A question to all of you who defend unlimited "free will"

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ynotzap said:
Consider: What if to arrest the God given power given to Satan to dominate those who like himself were proud and rebellious was to use Satan’s own pride and blindness against him and lead him to forfeit his reign or dominance? What if God became a humble human, and allowed Satan to use those he had dominance over, to crucify Him, a Just man, whom Satan had no right to dominate and thus forfeiting his power over men who turned to Him for deliverance from Satan’s dominance,or reign. Jesus being God made that sacrifice an eternal good, would that not answer the logical prerequisite for that “infinite good” as being a remediation for the suffering at the hands of another? Would that not make the argument valid? Personally I have no doubt that it would.
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Was that sacrifice logically necessary to establish that “infinite good”? Did it even achieve its purpose? After all the church teaches that Satan is the “Prince of evil”, and he is still allowed to roam the world freely and is allowed to try to corrupt humans. If that is true, then the sacrifice was useless. Was God powerless to forgive our “trespasses” unconditionally?

How about God using his infinite power to simply smite Satan… or even better - not to create him in the first place. Again the adage about the prevention and the cure comes to mind.
 
Solmyr said:
Nothing can justify the existence of unnecessary, gratuitous evil. The church teaches that even if an “evil” act is committed with the explicit aim to bring forth some good, and even if it is successful, the evil cannot be allowed.

That is sheer nonsense. How is your ability to perform good acts lessened or prevented if your neighbor’s ability to commit evil is removed? Is your “freedom” to love logically contingent upon the “freedom” of someone else to commit evil?
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Granting that evil is the absence of good, if you cannot chose an act that is evil, then you must chose an act that is only and always good. There is no freedom there. If love is “willing the good of another” then it is not possible without the free will.
 
Bahman said:
Yes, but you cannot possibly get good from suffering because suffering is related to evil rather than good. Moreover you cannot exchange finite things for infinite things unless God intervenes.

We cannot freely choose. We simply choose rationally. Terrible acts are simply wrong but not evil. We could resist to perform wrong action if we are trained well otherwise we simply fail over and over.

Because our acts are simply good and evil. Evil and good are simply universal concepts attached to our actions. You cannot possibly transform good to evil and vice versa.
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I reject your premise that we cannot freely choose. I see no evidence to the contrary but am open to receiving some.
 
JD1789 said:
Granting that evil is the absence of good, if you cannot chose an act that is evil, then you must chose an act that is only and always good. There is no freedom there. If love is “willing the good of another” then it is not possible without the free will.
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That is simply not true. Even if one accepts that evil is the absence of good, there are always many different “good” options, and many different “neutral” options. So you can always choose which good or neutral action you take. And that is sufficient.

Now, if you are adamant that one should always be given the option of doing something that is evil, then here is the solution: “you always have the option NOT to worship, NOT to serve God”, and that is allegedly “evil”. You have the option to blaspheme God, and that is the worst possible action - so they say. So there is absolutely no reason to give the ability of hurting each other.
 
Solmyr said:
Usually the definition of free will includes the ability of act on that will.
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Subject to the relative limitations pointed out by GEddie.

Which work both ways of course - including the positive conditioning which we can deliberately contribute to ourselves. Which indeed reinforces your point.

Not everybody had the luck to be brought up well like you and me and avoid being led astray or our soul destroyed in our formative years.
 
Solmyr said:
… How about God using his infinite power to simply smite Satan …
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The smiting of Satan is on its way.

Human history so far is caught in the moment before.

The phrase comes to mind, “Life on life’s terms” (which always makes me shudder).
 
Solmyr said:
That is simply not true. Even if one accepts that evil is the absence of good, there are always many different “good” options, and many different “neutral” options. So you can always choose which good or neutral action you take. And that is sufficient.

