A serious issue in Paul's "Epistle to the Galatians"!

[Sam_777]

After reading your post, I go and post on another forum saying - a post at CAF said that there is “a serious issue in Paul’s “Epistle to the Galatians” !”. But I don’t mention your name.

Is it not true that there is thread on CAF that says that?

In like manner, when Paul says that Scriptures say what you quoted in Gal 4:30. It is also true and correct.

There is a big different when you say "a post at CAF said " and when you say "the post at CAF said ".

Had Paul said “a quote in the scripture said” “it’s written in a scripture”, “but what a scripture say”, that would have made a big difference…

 

[ericc]

We cannot judge Hager, we don’t know what type of treatment Sarah was giving her…

You are correct, but the Christians also mentioned in many hadiths, take for example this one:
*Sahih Bukhari, Book 92, Volume 9, Number 461:
**Narrated Ubaidullah:
"Ibn 'Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”
*

Yes, Ibn 'Abbas quoted something but without evidence. What is seriously lacking about the allegation is the evidence of change of scripture. Meaning from original to something else. As mentioned in my previous post, from a worldwide perspective how could anyone change the scriptures GLOBALLY? At the most, what they saw was some doctored documents in Arabia at that time frame. That is very different from saying that Christians/Jews are using THAT doctored version of Scriptures universally. They accused us of distorting/changing/falsifying Holy Scriptures. By Islamic law standard, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. So provide us with the evidence and we can go from there. Otherwise, presuming us guilty is not very Islamic and fair isn’t it?

 

[po18guy]

I would agree with you, but do you think that was an excuse for a saint like Paul to manipulate the words to satisfy the culture at that time!!!

Not at all, because Sarah lived a thousand or so years before. Sarah’s words, however, were preserved in the scriptures. Think of it this way: Paul could have said, “Sarah said this…” but the retort would have been, “So, what? What did Father Abraham say?” Thus, Paul would have lost his opportunity for a teaching moment. But, I believe that Paul was inspired to quote a woman (who would not be listened to), but did so in the context of the scriptures, which would be listened to. Compare this with the opportunity he had at the altar of the unknown god in Athens. He seized on that opportunity to tell the Athenians that he was sent by, and spoke of that same unknown god - a god whom they had already accepted, even if they knew nothing of him. Paul became all things to all people, so that the Gospel would reach all ears.

I really think that you are splitting hairs here. Go back a few years to that point when you first read the words of Christ and they brought tears to your eyes. That first impression was the correct one, my brother. The evil one, who never sleeps, is seeking ways of separating you from the truth which you have discovered - and, as with his temptation of Jesus, he is not afraid to use scripture to do it. As James the Less wrote: “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I have no issue with Galatians 5.

Yes Sam, there is an issue with Galatians 5 because is the same theme that is talking about in Galatians 4. :yup:
First you have Galatians 4:28-31

“28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.”

And then in Galatians 5 you have the explanation of what is to be born according to the Spirit and what is to be in the flesh.
**
Your issue is that you are trying to make Saint Paul say** that there is division because of race: Arabs versus the rest, and I am telling you that this is not the case. In fact you are upset because Saint Paul brought this account and you said:

(…) because why would GOD re-quote a racial discrimination verse for an incident which will never reoccur again!

and therefore you said that

(…)is not inspired by the Holy Spirit (…) if it had been really inspired by the Holy Spirit, then it would be completely different and may be that story itself would not have mentioned at all

Because you see here your own self and you do not like to be discriminate (no one likes that) you are very upset. In Christianity there is no Arab, no Jew, no Greek, no Hindu, no ect. what there is: PEOPLE BORN IN THE SPIRIT AND THE ONES THAT DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THAT STILL IN THE FLESH.

Believe me it is not hard to understand this, if you want. And I will say something else about Saint Paul:

You should be praising him that if that occasion has cause a division between the descendants of Isaac and the descendants of Ishmael, up to this day, that HE FINISHED WITH THE DIVISION by giving the new meaning to that story: we are, you and me and who ever believes and obeys Christ, we are the sons of the promise, the sons of Isaac, the sons of God; the rest still in the flesh, fighting, killing, torturing, etc. :bigyikes:

Hope this time is clear and you be more thankful to Saint Paul who was fully inspired by the Holy Spirit to make this statements and** finished with the race divisions* **which truly do not exist. Either you are a son of God or of the devil: nothing in between.

In the love of Christ,

Gloria

*In truth are ethnic (or even tribal) divisions, but let us leave it like that.
.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, posters here are understanding more your concern.

Another thing came to mind, there were other Jewish women in the Old Testament who mocked devout Jewish women of faith for their barrenness. And in Tobit, there was this young woman who was abused by other Jewish women because every single husband who married her died.

