A rant in defense of the Novus Ordo

[Auntie_M]

Help me out. I know this has nothing to do with the OP, but I just want to understand. I read this link and it makes some claims that are rubbish, for example that EWTN is liberal in its mass or some such nonsense. I have never seen a more traditional form of the Of in my life as the one they celebrate on EWTN.

That being said, they claim that Mother Angelica was “sacked”. Where did that nonsense come from? I understood that the nuns built a new monastery and moved, but that EWTN remains at the original location. It is also my understanding that Mother Angelica is about 80 years old. It would be logical that she retired to her contemplative life and not be working as hard as she did when the network opened.

I don’t see too much change in the programming, except the afternoon cartoons, which I enjoy. Can’t help it. I’m a kid inside.

What is the truth, if anyone knows?

JR

I do think that Mother Angelica has retired. I DO enjoy EWTN and I don’t think EWTN is liberal. I DO think it tries as best it can to bring the truth to all. What would happen if it went off the air. A lot of people would never be able to hear a mass at all, (I am mostly talking about the disabled/ infirmed ones). I appreciate EWTN and do resent this kind of talk.

When is all this propanganda going to stop, When they have convinced most everyone that the BIG BAD CATHOLIC CHURCH OF ROME is destroyed… (and incidently that will make Christ out a liar!) Is that what is really happening? Is that really their agenda? If so, Lord helps us all…

 

[Auntie_M]

I agree with you that this not what the Catholic Church is about.

As a parent, this is where I would draw the line with my child. I am the adult and the child will do as I say. We can dialogue, but in the end, the parent makes the final call.

Even the Catholic Church abides by this rule. I recently met a young man on CAF who wants to become a Catholic. He approached several pastors who told him that they cannot receive him into the Catholic Church, not even into the RCIA because his parents will not consent. No parental consent, no admission into the Church. He has to wait until he’s 18.

The Church certainly acknowledges and respects the rights of parents.

JR

Jr…the one I am referring to is no longer a child, a 30 year old
who moved back into her parent’s house and now are treating them like this. It is shameful, they can only require her to move out, but if she won’t, what then. Get the police to remove her?
Please, everyone here, pray for this family and anyone else out there that finds themselves in this position.

Some Latin Mass enthusaists are not only splitting the church, but families also. Lord have mercy on us all. (Could this be the work of Satan? instead of him sitting in Peter’s chair?)

 

[JReducation]

Jr…the one I am referring to is no longer a child, a 30 year old
who moved back into her parent’s house and now are treating them like this. It is shameful, they can only require her to move out, but if she won’t, what then. Get the police to remove her?
Please, everyone here, pray for this family and anyone else out there that finds themselves in this position.

Some Latin Mass enthusaists are not only splitting the church, but families also. Lord have mercy on us all. (Could this be the work of Satan? instead of him sitting in Peter’s chair?)

This is not a healthy situation. There is something terribly dysfunctional here. This not the product of good spirituality.

JR

 

[Dies_Irae]

Another VERY VERY sad happening that alot of you may not be aware of.

It is being preached to “defend the Latin mass” AGAINST the Pope. REBEL…PROTEST…He’s not right!!! They are trying to take away our traditions, (Them against us attitudes)

But the younger ones are now starting to REBEL against their own parents. (not a new thing by no means) But a NEW thing in the Church, when they are learning THIS AT CHURCH.

“You don’t HAVE to listen to what the Pope says, we are defending our faith” But what is being defended when a child actually threatens a parent, that “I will go to the church that I want to go to and you BETTER NOT EVEN TRY TO STOP ME, and I MEAN IT!” A direct quote from a parent of a child attending the SSPX.

Folks, this IS happening. When you teach children that they don’t have to consent to the authority of the Pope as their “HOLY FATHER”, then why do they have to consent to the authority of “just an ordinary earthy father”.

This is NOT what the Catholic Church is all about. They are all FOR families being together, NOT being torn apart because of “Church beliefs?”

This is getting soooooo Protestant!

WAKE UP PEOPLE YOU DO NOT REALIZE THE AFFECT YOU ARE HAVING ON YOUR CHILDREN.

And YES, you are right, there are WOLVES among the SHEEP.

Wow. I think your post demonstrates quite clearly what Pope Benedict wrote of in the letter to the bishops accompanying the motu proprio…

"It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition. "

Relax a little bit Antie M - you’re not doing anyone any favors with such rhetoric and second hand horror stories. I think such talk and rumors and inuendoes are what makes certain folks approach this traditional forum as “mission terriroty” - feeling that you must come in here and convert the tradtional people to what you think the Church has become. And this just validates traditional people’s fears that we are in a major crisis.

