A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

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LOL! Call no man father? Same ole boring anti-Catholic hogwash. LOL U-huh and Jesus also said not to call no one your teacher…😉 How does that soothe your private interpretations?
Same old anti biblical brainwash. Why would Jesus say call no one teacher?
 
LOL PR I was funnin you.

None of those are in the mass but they all should be.
So, why have I had to ask for your citations multiple times?

Anyway, I’m done playing this game.

[sign1]You cannot cite any verses from Scripture that are in the Mass because you were poorly catechized, despite attending “many a First Friday vigil” :sad_yes:[/sign1]
 
So, why have I had to ask for your citations multiple times?

Anyway, I’m done playing this game.

[SIGN11]You cannot cite any verses from Scripture that are in the Mass because you were poorly catechized, despite attending “many a First Friday vigil” :sad_yes:[/sign1]
And first saturday devotions.
Also Devine Mercy Sundays and May Day processions.
Blame that on the good Sisters of Saint Francis and the Jesuits.
 
What has changed is the RCC teaching of what “outside the church” is. Post Reformation to Vatican ll “ouside the church” was outside the Roman Catholic Church
And it still is the constant teaching of the Church. If you get to heaven, Hisalone, it will be because of the Catholic Church.
 
And it still is the constant teaching of the Church. If you get to heaven, Hisalone, it will be because of the Catholic Church.
When I get to heaven it will be because of the grace and the mercy of God
 
And first saturday devotions.
Also Devine Mercy Sundays and May Day processions.
Blame that on the good Sisters of Saint Francis and the Jesuits.
Since you were so poorly catechized and can’t cite any Scriptures from the Mass, despite attending “many a First Friday vigil”, I will give you the answer.

(BTW: It most likely was not your fault you were so poorly catechized. The CC has done an abysmal job providing catechesis to its members.)

But you can be assured, Hisalone, that you did not know the faith in which you left. (You also do not know the Scriptures very well, else you could have gone from memory and cited verse after verse)

We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)
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                                    Let us give thanks to the                                          Lord Our God. (Col 3:17)

                                    It is right to give him                                          thanks and praise. (Col 1:3)
Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3)

Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)

A death he freely accepted, (John 10:17-18)

he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25)

Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus, come in glory. (Heb 2:14-15)

In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. (John 6:51)

We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17)

May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory though your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5)
 
And first saturday devotions.
Also Devine Mercy Sundays and May Day processions.
Blame that on the good Sisters of Saint Francis and the Jesuits.
Divine Mercy Sundays???

REALLY, Hisalone?

Now the INTERESTING thing about that is that Divine Mercy Sundays are very ‘recent’ in the history of the Catholic Church.

And you say “Sundays” as in more than one year’s worth.

VERY interesting indeed.

Just how old are you again?
 
When

I get to heaven it will be because of the grace and the mercy of God
WHEN you get to heaven presumes that you WILL get to heaven. You are guilty of the sin of presumption, erroneously assuming that you are even worthy of heaven. Protestantism is the spawn of Martin Luther’s ego, lust and disobedience and continues to spread it’s errors throughout the world. Christ founded only one Church and the Catholic Church is that Church, the others are but pale imitations.
 
Actually that quote was made by Metamorphoo whom I was quoting
Irrelevant.

My point is still still quite trenchant:
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				Originally Posted by **PRmerger** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6703470#post6703470) 				
			*LOL!  Since there were no  "non-Roman Catholic Christians" at the times that those documents were  written, to whom do you think they were being addressed?*
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
And it still is the constant teaching of the Church. If you get to heaven, Hisalone, it will be because of the Catholic Church.
When I get to heaven it will be because of the grace and the mercy of God
When you get to heaven? How do you even know at this stage in life you’ll even make it to heaven? Why? Simply because you have faith and believe in God it is sufficient to reach heaven?
 
I took a look at a number of the posts in these threads, and I don’t think i am ill-informed on this subject–nor has my position been skewered and put to rest.

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council–“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding. The only meaning of the dogma Outside the Church there is no salvation is that which holy Mother Church has once declared in Her definitions. That meaning is that all who die without the Catholic Faith or outside the Church or in a non-Catholic religion cannot be saved.”