Hagar mocked Sarah for being barren. This is abuse that comes from pride, the worst sin of the flesh. How many times we see proud people using the veil of religion – any religion, to hide their own malice. St. Faustina, a modern saint, prayed to Blessed Mother for her intercessory prayers to protect her from those who wore the veil of religion but had malice in their hearts…and she lived in a convent with nuns!!!

We who are Christian have nothing to brag about ourselves and our works and our fecundity in bearing children. Scripture speaks of those women who have many sons, and they have no faith and do bad deeds vs the barren woman of faith who will be rewarded some day.

Our righteousness is found alone in the Lord. The Lord is the source of all our virtues and freedom.

I would see this as another trial to keep your focus on the Lord and not on people or race or culture. In the Catholic Church, what makes people lose faith is when they turn away from the Lord and look at individual people too much.

 

[jakasaki]

My Sister in Christ,

I was waiting for your Greek language skills…

Exactly.

Please complete your translation:

ἀλλὰ =
τί =
λέγει = “say”
ἡ =
γραφή = written

But
what
say
the
written

Sam~ Greek is not English. So in order to make this sentence coherent, it needs to be written properly for the English reader to understand.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

There is a big different when you say "a post at CAF said " and when you say "the post at CAF said ".

Had Paul said “a quote in the scripture said” “it’s written in a scripture”, “but what a scripture say”, that would have made a big difference…

Sam,

Do the Scriptures say what Paul quoted in Galatians 4:30?

I pray this spirit of confusion is lifted from you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yesterday I was in an RCIA class and our teacher is a historian…and a good one at that.

Galatians is essentially saying that now with Christ, all the past is gone, and we are now free through Christ. Christ is for all. So I brought up your concern and the teacher said that Galatians is exactly about being free and that you don’t need to be concerned about anything Jewish, as you are not Jewish…nor am I…to find new life in Jesus.

If St. Paul were in your region preaching, he would most likely not choose the passage regarding Sarah and Hagar but another scenario from the Old Testament.

As you speak fluent American English…how much time have you lived in an English speaking country?..you would do well to get Bibles that use contemporary English because they use the words that convey the message that was said at that time books or letters were written.

For example, there is this famous story, ‘Jane Austin’. It was written about 200 years ago in English. But they added up 2,000 words from the original story that do not have the same meaning today and had to update words to the script to convey the real story.

Same with bible translations. To get the true message, here you can call it ‘the golden thread’, you have to use the right word usage.

The King James Version is most beloved by Evangelicals and many documentaries reflect on this version. But the original is written in Elizabethan English…and if you get it, you must be good in understanding Shakespeare. You really have to think and translate old English to modern English and you waste alot of time trying to get down to what the message is.

So recommendations are for you: New Revised Standard Version, New American Bible, which is the one we use at Mass. Contemporary English Version uses colloquial American English. The Jerusalem Bible is most poetic. The New International Bible (there is no Catholic edition) is good. Also to have as reference as to what people encountered in times of antiquity is the Dictionary of the Bible, John L McKenzie. You can get this one, it is old – but most excellent on Amazon.com for about $7.

The New Testament is not as removed from time or culture as is the Old Testament.

But the Biggie here is that the Bible is NOT a history book, a science book, or a political book. It is inspired by God to communicate to us…and we must consider then its passages in terms of:

Text
Context
Genre
History
Context of faith
Community
Canonized – that is, community see the event as being correct and having authority in God

Muhammed states God told him to write out the Koran. So you can look at its content and read it literally vs the Bible.

The Bible is the Living Word of God that speaks to us in the eternal moment. At Mass, it is like being in a mystical arena where we hear of events in the Old Testament, we relive and witness what the Jewish people experienced and learned in that time…today. The Eternal Word of God is the Living Word transcends all time and space, it is the Golden Thread. We can relate truths of the Bible to our own experience today.

The Living Word – Logos – is Jesus Christ Himself.

You should get a Catholic Catechism. 109: In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.’

110: ‘In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must taken into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "for the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical setting, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.’

About Sarah having the authority to expel Hagar, she could not have done that without the consent of Abraham, who truly wanted to have a child by Sarah…their time together is testimony to that.

And there is this Greek saying, ‘The man is the head, the woman the neck.’ And some see that happening in the Old Testament…this is a joke as well. The man looks one way and the woman turns his look into another direction…joke joke joke.

 

[Sam_777]

Yes, Ibn 'Abbas quoted something but without evidence. What is seriously lacking about the allegation is the evidence of change of scripture. Meaning from original to something else. As mentioned in my previous post, from a worldwide perspective how could anyone change the scriptures GLOBALLY? At the most, what they saw was some doctored documents in Arabia at that time frame. That is very different from saying that Christians/Jews are using THAT doctored version of Scriptures universally. They accused us of distorting/changing/falsifying Holy Scriptures. By Islamic law standard, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. So provide us with the evidence and we can go from there. Otherwise, presuming us guilty is not very Islamic and fair isn’t it?