I just came from an EF Solemn High Mass with a beautiful tradtional outdoor Eucharistic Procession - one of the most beautiful masses I’ve ever attended in my life . It closed with Benediction back inside the church, the huge congregation of traditional folks praying together before Our Lord for Pope Benedict and for our ArchBishop (Burke).

Seeing what I’ve seen in the tradtional catholic world, and reading your post are like apples and oranges. Just so you know.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Dies_Irae]

If you look at the definition of the Council of Trent is it referring to an inner war to overcome the sin that comes from different sources that assault us everyday.

If you look at my definition, I simplify it by saying the same thing, we work out our salvation through our battle for holiness.

There is not difference in content. The difference is in wording.

The point I was trying to make is that Militant has nothing to do with fighting other people, but with overcoming our sinful tendencies.

Also, I said that the word is used as it is used within the Romance Languages. The Council of Trent did write in Latin, which is the mother of Romance languages.

Therefore, the meaning of this word, Militant, in Latin, carries a very different meaning that it does in 2008 American English.

I hope this helps.

JR

Your definition implied that the term “Church Militant” was an outdated concept, that our real battle was within ourselves - not against the world. But again, we do battle against sin - and these temptations come from the world, the flesh and the devil - not just the flesh.

You use different words indeed - but words mean things JR. They really, really do.

And when you say, " It’s funny (not amusing) that you use the term “church militant”, becasue it is a term tha frequently gets abused on CAF. The original term comes from the Romance Languages and it had nothing to do with waging war."

But JR - we are at war. We are doing battle, as St. Paul said so clearly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians Chapter 6. Why in the world you say some of the thing you do is just, I don’t know, wierd.

You’re not just laying subtle little bombs for tradtional people to step on I hope! It almost seems like you are just daring them to be offended…but that would be akin to trying to spark divisions…and that’s not right. It’s just not right.

Please be more careful with the words you choose. Again, words do mean things.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Dies_Irae]

There are some others who seem to imagine that they are to love the Church as a parent or overseer “loves” another. It’s evident that they are very willing to criticze, condemn and ridicule the Church - that’s not the devotion a loving son or daughter should give to Holy Mother Church.

Well, sometimes love prevents someone from seeing symptoms of a serious problem with their beloved. And sometimes love requires seeing the symptoms of a problem with the beloved so that steps can be taken to fix it - so that the people who can fix it can, well, fix it.

Just my personal experience…I’ve never seen such love for the Church as I’ve seen amongst tradtional people. Well maybe not never, but rarely.

I’d also suggest you check out the thread on traditional kids - I am humbled by the faith and reverance and behavior demonstrated by these little children in traditional parishes. And that ain’t coming out of the clear blue sky - they’re getting it from mom and dad. It’s an awesome thing. (BTW, that’s one of the reason I started attending the EF years after my conversion - in addition to the liturgy itself, I was drawn to the people there - I saw the faith lived out like I’d never seen it before).

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Dies_Irae]

.
JR, I thought that you were still in the Jewish faith up until about 18 months ago? When did you become Catholic and when did you receive your theology degree. Just curious?

Sometimes it takes a while for recent converts to actually go in deeper and discover the traditional teachings, their beauty and clarity. It did me anyway (can’t say I got alot of Trent and Vatican I and older papal encyclicals during RCIA!).

Also depends on where a person was educated - some (perhaps most) catholic colleges have really gone off the deep end.

I think Pope Benedict is trying to rectify some of this now…let’s pray for his success!

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Dies_Irae]

When a Catholic believes that one religion is as good as another or that it is easier to be saved as a protestant than as a Catholic or that the Jewish faith is salvic, then a Catholic must defend the faith against those who misrepresent Her teachings.

Couldn’t agree more! And it just goes to show that not all of our battles as the Church Militant are entirely interior.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Saint_Gemma]

ALL traditionalist were DISOBEYING the Pope when they “supported” others who were. (exSSPX). The Pope declared these people to be excommunicated. The Pope said NOT to be in communion with them as they were NOT in communion with Rome. Isn’t that disobeying if only in actions, not words. Actions DO speak louder than words. Also, post #1, 5, 16, 17, 18, 23, 29 45 all talk about the negative response to the NO. So aren’t they “supporting” the EF and in turn supporting the “groups” that are NOT in communion?

Disobeying is not always an OUT RIGHT VERBAL NO

Do you think that the following statement is schismatic? (After you tell me whether or not you think the statement is schismatic, I will tell you who said it.)

What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.

We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced - as if it were a technical production - with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

So you are saying that the NO is interpreted in an “heretical way”?
Please point these parts out to me. I am sincerely asking.

