A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[PRmerger]

I CAN find it in the Bible that adultery is a sin. I CAN NOT find it in the Bible that eating meat on Friday is a sin. In fact, I showed you a verse that says that no one should be told NOT to eat what God has provided.

Ok. Then your argument here is different from your previous one. You originally stated this:

Originally Posted by Dokimas
-IMO, “Forced” fasting is not fasting for the glory of God. If people are told it is a sin to eat meat on Friday, they are being forced to fast. I believe that Paul was against this form of ‘fasting’ by complusion.

Now your argument is that* you can’t find it in the Bible *to fast from meat. We can address that later.

To address your first argument I ask: If you are being told that it is a sin to commit adultery, does that mean you are being “forced” to remain faithful to your wife? Yes or no?

Clearly the answer is no.

Similarly, if we are being told that it is a sin to eat meat on Friday it does not mean we are being “forced” to fast.

 

[PRmerger]

-God can tell us what is sin and what is not sin. God doesn’t change.

So what does God say about embryonic stem cell research? Is that a sin or not?

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you, PR.

:tiphat:

Eating meat on Friday was a sin and now it is not a sin.

Actually, there’s nothing objectively sinful about eating meat on Fridays. What made it a sin was disobedience.

Just like my analogy of parents telling one child it’s ok to drive at age 16 and another to drive at age 18. It’s the parent’s decision.

Comparing eating meat on Fridays with adultery is like comparing apples with oranges, instead of comparing apples with apples.

I was not comparing the two. I was just showing you an example of something that’s wrong (adultery) which does not make you feel a compulsion to do the right thing (be faithful).

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe you should restate your analogy so I can understand you point because I thought you were making the comparison.

It’s an analogy to show this principle: an authority can make a rule and then change a rule–that’s part of the “power” that has been given to an authority.

Now, just to be clear, no authority has the power to change a truth. No teacher or parent can say, “Now I declare that 2 + 2 = 5!” But, a parent or teacher can indeed say, “I told your class to do problems 1-10 for homework but I’m going to now say that you must do problems 1-15.”

 

[Dokimas]

We also have a minister who appears to spend more time with us in circular debates than attending to his own congregation…

Is it any of your business?

 

[Dokimas]

Ok. Then your argument here is different from your previous one. You originally stated this:
Now your argument is that* you can’t find it in the Bible *to fast from meat. We can address that later.

To address your first argument I ask: If you are being told that it is a sin to commit adultery, does that mean you are being “forced” to remain faithful to your wife? Yes or no?

Clearly the answer is no.

Similarly, if we are being told that it is a sin to eat meat on Friday it does not mean we are being “forced” to fast.

Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. My ‘argument’ has been the same, IMO, and that is that forcing people to fast is not permited in the 1 Timothy verse I quoted. My reference is to the practice by the CC of saying it was sin to eat meat on Friday’s until that rule was changed.​

I have somewhat of a clue what fasting is. Jesus did not eat any food for 40 days and nights at least once. There are other combinations that I’m sure is acceptable to God. Forcing by calling it sin is not permissable to God, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

So what does God say about embryonic stem cell research? Is that a sin or not?

Or what does God say about watching TV or spending so much time on the computer answering statements on CAF? Come on, PR, I think you know that’s silly and not what I was referring to. Maybe not?

 

[PRmerger]

Or what does God say about watching TV or spending so much time on the computer answering statements on CAF? Come on, PR, I think you know that’s silly and not what I was referring to. Maybe not?

'zactly, Doki. You have no idea what God says is a sin or not regarding modern day issues, if all you’re going by is Scripture.

 

[Dokimas]

:tiphat:

Actually, there’s nothing objectively sinful about eating meat on Fridays. What made it a sin was disobedience.

Just like my analogy of parents telling one child it’s ok to drive at age 16 and another to drive at age 18. It’s the parent’s decision.

I was not comparing the two. I was just showing you an example of something that’s wrong (adultery) which does not make you feel a compulsion to do the right thing (be faithful).

According to the 1 Timothy verse in question, God holds those who force abstaining from food God’s given more responsible than those who disobey the directive not to eat meat on Fridays. Shepherds are always held to a higher standard. Do a Bible search for shepherd.

Of course I must add, this is my opinion. I don’t pretend to speak for God. If I’m correct if proves God still speaks through donkeys.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. My ‘argument’ has been the same, IMO, and that is that forcing people to fast is not permited in the 1 Timothy verse I quoted. My reference is to the practice by the CC of saying it was sin to eat meat on Friday’s until that rule was changed.​

I have somewhat of a clue what fasting is. Jesus did not eat any food for 40 days and nights at least once. There are other combinations that I’m sure is acceptable to God. Forcing by calling it sin is not permissable to God, IMO.

I think your argument was refuted by Tantum Ergo here: "If Catholics were forbidden to ever eat meat, I would grant you your Timothy. But they aren’t.

The way Paul uses “abstain” here does not equal the way that Catholics use ‘abstain’. For Paul used "abstain’ in the sense of ‘forbidding ever to eat a given food’ and we use it for ‘refrain from eating at a certain time’.