Your argument is valid, I agree with you, but also remember that the Bible has passed by many stages of auditing, correction, and language translations, how do we assume that nothing got altered throughout those years, taking into consideration the differences between the Bibles (KJV, NIV, etc).

 

[Sam_777]

Go back a few years to that point when you first read the words of Christ and they brought tears to your eyes.

The truth I tell you, even when I remember CHRIST words in my thoughts, they bring tears to my eyes…

I believe every single word of what CHRIST personally said in the Bible, because He said “Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear”.

 

[Sam_777]

In Christianity there is no Arab, no Jew, no Greek, no Hindu, no ect. what there is: PEOPLE BORN IN THE SPIRIT AND THE ONES THAT DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THAT STILL IN THE FLESH.

I agree with your point, I know that Christianity transfers the person into a spiritual being.

You should be praising him that if that occasion has cause a division between the descendants of Isaac and the descendants of Ishmael, up to this day, that HE FINISHED WITH THE DIVISION by giving the new meaning to that story: we are, you and me and who ever believes and obeys Christ, we are the sons of the promise, the sons of Isaac, the sons of God;

I would not have disagreed with you if Paul had phrased it in a different way.

the rest still in the flesh, fighting, killing, torturing, etc.

But there are still some pure good persons who are not fighting, killing, and torturing…

 

[Sam_777]

But
what
say
the
written

Sam~ Greek is not English. So in order to make this sentence coherent, it needs to be written properly for the English reader to understand.

Thanks sister in Christ.

 

[Gorgias]

remember that the Bible has passed by many stages of auditing, correction, and language translations, how do we assume that nothing got altered throughout those years, taking into consideration the differences between the Bibles (KJV, NIV, etc).

How do we know? This is the science of Scripture scholars, who examine the manuscript evidence, and observe differences between manuscripts – as well as correspondences! – and thus, are able to identify the features of Scripture manuscripts that represent original texts, as well as features that crept in over time. (These variants, of course, are then omitted from good translations of the Bible.)

 

[Sam_777]

So I brought up your concern

Thank you my friend in Christ…

About Sarah having the authority to expel Hagar, she could not have done that without the consent of Abraham, who truly wanted to have a child by Sarah…their time together is testimony to that.

I don’t have an issue with Sarah, I believe GOD allowed that incident to happen “for better good” for the humans on this earth.

However, my issue with that particular statement by Paul himself, by not quoting who actually said it, because even if you read the translation for that statement in Arabic (assuming that I want to let my friends/relatives read the Arabic Bible one day), anyone would assume it was a divine instruction!

 

[Sam_777]

How do we know? This is the science of Scripture scholars, who examine the manuscript evidence, and observe differences between manuscripts – as well as correspondences! – and thus, are able to identify the features of Scripture manuscripts that represent original texts, as well as features that crept in over time. (These variants, of course, are then omitted from good translations of the Bible.)

Which scripture scholars should I believe the Catholic or the Protestant scholars!

 

[Gorgias]

Which scripture scholars should I believe the Catholic or the Protestant scholars!

On the matter of the question of whether the Scriptures have been doctored over the ages, I think that either would answer the question “no.” We’re not talking about theologians – Catholic or Protestant – who are being asked to interpret the meaning of God’s word, but rather, scholars, who are being asked to comment on the provenance of the books of Scripture. The answer would be the same, regardless of the stripe of Christian who is being asked (unless, of course, you’re asking a non-Christian of the types who show up on ‘documentaries’ on the History Channel all the time: these come up with all sorts of dubious, non-scholarly conspiracy theories that lack credibility and evidentiary support)!

 

[KathleenGee]

Right…those documentaries on the History Channel are bunk, drawing on the condemned gnostic gospels. There is nothing new under the sun…Socrates.

SAM…may be you missed it, but St. Paul were in Saudi Arabia today, he would be transmitting the faith to your people in the context of which they would understand.

Be assured that the Holy Spirit did not lead Paul there but to Rome to co found the Church there with Peter. He had a different mission.

If you were in a local church, the clergy would augment that part of Paul’s epistle and clarify to you that Sarah’s act was not condemning the Saudi people, but reinforcing the mission of the Jewish people that they were chosen, and theologians still cannot understand why the Jews were chosen and not another monolithic faith of peoples…to bring forth the Messiah.

Once the Messiah was here and Jesus fulfilled His mission on earth, the new reality was the Church…for all people.

Jesus broke the power of time, space and death over our lives, including the pronouncement of what happened to Hagar and her descendents.

