A serious issue in Paul's "Epistle to the Galatians"!

[Gloria_de_G]

(…) There is nothing new under the sun…Socrates.

Dear Kathleen, it looks that I am picking on you. Are you meaning that Socrates said this???

OK Here you are: Socrates is believe to have lived around 399 BC
The Ecclesiastes is believe to have been written about 971-931 BC

I told you, before you set out teaching learn first what you are going to say, here is the quote of Ecclesiastes, book which you could read to know about it:

“What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun.” Ecc 1:9

SAM…may be you missed it, but St. Paul were in Saudi Arabia today, he would be transmitting the faith to your people in the context of which they would understand.

**Precisely the story of Sarah and Hagar fits perfectly for the halve brothers of the Jews!! **

Be assured that the Holy Spirit did not lead Paul there but to Rome to co found the Church there with Peter. He had a different mission.

If you were in a local church, the clergy would augment that part of Paul’s epistle and clarify to you that Sarah’s act was not condemning the Saudi people, but reinforcing the mission of the Jewish people that they were chosen, and theologians still cannot understand why the Jews were chosen and not another monolithic faith of peoples…to bring forth the Messiah.

Sarah was very clear: “Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit along with my son Isaac.” 11 The matter was very distressing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the boy and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for it is through Isaac that offspring shall be named for you. 13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a nation of him also, because he is your offspring.” Genesis 21:10-13

Once the Messiah was here and Jesus fulfilled His mission on earth, the new reality was the Church…for all people.

Jesus broke the power of time, space and death over our lives, including the pronouncement of what happened to Hagar and her descendents.

You are closer in your lineage to Jesus than us through your Great Great Grandpa Abraham.

I have no such inheritance from ancients of the Bible.

I really think all what you are saying is so contradictory:

Jesus broke the power of time —You are closer in your lineage to Jesus than us

The Kingdom is not within the Church but within your soul in conversion to Jesus.

I really think you are a bit of a heretic to say that !:bigyikes:

From the CCC

“865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that** “the Kingdom of heaven,” the “Reign of God,”380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time**. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation”

And please Kathleen, unless you can prove that I was unjust in what I have argue with you, do not write me back because I do not want to argue, unless you are proving me wrong in my accusations against you. :flowers:

No more to say,
Gloria

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[Gloria_de_G]

I agree with your point, I know that Christianity transfers the person into a spiritual being.

I would not have disagreed with you if Paul had phrased it in a different way.

“25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring,[k] heirs according to the promise” Gal 3:25-29

You know Sam, you can not take just Gal 4:28 and try to argue from there. The whole of Galatians 3 is a preamble to your point of arguing. You can not just pick up on 4:28 and argue your point. Pick up from Galatians 3 to 5 and the argue against Saint Paul. You have nothing to say against him. Galatians 3 gives you the clue about slaves and free, do not just try by force to make your point like that. :banghead:

But there are still some pure good persons who are not fighting, killing, and torturing…

Yes, this people that **are not **fighting, killing, torturing, robbing, etc., yes, they are closer to the kingdom of God, to be our brothers and sisters. :getholy:

In the love of Saint Paul and his teachings,
Gloria

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[po18guy]

The truth I tell you, even when I remember CHRIST words in my thoughts, they bring tears to my eyes…

I believe every single word of what CHRIST personally said in the Bible, because He said “Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear”.

Remember also that there is nothing - nothing - in the New Testament which contradicts anything else that is said. Problems arise when we have a wrong or incomplete understanding of one passage or another. Seeking understanding is the key, but that takes an unhesitating faith. Saint Augustine of Hippo said it so well:

“Understanding is the reward given by belief. Do not try to understand so that you may believe, but believe so that you may understand”

 

[ericc]

Your argument is valid, I agree with you, but also remember that the Bible has passed by many stages of auditing, correction, and language translations, how do we assume that nothing got altered throughout those years, taking into consideration the differences between the Bibles (KJV, NIV, etc).