Now, if you are adamant that one should always be given the option of doing something that is evil, then here is the solution: “you always have the option NOT to worship, NOT to serve God”, and that is allegedly “evil”. You have the option to blaspheme God, and that is the worst possible action - so they say. So there is absolutely no reason to give the ability of hurting each other.
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God is love. In order to have true love, you must have free will. Love is not just for God, but also for each other.

When we hurt or kill others, it’s because we choose not to love our neighbor and chose to lust after something else (money, power, sex, etc).

Free will is all about the capacity to love. Since love can be directed towards both God and one another by humans; we have the ability to hate both God and one another.

If we didn’t have the ability to hurt one another, we wouldn’t be able to truly love one another either. We hurt or kill other humans because we decide we love (or lust after) something material over loving our fellow human.
 
JD1789 said:
I reject your premise that we cannot freely choose. I see no evidence to the contrary but am open to receiving some.
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Given a set of prioritized options would you pick up the best option or the worst?
 
Bahman said:
Given a set of prioritized options would you pick up the best option or the worst?
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Sometimes I picks the best option and sometimes I don’t. I do chose how to prioritize the options though.
 
JD1789 said:
Sometimes I picks the best option and sometimes I don’t.
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Why don’t you sometimes pick up the best options? You need a reason for that otherwise you are not a rational being. That is nonsense.
JD1789 said:
I do chose how to prioritize the options though.
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You cannot choose how to prioritize the options. This is done in your subconsciousness.
 
Bahman said:
Why don’t you sometimes pick up the best options? You need a reason for that otherwise you are not a rational being. That is nonsense.

You cannot choose how to prioritize the options. This is done in your subconsciousness.
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Sometimes I chose things that are not best for me. I need no reason for this. My rationale abilities aren’t continent on the ability to chose, but rather to sort through my options in a logical way. I’m free to choose against ration. We see this all the time when we sin.

I disagree with not being able to prioritize. I can make choices that form and direct what I hold in priority. I can change my priorities. They are influenced by my genetics and environment, that much is obvious, but I still have a will. You must provide some heavy evidence to show that the free will we all inately believe to have is just a mirage, if I am correct in assuming that it what you believe.
 
JD1789 said:
Sometimes I chose things that are not best for me. I need no reason for this.
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How you could choose not the best option when you put the effort to prioritize them? This is contradictory and against our nature.
JD1789 said:
My rationale abilities aren’t continent on the ability to chose, but rather to sort through my options in a logical way. I’m free to choose against ration. We see this all the time when we sin.
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Where does the tendency for performing a sin come from? Either it is due to your nature or Satan tempts you.
JD1789 said:
I disagree with not being able to prioritize. I can make choices that form and direct what I hold in priority. I can change my priorities. They are influenced by my genetics and environment, that much is obvious, but I still have a will. You must provide some heavy evidence to show that the free will we all inately believe to have is just a mirage, if I am correct in assuming that it what you believe.
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You have no choice to accept your prioritized options if prioritizing is the result of your genetic, environment and your experiences.
 
Solmyr said:
Was that sacrifice logically necessary to establish that “infinite good”? Did it even achieve its purpose? After all the church teaches that Satan is the “Prince of evil”, and he is still allowed to roam the world freely and is allowed to try to corrupt humans. If that is true, then the sacrifice was useless. Was God powerless to forgive our “trespasses” unconditionally?

