Z
Zatzat
Guest
May I ask why the creator of the universe would consider it a mortal sin worthy of eternal damnation, if one of his children ate a pulled pork sandwich on a Friday?
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E
Edward_H
Guest
Maybe I missed a couple of posts above, but has someone suggested that stumbling on a fast (or abstaining) is a mortal sin? Confession by the way isn’t just for mortal sins.
I guess short of intending to hurt God by deliberately taking on a fast, and then deliberately failing in it in spite of God (which would be I suspect a grave matter), stumbling on a fast or failing to abstain isn’t a mortal sin. At least in my understanding.
I make concrete resolutions with God often, and many times I fall short. I don’t consider these grave/mortal matters, but I consider them worthy of mentioning in a confession.
The Creator of the world made everything and it is all good. He just doesn’t want us to put things in between Him and us (food, ego, posting on forums, sex, ourselves, and even “the law”).
We use fasting and abstaining (and other deliberate acts of detachment) to help us enter in to a deeper prayer with God and to train our senses and our will to be at the subject of God, not our appetites.
God gives us Sacraments to help us in our struggle. He knows we’re going to need to “begin again,” like the prodigal son (and his bum of a brother).
I guess short of intending to hurt God by deliberately taking on a fast, and then deliberately failing in it in spite of God (which would be I suspect a grave matter), stumbling on a fast or failing to abstain isn’t a mortal sin. At least in my understanding.
I make concrete resolutions with God often, and many times I fall short. I don’t consider these grave/mortal matters, but I consider them worthy of mentioning in a confession.
The Creator of the world made everything and it is all good. He just doesn’t want us to put things in between Him and us (food, ego, posting on forums, sex, ourselves, and even “the law”).
We use fasting and abstaining (and other deliberate acts of detachment) to help us enter in to a deeper prayer with God and to train our senses and our will to be at the subject of God, not our appetites.
God gives us Sacraments to help us in our struggle. He knows we’re going to need to “begin again,” like the prodigal son (and his bum of a brother).
I
IntegraCatholic
Guest
Zatzat, the sin is not in the act itself but in the disobedience to God’s will. It is no different from eating the apple…
Bookcat, one canon lawyer or Jimmy Akin or a few people saying something does not constitute legitimate doubt of the law. You can find a handful of probablist moral theologians who will say just about anything. That doesn’t mean we can follow their opinion. If someone has a definitive document to bring forth, that would be great.
To OP,
I would highly recommend you keep your children from going to confession to this priest. He obviously does not know what he is talking about, which is a terrible shame.
You are right to feel sorrow for what you did, but we all fall into sin. We have to pick ourselves up and grow in humility at our frailty. That being said, it is good to know that if someone deliberately breaks a law of the Church, it is a mortal sin (e.g., missing Mass on Sundays or days of obligation, not fasting or abstaining on appointed days, being married contrary to the laws of the Church, etc.)
Bookcat, one canon lawyer or Jimmy Akin or a few people saying something does not constitute legitimate doubt of the law. You can find a handful of probablist moral theologians who will say just about anything. That doesn’t mean we can follow their opinion. If someone has a definitive document to bring forth, that would be great.
To OP,
I would highly recommend you keep your children from going to confession to this priest. He obviously does not know what he is talking about, which is a terrible shame.
You are right to feel sorrow for what you did, but we all fall into sin. We have to pick ourselves up and grow in humility at our frailty. That being said, it is good to know that if someone deliberately breaks a law of the Church, it is a mortal sin (e.g., missing Mass on Sundays or days of obligation, not fasting or abstaining on appointed days, being married contrary to the laws of the Church, etc.)
Z
Zatzat
Guest
Please help me understand. Why would God approve of one his children eating a rich slice of cheese cake on a Friday, but not a slice of ham?
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Edward_H
Guest
Zat,
Two points.
The answer is partly in my post just above namely not putting things in between us and God.
The meat thing is I think more connected to the History of our Church. We’re in part connecting with, and following our brothers and sisters across time, when we abstain from meat, like they did.
You have a solid point too…replacing meat with cheese cake is not living in the spirit of detachment connected with fasting and abstaining. Abstain from both and smiling more that day might be a good approach.
Two points.