You are closer in your lineage to Jesus than us through your Great Great Grandpa Abraham.

I have no such inheritance from ancients of the Bible.

Jesus is your transformation of being from Hagar and Abraham to Jesus and the New Kingdom of God on earth.

The Kingdom is not within the Church but within your soul in conversion to Jesus. His reign in us gives us new life and we show that reign in how we treat our neighbor in serving them and helping them.

I pray for the Saudi Kingdom and pray they will some day know the Lord, and that our entire earth will know peace and justice found in Christ.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Which scripture scholars should I believe the Catholic or the Protestant scholars!

Dear Sam, I think what you need is to learn some Greek, because after all this language is the original language of the New Testament.

It is nothing about who to believe. Check your question in an interlinear English-Greek Bible (NT), if you have doubts about translations, to see what is the literally rendering. Certainly Arabic is not the original, but just another translation, and if it is loose, you are done: do not argue anything ever from that perspective, Greek is the original.

There is no Catholic no Protestant: there is only scholarly work telling us all the manuscripts that have been found in different places and the differences that there are between one text an another, the Holy Spirit will guide you to the whole truth, that is why also we have the Church.

In the love of the truth,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Yesterday I was in an RCIA class and our teacher is a historian…and a good one at that.

Dear Kathleen, I know you have good intentions but you have been saying somethings which really need a word:

Galatians is essentially saying that now with Christ, all the past is gone, and we are now free through Christ. Christ is for all. So I brought up your concern and the teacher said that Galatians is exactly about being free and that you don’t need to be concerned about anything Jewish, as you are not Jewish…nor am I…to find new life in Jesus.

Can your professor said this of someone who is half brother of the Jewish people??? REALLY??

If St. Paul were in your region preaching, he would most likely not choose the passage regarding Sarah and Hagar but another scenario from the Old Testament.

I do not think you are right, because after all this people are the descendants of Hagar.

(…)

The King James Version is most beloved by Evangelicals and many documentaries reflect on this version. ** But the original is written in Elizabethan English**…and if you get it, you must be good in understanding Shakespeare. You really have to think and translate old English to modern English and you waste a lot of time trying to get down to what the message is.

The Original of the NT is plain New Testament Greek

**I really think that to understand Sam better you should go and read his home page, I really think that he is better Christian than many of us. ** And you will see there his ideas of the Koran. Here is the link forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=233441
He wrote it in 7 parts. This is his Christian witness of his call.

So recommendations are for you:

You really want him to be martyr before his time???

In Saudi you can not have this books without offending and receiving punishment for it. That is why he uses the internet to read the Bible.

The New Testament is not as removed from time or culture as is the Old Testament.

But the Biggie here is that the Bible is NOT a history book, a science book, or a political book. It is inspired by God to communicate to us…and we must consider then its passages in terms of:

Text,Context,Genre,History,Context of faith, Community, Canonized – that is, community see the event as being correct and having authority in God

You just want to be like the Jews who make very difficult the reading of their Scriptures leaving them only for the learned. I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.
You can pick up the New Testament and follow the teachings pretty well. Go and read the First letter of Saint John and you will see that the one who loves God is the one that keep his commandments. Nothing else to believe in God.

Muhammed states God told him to write out the Koran. So you can look at its content and read it literally vs the Bible.

Go and read his home page and you will see what he thinks of the Koran…

(…)

About Sarah having the authority to expel Hagar, she could not have done that without the consent of Abraham, who truly wanted to have a child by Sarah…their time together is testimony to that.

Wait a moment!! why you do not go and read the passage properly. SARA NEVER EXPEL HAGAR NEITHER ABRAHAM GAVE HER CONSENT TO THAT. What Abraham authorized her for was to put Hagar in her place because she was treating Sarah down, when Hagar so herself pregnant. And when Sarah started to treat her harshly Hagar left and then came back again. And the second time she left because Abraham put her out (even though was at the prompting of Sarah, but he did this with a promise from God).

It is so tiring to have to teach Catholics who claim to be teachers, because you are taking that position, to go and read first carefully before you set out your ideas here. And when I tell you this I also I am telling it to my self, and if I quote wrong and teach wrong, I need to be put down, so that I may learn.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[Gorgias]

Wait a moment!! why you do not go and read the passage properly. SARA NEVER EXPEL HAGAR NEITHER ABRAHAM GAVE HER CONSENT TO THAT. …

she left because Abraham put her out (even though was at the prompting of Sarah, but he did this with a promise from God).

So… Sarah asked Abraham to expel Hagar, and God told Abraham that it was OK to do so, and so Abraham sent her away… and yet “Sarah never expelled Hagar”? “Abraham never gave his consent to doing that”? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say, because it sure seems like that’s exactly what happened!

Blessings,

G.