How about God using his infinite power to simply smite Satan… or even better - not to create him in the first place. Again the adage about the prevention and the cure comes to mind.
Click to expand...
Logic is a tool used by humans to acquire truth, God is the truth. from a human perspective all that God does, according to proper and true logic, is perfectly logical. Knowing Satan’s weakness, pride and arrogance, God did not deceive Satan into forfeiting his dominance over mankind, He allowed Satan to deceive himself. A brilliantly, Godly plan. By doing so, God, Jesus, Godman, ransomed mankind by humbling Himself, even to death on a cross, Satan’s downfall. His sacrifice is useless to those who refuse to accept His gift of “unconditional love”, for He loved us while we were in the state of rebellion, sin. This is believed to be the “cause of His tears” for mankind, knowing that some would refuse this “gift of salvation, freelyl given” to all those who would by their wills accept it. Our wills can accept salvation, or reject it. Satan is allowed to roam the earth, still tempting men to sin, and those that do not have the “free gift of salvation” merited by Jesus remain in his dominance, subject to him in their weakness. Men are tested in their fidelity to God, and love for God, and with the grace of God, His Spirit, can defeat Satan, who is a fallen angel, superior to mortal men, and that again is a brilliant, Godly accomplishment Satan has already been smitted:) eternally, and it’s being played out in time. He is condemned to eternal failure, and he knows it, but he is compelled to eternal frustration, and I believe he would annihilate himself if he could,knowing that what he was created for is beyond his grasp for eternity, for ever, and forever without end. Who is like God!
 
ynotzap said:
Logic is a tool used by humans to acquire truth, God is the truth. from a human perspective all that God does, according to proper and true logic, is perfectly logical. Knowing Satan’s weakness, pride and arrogance, God did not deceive Satan into forfeiting his dominance over mankind, He allowed Satan to deceive himself. A brilliantly, Godly plan. By doing so, God, Jesus, Godman, ransomed mankind by humbling Himself, even to death on a cross, Satan’s downfall. His sacrifice is useless to those who refuse to accept His gift of “unconditional love”, for He loved us while we were in the state of rebellion, sin. This is believed to be the “cause of His tears” for mankind, knowing that some would refuse this “gift of salvation, freelyl given” to all those who would by their wills accept it. Our wills can accept salvation, or reject it. Satan is allowed to roam the earth, still tempting men to sin, and those that do not have the “free gift of salvation” merited by Jesus remain in his dominance, subject to him in their weakness. Men are tested in their fidelity to God, and love for God, and with the grace of God, His Spirit, can defeat Satan, who is a fallen angel, superior to mortal men, and that again is a brilliant, Godly accomplishment Satan has already been smitted:) eternally, and it’s being played out in time. He is condemned to eternal failure, and he knows it, but he is compelled to eternal frustration, and I believe he would annihilate himself if he could,knowing that what he was created for is beyond his grasp for eternity, for ever, and forever without end. Who is like God!
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Sorry, my friend, you did not answer any of my questions. Was the sacrifice logically necessary? Could have God simply forgiven our “trespasses”, without this sacrifice? Did that sacrifice make ANY difference in the Earthly affairs? Are there fewer sinners? Why did God create Satan in the first place, if he knew what Satan will do?

None of these questions are ever answered. And, of course, what is the point to allow the heinous massacre in Orlando?
 
Solmyr said:
Sorry, my friend, you did not answer any of my questions. Was the sacrifice logically necessary? Could have God simply forgiven our “trespasses”, without this sacrifice? Did that sacrifice make ANY difference in the Earthly affairs? Are there fewer sinners? Why did God create Satan in the first place, if he knew what Satan will do?

None of these questions are ever answered. And, of course, what is the point to allow the heinous massacre in Orlando?
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It was logically necessary, because God could have forgiven our trespasses without this sacrifice, but only to leave us in a state of weakness to still be unable to conquer ourselves or the powers of Satan, we would remain completely vulnerable. With His grace we are able to conquer ourselves, and Satan. His sacrifice made tremendous difference in the lives of multitudes through the centuries. There are fewer sinners because of it God created Satan good, but by his own choice he became completely bent on evil, that’s what happens when you have an immutable will, one choice, no ignorance involved. When one makes himself god , through pride he rejects submission in love and humility to God and reaps the fruit of lies, eternal darkness, hatred of self and others, separation from God the source of love and eternal happiness.

