokimas]

That’s not what it says at ALL, Kevin. Like I showed you, it lists ALL of the possibilities for the word, Adelphos in Galatians 1:19

---

For you to glean the one meaning of uterine brothers and assign that one meaning to this passage is to LIE.
Here are the various possibilities for that word, according to the site:

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6a) his brothers by blood
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

I’ve not seen your response to my question as to the relationship between John and James and between Andrew and Peter in light of the fact the Bible uses the same word for brother that is used of the men mentioned relating to Jesus.

 

[Dokimas]

WRONG.
You don’t want to continue this conversation because you don’t** have a Scriptural, historical or hermenuetical leg to *stand *on. You make all sorts of empty claims - then you back them up with nothing but excuses and arrogance.

Come back when you have evidence - as I showed you.

Bold statements to a person possibly banned because of innaccurate information.​

As I’ve pointed out to you before, it is you that is arrogant. Romans 2:3 is a warning to you.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s not what it says at ALL, Kevin. Like I showed you, it lists ALL of the possibilities for the word, Adelphos in Galatians 1:19

---

For you to glean the one meaning of uterine brothers and assign that one meaning to this passage is to LIE.
Here are the various possibilities for that word, according to the site:

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6a) his brothers by blood
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

I noticed that you leave out the origin-from 1 (as a connective particle) and Delphus (the womb) brother. Why do you leave this out?
from 1 is a brother, whether born of the same two parents of only of the same father or mother.
What do you say it means here in Galatians 1:19 if not blood brother?

 

[adrift]

Correct, no negation on my part. I know I don’t have to remind you that it’s context, context, context.

If the sentence said, ‘June did not have sex with her husband until her first child was born’, what would you conclude after the baby was born?

You can’t conclude anything since it does not say what happened after the baby was born
You seemingly ignore all that I have posted.

So in the same vein that you asked your question answer this

If the sentence said she was childless until the day she died what would you conclude after she died?

Until does not say anything about what happens after. You assume an answer but assumption does not make it true.

 

[adrift]

Your’s weren’t ‘apples with apples’ so not comment needed. You have NOT dealt with mine which are ‘apples with apples’, IMO.

On the contrary you are trying(and you are not successful) in saying that the use of until is different. It is not. Until only iimplies something happening to a certain point but does not say what happens after. You give your own definition by way of example. The examples always fail. I gave a dictionary definition. Dictionary definitions are used because they are a standard of what is meant. Produce a dictionary definition than you can say you are comparing apples with apples otherwise you are not.

 

[adrift]

I’ve not seen your response to my question as to the relationship between John and James and between Andrew and Peter in light of the fact the Bible uses the same word for brother that is used of the men mentioned relating to Jesus.

You have not responded that same word for brother is used to describe uncle and nephew as in the case of Lot and Abraham.

 

[adrift]

Bold statements to a person possibly banned because of innaccurate information​

As I’ve pointed out to you before, it is you that is arrogant. Romans 2:3 is a warning to you.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. I don’t think just because he gave inaccurate information that he was banned. Romans is a warning to us all.

 

[adrift]

I noticed that you leave out the origin-from 1 (as a connective particle) and Delphus (the womb) brother. Why do you leave this out?
from 1 is a brother, whether born of the same two parents of only of the same father or mother.
What do you say it means here in Galatians 1:19 if not blood brother?

He didn’t leave it out just phrased it differently. Blood brother is the same as (the womb)

As I have already stated, John identifies James mother as her sister in law Mary wife of Clopas.

 

[elvisman]

The only belief/opinion we should care about is God’s for His and His alone are ALWAYS correct for it’s far more than belief/opinion it’s **the **TRUTH.

Wrong.
We don’t "guess" when it comes to the truth in the Scriptures.
We trust in the teachings of the "Pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) - the guardian and custodian of the Scriptures, the Catholic Church.