The Bible is preserved from error, not translation errors, printing mistakes etc. Even if suddenly everyone in the world has amnesia and cannot remember anything about the Bible and all bibles, papyrus etc somehow mysteriously disappeared into thin air, the statement of an error-free Bible still remains true. Likewise, even if everyone in this world dies tomorrow, the statement is still true. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Mark 13:3.

So how do you know what to believe? The Church. It is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Tim 3:15. If you have any disagreements? Bring it to the Church. Matthew 18:17. Sorry, it doesn’t go by democratic vote. The Bible can not explain itself.

 

[Sam_777]

I do not think you are right, because after all this people are the descendants of Hagar.

That is not accurate!, not all Arabs are descendants from Hagar/Ishmael, there were many Arabic tribes in the Arabian peninsula prior to Ishmael, and some tribes still maintaining an authentic family tree history to trace back their roots.

 

[Sam_777]

You can not just pick up on 4:28 and argue your point. Pick up from Galatians 3 to 5 and the argue against Saint Paul.

Gloria,

Maybe that would answer my second issue, BUT it does not answer my first one (which is the main serious issue).

 

[Sam_777]

So how do you know what to believe? The Church. It is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Tim 3:15. If you have any disagreements? Bring it to the Church. Matthew 18:17. Sorry, it doesn’t go by democratic vote. The Bible can not explain itself.

So are you suggesting that I write to the Vatican to get clarification on that issue?

But if I want to do that then I want “Pope Francis” himself to look into that issue not anyone from his assistants! which maybe impossible to do…

 

[ericc]

So are you suggesting that I write to the Vatican to get clarification on that issue?

But if I want to do that then I want “Pope Francis” himself to look into that issue not anyone from his assistants! which maybe impossible to do…

Sam,

Many posters here already explained to you how to interpret those verses. For some reason, you are not receptive to their explanations. You are more focused on trying to pin down that the verse/bible is wrong or not inspired. You are looking for punctuations in the right places, cross the t’s dot the i’s, make sure every sentence is in the right order. The Bible is not even arranged properly in chronological order all the time and at times omit stuff.

You may look for perfection in a certain way but that doesn’t make you right (or wrong.) I accept it that you may have your biases for what deems to be “proper”. And what you might deemed as proper may be to the exclusion of all others. All I can say is that you should look at the big picture, the message. If you believe that the message that Jesus brings is credible and true, you will embrace it although you may not understand it fully. We don’t always know the “why” but if you trust Jesus, you don’t need anything else. If you don’t find Jesus credible, you will always find fault somewhere. I am sorry to say this, but to me, you are coming across as nit-picking and ignoring the real message of the verses. You are more concerned about how Paul quoted a verse and less interested in what he is trying to say. That itself hints of what your priorities are. If my perception is wrong, I apologise sincerely but this is the impression that you are conveying to me. I don’t see you actively engaging in the discussion of the message, the doctrine, the meaning, the intention of Paul but only that Paul is wrong, not inspired etc.

The Pope is not the Church. The Vatican is not the Church. We are more than that. What is the point on going all the way up if the answers provided to you are not what you wanted to hear? A thousand theologians won’t satisfy you. Matthew 18:17 ends with “if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

In your previous post you mentioned Muslims somehow knew that the Bible was falsified. Instead of you reinventing the wheel, why don’t you just provide the evidence so that we can go through the supporting material together until everyone is totally satisfied what is the truth. I asked for it previously but have not gotten anything yet. Those evidence should be readily available, right? This falsification allegation is quoted so often that it appears to be cast in concrete. Of course the downside to the proponent of this falsification is that if it is not proven true and/or evidence is not there, then you have to conclude the Quran is not error free. Awaiting your evidence.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Gloria…

No I don’t see you picking on me.

In regards to Socrates…Interesting…I am not concerned about whether or not he existed around the time of anybody in the OT.