Some of the posts from one of the threads that you listed speak of some Catholic views that after non-Catholics die, they will be presented with the opportunity to submit to the pope or they can’t go to heaven. Pius IX’s above statement is pretty clear: if you aren’t in the RCC before you die, you won’t have the opportunity to become part of it after death. I don’t think his words can rightfully be interpreted to mean that Protestants who profess faith in Christ are part of the RCC, whether they realize it or not. Pius IX’s and the other papal documents I previously quoted are pretty clear-cut in what they say, if their words are taken at face value, in their plain sense of meaning.

From things I have previously read (i.e., some of the older RCC catechisms), there is an acknowledgement that it is POSSIBLE for a non-Catholic to be saved–but very difficult, due to the lack of absolution of sins from confession to a Catholic priest. The “absolution from a priest” problem pretty well applies to every non-Catholic Christian I know. Although I can’t recall the particular catechism right now, I think the term used was that salvation for a non-Catholic was “possible” but “rare” for that very reason. This is hardly opening the doors of salvation wide to 'separated brethren."
 
? Simply because you have faith and believe in God it is sufficient to reach heaven?
Indeed–clearly Hisalone’s paradigm contradicts Scripture.

For do not even the demons believe (James 2:19)? :eek:
 
acknowledgement that it is POSSIBLE for a non-Catholic to be saved–but very difficult, due to the lack of absolution of sins from confession to a Catholic priest. The “absolution from a priest” problem pretty well applies to every non-Catholic Christian I know.
Yup. Unless they have perfect contrition.
 
Irrelevant.

My point is still still quite trenchant:
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				Originally Posted by **PRmerger** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6703470#post6703470) 				
			*LOL!  Since there were no  "non-Roman Catholic Christians" at the times that those documents were  written, to whom do you think they were being addressed?*
There were groups (such as the Eastern Orthodox) who were not Roman Catholic at the time that a number of those documents were written. Those groups/individuals were labeled as heretics and/or schismatics by the RCC–and popes stated that such people could not go to heaven, i.e., were not Christian. That is the only way that you can say that there were “no non-Roman Catholic Christians” when the documents were written.
 
Yup. Unless they have perfect contrition.
What do you mean by “perfect” contrition? The old catechisms state that it is “difficult” for a non-Catholic to be saved without confession to a priest. If non-Catholics have to have “perfect contrition” in order to be forgiven, what standard of contrition are Catholics held to in order to receive absolution? Is there one standard of contriteness required for Catholics and another for non-Catholics?
 
God is Spirit and God is truth. The Spirit of God is founding many faith communities outside of Catholicsm in truth. Your polemic is invalid. Your presuppositions are false.
1 Corinthians 14:33
God is not the author of confusion.

Protestantism is confusion.

What, according to you, is the correct way to lead a Catholic?

Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Methodist, Baptist, Presybterian, Church of the Foursquare Gospel, ACTS29 Network, Mars Hill (www.marshillchurch.org), Pentecostal, Assemblies of God

Can you use early Church history to prove any of these to be in accord with the early Church?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
? Simply because you have faith and believe in God it is sufficient to reach heaven?
Indeed–clearly Hisalone’s paradigm contradicts Scripture.
For do not even the demons believe (James 2:19)?
Exactly! Hisalone’s theology is a bit kooky for me. :confused:
 
It is true there is no salvation outside the Church and that is pertaining to the message and life through the sacraments of Jesus Christ – in depth!!! Jesus said if we receive Him in the Eucharist we will have eternal life.

There are good people out there with little depth – but with sincere hearts…and Jesus looks at the heart. The Lord is the one who decides who enters into heaven or not.

Heaven will be of many surprises.

But Hisalone, I don’t think you are converting any Catholics. I thought about you this evening when I went out. How do you think you can best use your time? You said that it is through His mercy you will enter heaven…we believe the same… we draw on the Lord’s merits for our salvation and not our own…

But it is now a concern for me with the type of participation you demonstrate here on CAF that it is very judgmental, lacks understanding and is hurtful. I would suggest, my opinion alone, that you spend time with the Holy Spirit to discern how best you deal with Catholics. I don’t think you are bearing good fruit. How can you bear good fruit…may be you should spend your time being more Christlike and charitable and praying and doing penance for us…we, as yourself, all need it. I do not like circular arguments and put downs.

Some how people who claim to follow the Bible so religiously can use the sacred Word of God to condemn others. You are being judgmental as well. And I saw that for all. How far do we go until we enter a place of sin…of endless debates…and this is going back to the topic of this thread. Hisalone, seek the Holy Spirit. I don’t think you edify Christ in how you relate to Catholics. I don’t think you defend your faction as they as well come on a certain way… I think heresy is mentioned in Revelations…the images of heretics as locusts…what the locusts have devoured…in Joel…will be restored. we must look beyond present disagreements and recognize that we all believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior… let it go, move on, let God be God…seek the will of the Lord in your life.
 