The answer is partly in my post just above namely not putting things in between us and God.
The meat thing is I think more connected to the History of our Church. We’re in part connecting with, and following our brothers and sisters across time, when we abstain from meat, like they did.
You have a solid point too…replacing meat with cheese cake is not living in the spirit of detachment connected with fasting and abstaining. Abstain from both and smiling more that day might be a good approach.
Z
Zatzat
Guest
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.
I
IntegraCatholic
Guest
Why would God approve of one of his children eating a rich slice of cheese cake and not the apple from the Tree of Knowledge?
The things of this world are not evil in themselves if used properly. One can eat a cheesecake and not be attached to the things of this world, and one can eat scrapes from the trash can and be attached to the things of this earth. The former is spiritually poor, the latter, being actually poor, is spiritually gluttonous. There is nothing wrong with cheesecake or meat or anything else. God through his Church has determined that no one will eat meat on Friday in order to show their obedience to him and also so that they can mortify themselves in some way from the things of this earth. You may say that not everyone likes meat. It is impossible to choose any particular food that everyone likes without choosing something that would be detrimental to health, and even then I don’t know if you could find one. In any case, meat has historical reasons, and besides it is much easier, in fact, to give up sweets than it is meat, which gives more sustenance to the body. This may not be true in 2010 or for modern man addicted to candy and sugar, but as I said, there are historical reasons.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I really understand your approach…it was mine.Regardless of what some canonm lawyers and theologians may have said and as MR Jimmy Atkin has said ( if you read the entire articule) it is not you saying that US catholics are obligated it is the Church that says we are.
You have not given one Bishop saying otherwise. There is not confusion in the cannon law about this it is quite clear. Catholic are to abstain form meat on all fridays except solemnities. the Bishop may offer antlernate. what is confusing about that?
But it seems from Jimmy Akin’s and the Theologian I mentioned and the example from the Canon Lawyer…that there is not “obligation” but then again…perhaps one could still argue as you are doing that there is…but then again there can be said that there is a “doubt” here…(the way Canon Law means doubt) and thus Canon 14 kicks in…
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Zatzat
Guest
The other answer was much better imo.
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Bookcat
Guest
My other change was “too late”…
So here is the post in full:
I really understand your approach…it was mine.
But it seems from Jimmy Akin’s and the Theologian I mentioned and the example from the Canon Lawyer…that there is not “obligation” but then again…perhaps one could still argue as you are doing that there is…but then again there can be said it seems that there is a “doubt” here…(the way Canon Law means doubt) and thus Canon 14 kicks in…as I noted…
So in any case I think *let us do penance on Friday’s *for all the good reason that it is a day of penance and for all the reasons the Bishops note in their document
With joy
So here is the post in full:
I really understand your approach…it was mine.
But it seems from Jimmy Akin’s and the Theologian I mentioned and the example from the Canon Lawyer…that there is not “obligation” but then again…perhaps one could still argue as you are doing that there is…but then again there can be said it seems that there is a “doubt” here…(the way Canon Law means doubt) and thus Canon 14 kicks in…as I noted…
So in any case I think *let us do penance on Friday’s *for all the good reason that it is a day of penance and for all the reasons the Bishops note in their document
With joy
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
AmenSo in any case I think *let us do penance on Friday’s *for all the good reason that it is a day of penance and for all the reasons the Bishops note in their document
With joy
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
There a lot of us in the area and the more we talk about the more bcome aware that it is still the way it is suppose to be.
I
IntegraCatholic
Guest
Bookcat,My other change was “too late”…
So here is the post in full:
I really understand your approach…it was mine.
But it seems from Jimmy Akin’s and the Theologian I mentioned and the example from the Canon Lawyer…that there is not “obligation” but then again…perhaps one could still argue as you are doing that there is…but then again there can be said it seems that there is a “doubt” here…(the way Canon Law means doubt) and thus Canon 14 kicks in…as I noted…
So in any case I think *let us do penance on Friday’s *for all the good reason that it is a day of penance and for all the reasons the Bishops note in their document
With joy
One canon lawyer or Jimmy Akin or a few people saying something does not constitute legitimate doubt of the law. You can find a handful of probablist moral theologians who will say just about anything. That doesn’t mean we can follow their opinion. If someone has a definitive document to bring forth, that would be great.