I am just remembering writing an essay when I was a senior in high school may be over 40 years ago…on what did Socrates mean ‘when there is nothing new under the sun.’…Like the Gnostic gospels did not reveal anything new the apostles did not cover.

Secondly, about the reign of the Kingdom of God, I am referring to a Catholic Update I just looked at over the weekend…and am continuing to muse over it.

I think that considering Sam’s sentiments of our Lord, and the fact that he is living in Saudi Arabia with no Catholic Church or any Christian church to attend without being publicly beheaded, that he is worshipping and loving Jesus with his own human tears on the altar of his own heart and soul. The fact that he is experiencing Jesus, he is in the kingdom of Christ although not in its dimension as part of the Church.

You have to look at context and condition and history of Sam’s situation, that his life could be endangered and we love and look out for him, and are worried when we do not hear from him at times.

Being in Christ’s kingdom is essentially encountering Jesus in conversion. Very powerful and moving…Of course, communing with Him in the Eucharist and then proving something is authentic in this by serving our neighbor in the cross and humility proves some thing real is going on and that we are encountering Him.

Blessings!

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Hi Gloria…

No I don’t see you picking on me.

In regards to Socrates…Interesting…I am not concerned about whether or not he existed around the time of anybody in the OT.

I am just remembering writing an essay when I was a senior in high school may be over 40 years ago…on what did Socrates mean ‘when there is nothing new under the sun.’…Like the Gnostic gospels did not reveal anything new the apostles did not cover.

Blessings!

Dear Kathleen, you are very nice!!!

See, I just mention Socrates dates because he did not say that saying. That saying comes from the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament, which was written much, much earlier that Socrates, ie he is just copying it!

Love,
Gloria

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[Gloria_de_G]

Hi Gloria…

I think that considering Sam’s sentiments of our Lord, and the fact that he is living in Saudi Arabia with no Catholic Church or any Christian church to attend without being publicly beheaded, that he is worshiping and loving Jesus with his own human tears on the altar of his own heart and soul. The fact that he is experiencing Jesus, he is in the kingdom of Christ although not in its dimension as part of the Church.

If you are saying this in this sense, welcome, therefore let me add that the true Church are the living members of Christ united in prayer wherever they are. So he is part of the invisible Church. In fact in the Book of Revelation we are told that in the New Jerusalem there will be no temple in her! Rev 21:22 Therefore no Vatican!! ouch! :bigyikes:

You have to look at context and condition and history of Sam’s situation, that his life could be endangered and we love and look out for him, and are worried when we do not hear from him at times.

I was saying that you, by giving Sam advise in getting Christian books and Bibles, you were ignoring the setting in which he lives, and doing this could lead him to troubles.

Blessings!

The very same for you in the love of God,
Gloria

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[Gloria_de_G]

That is not accurate!, not all Arabs are descendants from Hagar/Ishmael, there were many Arabic tribes in the Arabian peninsula prior to Ishmael, and some tribes still maintaining an authentic family tree history to trace back their roots.

Which roots

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[po18guy]

Sam, you might consider posting your concern to the “Ask an Apologist” section for explanation and clarification. After the amazing conversion and transformation that God has granted you, this is certainly important enough that you deserve an authoritative answer. The Lord has not brought you this far only to abandon you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, again Gloria…about bibles…I was referring to those he chose to bring up at beginning of post.

Yes, agree totally about the dimension of church in CCC. Just in context of where he is.

 

[Sam_777]

In your previous post you mentioned Muslims somehow knew that the Bible was falsified. Instead of you reinventing the wheel, why don’t you just provide the evidence so that we can go through the supporting material together until everyone is totally satisfied what is the truth. I asked for it previously but have not gotten anything yet. Those evidence should be readily available, right? This falsification allegation is quoted so often that it appears to be cast in concrete. Of course the downside to the proponent of this falsification is that if it is not proven true and/or evidence is not there, then you have to conclude the Quran is not error free. Awaiting your evidence.