Did God commit these heinous massacres because He allowed it?. Your error in judgement blame God for the acts of men. You don’t accept that mortal men are given free will to commit these acts. And you don’t understand that God can draw good from these acts, IOW, God by you standards is limited in His Omnipotence, and Omnicience and isn’t really God at all, He is limited by your understanding of who He is. You are applying a humanistic, secular ideology to God, which is grave error in your thinking. You can reject that too, as I suspect you will, but then again I am not infallible.

Accordingly, by your standards God must strip mankind of the ability to choose what he desires because it might be evil, or the wrong choice, and only allow man to do the ultimate good, abolishing free will. Man would then not have a choice. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love freely given by God, is reciprocated by man who should give his love freely to God, it is completely just and right. If God doesn’t receive that love, it doesn’t alter His state of love and goodness, but if man gives it, it does alter his state to one of goodness, and happiness.
 
ynotzap said:
It was logically necessary, because God could have forgiven our trespasses without this sacrifice, but only to leave us in a state of weakness to still be unable to conquer ourselves or the powers of Satan, we would remain completely vulnerable. With His grace we are able to conquer ourselves, and Satan. His sacrifice made tremendous difference in the lives of multitudes through the centuries. There are fewer sinners because of it God created Satan good, but by his own choice he became completely bent on evil, that’s what happens when you have an immutable will, one choice, no ignorance involved. When one makes himself god , through pride he rejects submission in love and humility to God and reaps the fruit of lies, eternal darkness, hatred of self and others, separation from God the source of love and eternal happiness.

Did God commit these heinous massacres because He allowed it?. Your error in judgement blame God for the acts of men. You don’t accept that mortal men are given free will to commit these acts. And you don’t understand that God can draw good from these acts, IOW, God by you standards is limited in His Omnipotence, and Omnicience and isn’t really God at all, He is limited by your understanding of who He is. You are applying a humanistic, secular ideology to God, which is grave error in your thinking. You can reject that too, as I suspect you will, but then again I am not infallible.

Accordingly, by your standards God must strip mankind of the ability to choose what he desires because it might be evil, or the wrong choice, and only allow man to do the ultimate good, abolishing free will. Man would then not have a choice. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love freely given by God, is reciprocated by man who should give his love freely to God, it is completely just and right. If God doesn’t receive that love, it doesn’t alter His state of love and goodness, but if man gives it, it does alter his state to one of goodness, and happiness.
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Why sacrifice was needed when God can simply forgive our sins? Sacrificing is only an older tradition than Christianity. It only found its way into Christianity because people didn’t have any explanation for death of Jesus.
 
Solmyr said:
How can you reconcile the desirability of unbridled “free will” with the events in Orlando?
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I think what is desirable is a bridled free will, i.e. moral freedom. Freedom is not license to do evil but rather a gift which allows one to cooperate with Goodness itself.

If we could not be sinners then we could not be saints.
 
Bahman said:
Why sacrifice was needed when God can simply forgive our sins? Sacrificing is only an older tradition than Christianity. It only found its way into Christianity because people didn’t have any explanation for death of Jesus.
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Man could not merit forgiveness of sins, or make atonement for offenses against God. Jesus came to give His human life in love and obedience to the Father’s will so that others might be saved from eternal perdition. He sacrificed Himself, nobody took His life from Him, He gave it freely. No greater love has man than to give his life for another. He merited the Holy Spirit for us who gave us new life in the Spirit, a life of sanctifying grace. Without it, forgiveness itself would not fulfill man’s greatest need, God Himself. For man was created to share in divinity, not just forgiveness, with God, through Jesus we have become the divinely adopted children of God. This was accomplished through the death of Jesus who by His death, gained eternal life for those who turned to Him for redemption from sin and eternal death,Hell I already explained this in my posts to Solmyr, apparently you didn’t understand them. I still don’t know if you understand this post. Sacrifice to God is as old as man himself, even by primitive people who at least acknowledge a superior force or being. Don’t you believe that Jesus is God incarnate? If you don’t I can understand your opposing position, because it happens very often.
 
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