If you are connected to the Head, you are automatically connected to the Body. But if you are not connected to the Head (have no real relationship with Jesus), it doesn’t matter what your church affiliation is–whethe Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Messianic Jew–you are not part of the Body of Christ. Connection to the Head is what is critical.
It is very Catholic of you to say this! 👍
That is the issue that I have with the Catholic emphasis on salvation through the Church. It is misleading. People think that because they are 'devout Catholics" it is synonymous with being committed to Christ. It ain’t necessarily so. I have known too many people (both Catholic and non-Catholic) who are more committed to their church than they are to Jesus. That only makes them committed church members, not members of the Body of Christ.
Since Jesus is at the heart of the Catholic faith, a devout person cannot help but be centered upon Him. I agree with you that there are some people who practice a form of godliness without the power thereof, but to be Catholic is to have Jesus as the the Lord of ones life, and to be completely devoted to His service. that is why we do not see a contradiction between being in right relationship with Him, and being in right relationship with His One Body, the Church.
I agree that the Body of Christ includes those who have gone before us in the faith. No issue there. But you still haven’t stated what “the Church” is:
I think I did. Perhaps you just did not agree with my reply?
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(1) an infallible institution established by Jesus; or (2) the body of people who are committed to the Lord.
I don’t see these two aspects of Church as contradictory or mutually exclusive. Jesus promised to lead the Church into “all Truth”. Those who are committed to Him can enjoy this gift of infallibility.
An institution is about organization and offices, not people.
Of what benefit is an organization and an office without people? You can’t separate them from each other. Jesus gave gifts to the Church. People are in the offices, and people exercise the gifts.
If infallibility is tied to an office, then it makes the officeholder a member of Christ’s Church–regardless of his personal relationship to the Lord.
I am sorry, but I am unable to wrap my brain around this. From a Catholic perspective, one who does not have a personal relationship with the Lord cannot be a member of His Church. One must be joined to the Head in order to be part of the Body.
If your definition of “the Church” is the latter (the body of people who are committed to the Lord), how can a person who is not an authentic Christian legitimately hold an office in Christ’s Church?
The Apostles taught that the body of believers committed to the Lord is part of what makes up the Church. They also taught that the church has divine elements, which make her infallible. These divine elements are not hindered by the fallible nature of man.
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Such a person is not a member of the Body of Christ because he isn't a Christian.
That is for the Lord to judge. If not, then we know that God is able to speak through the mouth of an ***. 😃

The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, and are not dependent upon the fallible nature of man, nor are they negated by the faithlessness of men. He cannot deny Himself.
 
Actually, the Catholic Church’s stance regarding the position of non-Catholic Christians and their relationship to the RCC has changed dramatically since Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, popes had issued the following:

Pope Innocent III --4th Lateran Council: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”

Pope Innocent’s remark may not phase your thinking, but I think the statements of Popes Boniface VIII and Eugene IV shed further insight as to how that statement was intended to mean:

Pope Boniface VIII–Unam Sanctam (One Holy).–“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins…In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

[Note: It is clear that Orthodox, Protestants, Messianic Jews do not submit to papal authority, which the pope stated is “absolutely necessary” for salvation. Unum Sanctum is often listed by the RCC as one of the “infallibles” papal declarations. If you accept the part that there is no salvation or forgiveness outside of the RCC, then you have to accept submission to the pope as essential for salvation as well.]

Pope Eugene IV–from “Cantate Domino”–“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
[Who are "separated brethren,’ the term typically used by the RCC in reference to non-Catholic Christians? Are they not, from an RCC perspective, “heretics” or at the very least, “schismatics”–no different from pagans?]

My point: These pre-Vatican II papal declarations made it clear that you had to be a card-carrying member of the RCC in order to be saved. Vatican II changed the definition of what it meant to be “Catholic”–and thereby granted RC church membership to non-Roman Catholic Christians (althoughly imperfectly joined).

So no, it was not “very Catholic” of me to say what I said in my post, when you consider papal declarations prior to Vatican II.

The Churches teaching has not changed. Our understanding of the Body has changed, but Jesus only has One Body, and there is no salvation outside of Him, no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

And just a further point, the Catholic Church is not "Roman’. 😉
 
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