The 2002(NO/OF) Good Friday Prayer for the Jews calls for the Jews to grow in love of God and be faithful to their covenant with Him, i.e. the Abrahamic Covenant, which Christ replaced with a “new and everlasting covenant”. Why should us Jews be stuck with second-class salvation, while everyone else gets to believe the truth about Christ?

 

[Dies_Irae]

Help me out. I know this has nothing to do with the OP, but I just want to understand. I read this link and it makes some claims that are rubbish, for example that EWTN is liberal in its mass or some such nonsense. I have never seen a more traditional form of the Of in my life as the one they celebrate on EWTN.

That being said, they claim that Mother Angelica was “sacked”. Where did that nonsense come from? I understood that the nuns built a new monastery and moved, but that EWTN remains at the original location. It is also my understanding that Mother Angelica is about 80 years old. It would be logical that she retired to her contemplative life and not be working as hard as she did when the network opened.

I don’t see too much change in the programming, except the afternoon cartoons, which I enjoy. Can’t help it. I’m a kid inside.

What is the truth, if anyone knows?

JR

You should probably read the book if you want to know what the author is talking about (I haven’t as yet or I’d give more of a comment). You may disagree with his arguments, but from what I’ve read of Ferarra - he always seems to source and cite everything he references, pretty meticulous in this area. So while you will (I assume) disagree with him, you probably won’t be left wondering what exactly he’s talking about - I’m sure he’ll let you know.

I have read Raymond Arroyo’s bio on Mother Angelica - and even his reporting shows there certainly was some major battles going on between her and much of the American Episcopacy. This did result, if memory serves me correctly (read the book several years ago), in her relinquishing the control she originally had over to a lay-board…seems she was trying to keep the network out of the hands of USCCB or something.

I think this is the point where Ferarra is saying changes started creeping in - not with Mother Angelica’s more recent retirement or seclusion.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[Auntie_M]

Do you think that the following statement is schismatic? (After you tell me whether or not you think the statement is schismatic, I will tell you who said it.)

What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.

We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced - as if it were a technical production - with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product.

That would depend on WHAT it is that was different. “fabricated”
liturgy? What was fabricated?

Are you saying the someone actually is saying that the liturgy is a lie?

Ok, you got me, who said it?

 

[Auntie_M]

UMMMM

Just as I thought Saint Gemma…this is straight from “the Latin Mass society” webpages.

Not saying this is, but I have found alot of misquotes connected with the “society/societies”

I don’t put alot of faith in any of these websites. They are all connected to the Pius X. As I have said before, you really have to be careful WHERE you get your info.

sorry dear, nice try:thumbsup:

 

[Auntie_M]

UMMMM

Just as I thought Saint Gemma…this is straight from “the Latin Mass society” webpages.

Not saying this is, but I have found alot of misquotes connected with the “society/societies”

I don’t put alot of faith in any of these websites. They are all connected to the Pius X. As I have said before, you really have to be careful WHERE you get your info.

sorry dear, nice try:thumbsup:

Oh, incidently, the “society’s” web says it is Cardinal Ratzinger.
but strange, Pope Benedict wants to** keep **the new rite? You mean He wants to keep a “fabricated” liturgy?

Oh no, heaven forbid!

 

[Auntie_M]

Sometimes it takes a while for recent converts to actually go in deeper and discover the traditional teachings, their beauty and clarity. It did me anyway (can’t say I got alot of Trent and Vatican I and older papal encyclicals during RCIA!).

Also depends on where a person was educated - some (perhaps most) catholic colleges have really gone off the deep end.

I think Pope Benedict is trying to rectify some of this now…let’s pray for his success!

God bless,

Dies Irae

MY MY, Dies Irae

You really seem to know everything. Tell me, where did you get all this superb knowlege.

And you being a convert, wow, you really have gotten the faith down pat, don’t you. When was it that you converted? With all the knowledge you have, it must have been a very long time.

Where did all this knowledge come from, I’d like to check into that school?

 

[JReducation]

Your definition implied that the term “Church Militant” was an outdated concept, that our real battle was within ourselves - not against the world. But again, we do battle against sin - and these temptations come from the world, the flesh and the devil - not just the flesh.

You use different words indeed - but words mean things JR. They really, really do.

And when you say, " It’s funny (not amusing) that you use the term “church militant”, becasue it is a term tha frequently gets abused on CAF. The original term comes from the Romance Languages and it had nothing to do with waging war."

But JR - we are at war. We are doing battle, as St. Paul said so clearly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians Chapter 6. Why in the world you say some of the thing you do is just, I don’t know, wierd.

You’re not just laying subtle little bombs for tradtional people to step on I hope! It almost seems like you are just daring them to be offended…but that would be akin to trying to spark divisions…and that’s not right. It’s just not right.

