S
Solmyr
Guest
How can you reconcile the desirability of unbridled “free will” with the events in Orlando?
- Status
G
GEddie
Guest
I’m not sure exactly how the events of Orlando relate to free-will, but I for one have long held that unlimited free-will is nothing but a mirage.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
G
Gorgias
Guest
So, you’re really just asking the “problem of evil” question, then?
Y
ynotzap
Guest
Unbridled free will to live a life contrary to the natural law, and the supernatural law on the part of both parties that are involved, the shooter and some of those shot? They both either were ignorant of these laws, or were indifferent to these laws. Unfortunetly, you don’t believe in the reality of a determinded evil force that hates God, and those that love God. This force has a tremendous negative influence on those that do not know or love Christ. Or haven’t you yet understood the message of salvation, or do you treat it as a myth? And who would be considered innocent? Christians pray for all to receive truth and salvation from these horrors, but who listens? America suffers from a need for a moral conscience but truth is so relative, some live by their own truth which is so out of touch with reality. Free will that is not in line with right reason and morality will always lead to evil. What we do as individuals has a consequence on society, and ourselves. What is hatred, love? And who is the greatest hater of all? Who is the greatest murderer, and liar? Wake up!! It’s not like you haven’t heard.
S
Solmyr
Guest
Oh, I agree, that the word “unlimited” is a poetic exaggeration. The events in Orlando are horrific, and they were committed because the perpetrator had ENOUGH freedom to commit it. Many people put the “freedom” to a very high pedestal, saying that having such freedom is “worth” whatever is committed because of it. The question is: what is your opinion? Needless to say I say that it is not worth it. If I had the power to prevent such acts, I would do it in a heartbeat.
J
JD1789
Guest
What if you also had the power to deliver an infinite good as remediation for the suffering at the hands of another? This is really the only decent answer to the problem of evil. One must believe that God will provide such a great reward to those who suffer once they die. After all, the entire Christian religion is built upon the belief that God himself suffered and died in order to allow for everyone to receive His infinite goodness, truth, and beauty.
S
Solmyr
Guest
Nope, that simply does not work. If the “suffering at the hands of another” would be a logical prerequisite for that “infinite good”, then this argument would be valid. The “greater good” argument is only valid if the suffering is logically necessary for the “good” to achieve. If God could bestow that greater good without the prior suffering, than the suffering is gratuitous, unnecessary suffering and that is not compatible with “love”.
And it fails.
No matter what “good” would be given to the victims in Orlando, it cannot “make up” for their suffering - and the suffering of their families and loved ones. Gratuitous evil cannot be justified.
R
RPRPsych
Guest
Exactly. For a moment, I thought he was asking about the philosophical problem of free will.
G
GEddie
Guest
A weak argument, in that one must exercise faith to accept it, and faith is a grace.
ICXC NIKA
P
phil_at_dayboro
Guest
We all have unbridled free will ,
We can go out and commit dreadfull things ,
or , we can go out and be compassionate to those in need ,
Or, we can be ignorant of what is good & bad and live for ourselves,
Which Catagory do you fit in ?
We can go out and commit dreadfull things ,
or , we can go out and be compassionate to those in need ,
Or, we can be ignorant of what is good & bad and live for ourselves,
Which Catagory do you fit in ?
P
Pilgrim_333
Guest
According to the wisdom of the Church our dignity, as persons, is found in our ability to initiate and control our own actions (cf. CCC 1730). This dignity, this free will, is what makes us like God; without free will we would either be slaves or beasts. Love is most perfectly demonstrated by the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, in which each Person is unlimited, wanting for nothing, yet gives freely and without reserve, without fear. This example of perfect, divine love shows us that love is only perfected when it can be freely given; without free will there can be no true exchange of love. You are judging perfect love with a temporal lens on a limited scale.
All evil is gratuitous, properly speaking and while certain acts of evil are especially egregious and insidious, it is folly to suppose that our hope of good is in this life alone and therefore counterbalanced by evil acts committed in this life.
J
JD1789
Guest
A finite suffering pales in comparison to an infinite good. In order to be able to freely chose the good and to freely love, men must also be able to commit terrible acts. Why do you assume that an infinite good would not be able to remediate a finite evil?
J
JD1789
Guest
This is a possible explination for those who would already accept the existence of God from some other means.
V
Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Solmyr, there are police and laws and I notice you don’t complain about all the crimes they have stopped.
GEddie’s replies here are realistic.
GEddie’s replies here are realistic.
B
Bahman
Guest
Yes, but you cannot possibly get good from suffering because suffering is related to evil rather than good. Moreover you cannot exchange finite things for infinite things unless God intervenes.
We cannot freely choose. We simply choose rationally. Terrible acts are simply wrong but not evil. We could resist to perform wrong action if we are trained well otherwise we simply fail over and over.
Because our acts are simply good and evil. Evil and good are simply universal concepts attached to our actions. You cannot possibly transform good to evil and vice versa.
B
Bill_Martin
Guest
Free will is only a capability to choose between possible actions. We all have unlimited free will.
G
GEddie
Guest
Unbridled, but not complete.
Our will has determinants, among them our physical soma, our internal biology, our interpersonal geometry and our subconscious processing. It is conditioned as everything else in our beings.
Perfect freedom is a mirage.
ICXC NIKA
Y
ynotzap
Guest
Originally posted by JDl1789: What if you had the power to deliver an infinite good as remediation for the suffering at the hands of another?
Consider: What if to arrest the God given power given to Satan to dominate those who like himself were proud and rebellious was to use Satan’s own pride and blindness against him and lead him to forfeit his reign or dominance? What if God became a humble human, and allowed Satan to use those he had dominance over, to crucify Him, a Just man, whom Satan had no right to dominate and thus forfeiting his power over men who turned to Him for deliverance from Satan’s dominance,or reign. Jesus being God made that sacrifice an eternal good, would that not answer the logical prerequisite for that “infinite good” as being a remediation for the suffering at the hands of another? Would that not make the argument valid? Personally I have no doubt that it would.
S
Solmyr
Guest
Nothing can justify the existence of unnecessary, gratuitous evil. The church teaches that even if an “evil” act is committed with the explicit aim to bring forth some good, and even if it is successful, the evil cannot be allowed.
That is sheer nonsense. How is your ability to perform good acts lessened or prevented if your neighbor’s ability to commit evil is removed? Is your “freedom” to love logically contingent upon the “freedom” of someone else to commit evil?
S
Solmyr
Guest
Of course I support the prevention of acts of violence. We have very limited power to prevent such acts, but as long as we can, we should. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
- Status