If you’re quoting Timothy and using “abstain” and condemning it in Catholics, what then do you say about fasting?

When you FAST, do you not 'abstain from food???

**The Bible tells us to fast. **

So either you have a flat-out contradiction where St. Paul says, 'You may not abstain from food" but Scripture says, “When the Bridegroom is gone they shall FAST (and fasting is abstinence from food)”. . ."

 

[Dokimas]

It’s an analogy to show this principle: an authority can make a rule and then change a rule–that’s part of the “power” that has been given to an authority.

Now, just to be clear, no authority has the power to change a truth. No teacher or parent can say, “Now I declare that 2 + 2 = 5!” But, a parent or teacher can indeed say, “I told your class to do problems 1-10 for homework but I’m going to now say that you must do problems 1-15.”

Here’s a truth that should be changed:

1 Timothy 4:
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[Dokimas]

'zactly, Doki. You have no idea what God says is a sin or not regarding modern day issues, if all you’re going by is Scripture.

I’m not sure how this answers my point from 1 Timothy 4.

I’d think any church and leaders would want to be VERY careful to **only ** call things sin the God says is sin. Seeing how the taking of innocent life (murder) is sin, playing with an unborn very well could fall into the catagory of sin, IMO.​

BTW, is abortion an issue covered under doctrine or practice? I think those were the words used to describe the different types of rulings in the CC.

 

[Dokimas]

I think your argument was refuted by Tantum Ergo here: "If Catholics were forbidden to ever eat meat, I would grant you your Timothy. But they aren’t.

The way Paul uses “abstain” here does not equal the way that Catholics use ‘abstain’. For Paul used "abstain’ in the sense of ‘forbidding ever to eat a given food’ and we use it for ‘refrain from eating at a certain time’.

If you’re quoting Timothy and using “abstain” and condemning it in Catholics, what then do you say about fasting?

When you FAST, do you not 'abstain from food???

**The Bible tells us to fast. **

So either you have a flat-out contradiction where St. Paul says, 'You may not abstain from food" but Scripture says, “When the Bridegroom is gone they shall FAST (and fasting is abstinence from food)”. . ."

i’m still confused; seems were going around and around and gettin nowhere.​

BTW, ‘abstain’ is in the present tense which might indicate that it only refers to what’s happening now. Telling someone the can’t eat meat on Friday’s falls into that understanding, IMO.

 

[PRmerger]

-I’m not sure how this answers my point from 1 Timothy 4.

My reference to embryonic stem cell research was in response to your statement here:

-God can tell us what is sin and what is not sin

Since you go by the Bible alone to tell you what’s a sin and what’s not, you have a deficient means of knowing what God says about some modern day issues.

 

[KathleenGee]

Dokimas…

Issue about it being our business or not is it becomes an issue when the topic is hashed and rehashed repeatedly and the person claims to be a minister…he is using people’s sincere efforts to explain to him in good faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

The world is made up of all kinds of people…there are the main church Traditions and the small church traditions such as fasting from meat on Friday’s.

There are many people in the world who cannot afford meat. But the main point at hand was that the Church wanted people to fast and recall the sufferings Christ endured and to make Friday a day of remembrance for His death.

Christ said in the gospels, ‘to do penance lest’ we ‘likewise perish’…that is a grave command. So Friday’s was enacted as a response to this directive by Our Lord.

The Church looks at culture and if anything causes undue burden, it is removed. What the church binds on earth is bound in heaven, and the church declaring it a sin to do penance in the way of abstaining from meat on Friday is acting within its boundary as Christ’s Church committed to the fullness of the Gospel.

The way to hell is broad and easy, and the Church by preparing a form of penance whether in Lent or on past Friday’s is drawing on the Gospels and that we do not live this out alone, which is burdensome, but together as a church.

 

[PRmerger]

-BTW, is abortion an issue covered under doctrine or practice? I think those were the words used to describe the different types of rulings in the CC.

You’re talking about doctrine, dogma and discipline.

The CC’s teaching on abortion is called a doctrine.
Any teaching on faith or morals is called a doctrine. A dogma is a specific doctrine that has been formally defined.

Discipline has to do with governance or practices of the Church. Or, as Br. Rich, SFO stated: Discipline is man made Church law that is always reflective of Doctrine.

 

[Dokimas]

Since you go by the Bible alone to tell you what’s a sin and what’s not, you have a deficient means of knowing what God says about some modern day issues.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you for your opinion.

But isn’t it also true, Doki?

 

[Dokimas]

You’re talking about doctrine, dogma and discipline.

The CC’s teaching on abortion is called a doctrine.
Any teaching on faith or morals is called a doctrine. A dogma is a specific doctrine that has been formally defined.

Discipline has to do with governance or practices of the Church. Or, as Br. Rich, SFO stated: Discipline is man made Church law that is always reflective of Doctrine.

I asked about abortion. Your response seems to say that abortion is, "You’re talking about doctrine, dogma and discipline.’???