Please be more careful with the words you choose. Again, words do mean things.

God bless,

Dies Irae

First of all, it is not my intention to offend anyone and I apologize if anyone is offended.

Second, when I pointed to the fact that the phrase “militant” comes from the Romance languages, particularly Latin, that’s just a historical observation. It’s not an attempt to say that it is meaningless, because it’s not. The term was coined by the Council from the theology of St. Paul. St. Paul is far from meaningless. Therefore the declaration of Council cannot be meaningless. Is it in common use today? No. Has the concept been abandoned? No. You find it all over the Catechism of the Catholic Church using different wording, but the same message. St. Paul’s message has not been lost, by any Council or catechism. It has been reworded, but not changed. It can’t be changed. It’s truth.

Third, do I believe that we are at war? Yes. Do I use such wording? No. I use words like struggle, conflict, challenges, but I’m referring to the same thing.

The problem here, as I see it is a problem of language not doctrine. We are all believing the same doctrine, using different words. Just as an example, in my native language we would never use the word “war” in reference to spiritual matters. To us “war” is what is happening in Iraq. We translate the Council using the term “struggle”. I hope this example helps.

Sorry if it caused a confusion or offense to anyone.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

First of all, it is not my intention to offend anyone and I apologize if anyone is offended.

Second, when I pointed to the fact that the phrase “militant” comes from the Romance languages, particularly Latin, that’s just a historical observation. It’s not an attempt to say that it is meaningless, because it’s not. The term was coined by the Council from the theology of St. Paul. St. Paul is far from meaningless. Therefore the declaration of Council cannot be meaningless. Is it in common use today? No. Has the concept been abandoned? No. You find it all over the Catechism of the Catholic Church using different wording, but the same message. St. Paul’s message has not been lost, by any Council or catechism. It has been reworded, but not changed. It can’t be changed. It’s truth.

Third, do I believe that we are at war? Yes. Do I use such wording? No. I use words like struggle, conflict, challenges, but I’m referring to the same thing.

The problem here, as I see it is a problem of language not doctrine. We are all believing the same doctrine, using different words. Just as an example, in my native language we would never use the word “war” in reference to spiritual matters. To us “war” is what is happening in Iraq. We translate the Council using the term “struggle”. I hope this example helps.

Sorry if it caused a confusion or offense to anyone.

JR

War in our world is a divisive term. That’s just the way it is. Struggles, conflict, challenges, these are words everyone understands without the same horrors. They don’t conjur up the bloody visions of humans wasting one another, visions we cannot escape with the word war.

I’m not sure why this was so hard to understand the first time, but I’m glad you have the patience and charity to try to simplify these things for the sake of those who may have had some trouble with the explanation.

 

[Auntie_M]

As I said before, I never attended any SSPX Masses or meetings, so I never made an oath. Stopping my support of the SSPX was a very pleasant experience.

Sorry for going back a few post, but I never understood something.
You say you supported the SSPX but never went to any of their masses?

Just HOW did you support them? How did you know what they stood for and etc? Did you just, sorta, “jump on the bad wagon”
so to speak?

I really don’t see how anyone can “support” anything that they have not completely, totally, and personally inspected

But, dear, I know alot have done the same thing. I am so proud of you for recanting and separating yourself from them.

 

[JReducation]

.
JR, I thought that you were still in the Jewish faith up until about 18 months ago? When did you become Catholic and when did you receive your theology degree. Just curious?

You may be confusing two different persons. I did convert from Judaism and my conversion story is on different threads. If I remember which one, I’ll PM it to you, as well as how I and what I studied.

Forum rules and university rules do not allow that information to be posted on the threads. I recently found this out.

Thanks,

JR

 

[Auntie_M]

Wow. I think your post demonstrates quite clearly what Pope Benedict wrote of in the letter to the bishops accompanying the motu proprio…

"It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition. "

**Relax a little bit Antie M - you’re not doing anyone any favors with such rhetoric and second hand horror stories. I think such talk and rumors and inuendoes are what makes certain folks approach this traditional forum as “mission terriroty” - feeling that you **must come in here and convert the tradtional people to what you think the Church has become. And this just validates traditional people’s fears that we are in a major crisis.

Dies Irae

I am so sorry that you refuse to hear the truth.

This IS NOT RHETORIC,SECOND HAND HORROR STORIES, RUMORS, OR INUENDOES.

I am quite offended that you just called me a liar. I happen to know these people, dear friends of mine, whose daughter got involved with the SSPX and this is REALLY happening.

Now, if YOU want to bury your head in the sand, please don’t get bit by any crabs…