If you presented that quote by Paul to any “secular” or a “non-Christian religion” scholar, it will not stand a chance.

Because the scripture does not say that, it’s what Sarah had said, and that is the big difference.

As for the Quran, that scripture has also many errors and historical mistakes.

The only 100% accurate words for me is what JESUS personally said.

 

[Sam_777]

Which roots

Arabian Peninsula had many Arabic tribes living in it prior to Hagar/Ishmael immigration to it.

Those Arabic tribes were not descendants from Ishmael, although later on they married and got mixed with Ishmael descendants, but there are still some few tribes which had maintained their family tree, so it can be traced back to the period before Ishmael, and my tribe is one of them.

However, some members here think that I’m upset with Paul because he re-quoted that racist statement against Hagar/Ishmael, and thus against Arabs. But that is not true, even if that statement was the other way around (i.e., against Sarah/Isaac) I would be upset also, it’s a principle issue for me.

 

[Sam_777]

Sam, you might consider posting your concern to the “Ask an Apologist” section for explanation and clarification. After the amazing conversion and transformation that God has granted you, this is certainly important enough that you deserve an authoritative answer. The Lord has not brought you this far only to abandon you.

The members here are better than that CAF forum, I had asked before a question on a different matter, but never got an answer! beside it seems all the answers are linked to a previous answers! it looks like some sort of an automated answering machine to me!

I want answers from humans who are not doing it as a “Job”.

 

[Gorgias]

) I want answers from humans who are not doing it as a “Job”.

If the issue was “what’s the best way to cook pasta?”, I’d be willing to take answers from interested amateur parties; but, if the question were vital to my life – something along the lines of “here’s what I’m experiencing… is it cancer?” – I think I’d really prefer that the answer was coming from someone who was “doing it as a ‘job’”…

 

[Gloria_de_G]

So… Sarah asked Abraham to expel Hagar, and God told Abraham that it was OK to do so, and so Abraham sent her away… and yet “Sarah never expelled Hagar”? “Abraham never gave his consent to doing that”? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say, because it sure seems like that’s exactly what happened!

Blessings,

G.

Yes, Sarah never expelled Hagar, if Abraham will not have agreed to expel her he himself, not Sarah, Hagar will have stayed there! By saying that it does not make a difference you are giving the power to Sarah and I give it to God.

Even though the result is the same: Hagar was expelled. It makes to myself much difference to know that it was not by the will of Sarah that Abraham spelled Hagar (in fact he was very upset about it), but by the will of God. That to me makes really much difference if it does not makes it to you.

In the love of the truth,
Gloria

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[Gloria_de_G]

Arabian Peninsula had many Arabic tribes living in it prior to Hagar/Ishmael immigration to it.

Those Arabic tribes were not descendants from Ishmael, although later on they married and got mixed with Ishmael descendants, but there are still some few tribes which had maintained their family tree, so it can be traced back to the period before Ishmael, and my tribe is one of them.

I do not have enough with this answer, I told you before when I asked which roots. So please if you are so sure, mention those ‘few’ that can be traced before Ishmael!!!
So now you understand that my statement was that in general the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael You like it or not…

However, some members here think that I’m upset with Paul because he re-quoted that racist statement against Hagar/Ishmael, and thus against Arabs. But that is not true, even if that statement was the other way around (i.e., against Sarah/Isaac) I would be upset also, it’s a principle issue for me.

Sorry Sam. but yes you said it in post #26, and you are so upset about
Saint Paul quoting it, that you dear even to say that he is not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you ericc.

I personally think that verse is not inspired by the Holy Spirit, that is why it’s ambiguous!, if it had been really inspired by the Holy Spirit, then it would be completely different and maybe that story itself would not have mentioned at all, because why would GOD re-quote a racial discrimination verse for an incident which will never reoccur again!

In the love of the truth,
Gloria

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