God bless.
B
Bookcat
Guest
The Bishops were trying I think very much in 1966 to emphasize that the moral obligation to abstain from meat on Fridays outside of Lent and Holy Week was no longer there and to get this across so people would not scruple about it…
and the use of language more on the side of strongly encouraging people to do things with generosity (not just from obligation) etc
that the language was more away from at least the direct language of obligation (remember too the 1983 code with its particular language was not written yet…)
Jimmy Akin’s and the Theologian I mentioned and the example from the Canon Lawyer…state that there is not an “obligation” but then again…one could still argue that there is and one can find theologians who hold that one is too or at least repeat that there is… but then again there can be said it seems that there is a “doubt” here…(the way Canon Law means doubt) and thus Canon 14 kicks in…according to Jimmy Akin
In any case I think… let us do penance on Friday’s for all the good reasons that it is a day of penance and for all the reasons the Bishops note in their document
For in any case Friday* remains* a day of penance…
I
IntegraCatholic
Guest
Is there a document that has the exact language about this? That would make it very important in understanding its role in the current discussion. If it did not establish particular law (which I assume it didn’t), then the 1983 code trumps it.
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autdrew
Guest
This has been a great deal of help & I thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have decided not to talk to the Bishop re this priest. It may have been misunderstanding on my part though I do believe he did say that is doesnt matter anymore. However, he hasnt ever preached any message other than Church teaching in his homilies. That is why I will leave it lay. I will not have the children go to him for confession, just to be sure.
I dont think he was using it as a point to teach me not to be scrupulous. I have made all sorts of stretches of rules & rationality, in the past, to justify all sorts of bad behavior by me. That is why I do get a bit concerned when I catch myself giving in to temptations. I have 2 great sins, gluttony has been one I have struggled with, not only gluttony of food but other things. I also have a strong desire for my children to not see their mother as a hypocrite. When I make a vow, I try very hard to stick to it, not only for myself & my holiness but to be a good example to them. I had 2 do as I say, not as I do parents lol.
Again, thank you all very much. I enjoy the forums very much and have learned quite a bit lurking.
I dont think he was using it as a point to teach me not to be scrupulous. I have made all sorts of stretches of rules & rationality, in the past, to justify all sorts of bad behavior by me. That is why I do get a bit concerned when I catch myself giving in to temptations. I have 2 great sins, gluttony has been one I have struggled with, not only gluttony of food but other things. I also have a strong desire for my children to not see their mother as a hypocrite. When I make a vow, I try very hard to stick to it, not only for myself & my holiness but to be a good example to them. I had 2 do as I say, not as I do parents lol.
Again, thank you all very much. I enjoy the forums very much and have learned quite a bit lurking.
D
DeepeningFaith
Guest
If you look back to post 17 you can see the link to the document in question. As the Church sometimes tends to do, they make it so that it can be interpretted a variety of different ways. I am going to contact the USCCB today if I am able to get a legit answer on this.
Pax!
C
Cristiano
Guest
I think that the proper information is not even clear and available to priests. Yesterday, I talked to my confessor and he stated that we do not have to abstain from meat anymore (during regular Fridays) but we must perform acts of corporal mercy if we do not abstain from meat. This does not appear to be fully consistent with either the explicit paragraphs of Canon Law (mandatory abstinence) or the pastoral letter of 1966 where we have only an exhortation to perform another sacrifice. I am really tempted to write to my Bishop and ask for clarification once and forever. As a catechist I do not want to present to the students something that is subjective (personal devotion) as objective (mandated by the CCL or by the Bishop). I know where I stand but I do not want to give misleading information either way.
B
Bookcat
Guest
The document is the one from 1966 as noted. It was later confirmed again by Rome after the 1983 Code… See Jimmy Akin
The debate is around if there is any ‘obligation’ on other Fridays or if this was entirely removed for the US…and then strongly urged etc…
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IntegraCatholic
Guest
Thank you for this PDF. I was entirely unaware of this particular law for the United States. While I certainly won’t be changing my practice of observing the traditional days of fast or abstinence, I am sad to hear about this, yet it is good to know what the true law is for the faithful of the dioceses of America.
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