A serious question, even if I am playing with fire [What is the ultimate fate of the aborted fetuses?]

[Zerge]

So then they will go to hell. This was a usual teaching for a very long time.

 

[aroosi]

Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman:

No. Explain your actual point to me instead of passing off objections.

If you insist. Yes, it is the logical and rational conclusion. Immediately after being absolved of all sins… being assured of getting to heaven, there is nothing better for the freshly absolved sinner. The person who helps him (or her) to get to heaven, exhibits the highest form of love, giving up his (or her) eternal life for the good of another.

You see, I did not invent any of this. These are the official teachings of the church.

Please cite the paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which you find this (I bet there isn’t…)

 

[MrsAngelala]

Murder is intrinsically evil. It is not permissible to perform the smallest evil in pursuit of even the greatest good. The end does not justify the means.

 

[Raxus]

Zerge:

Justice would demand that someone without personal sin cannot go to hell

This does not mean that the original sin we are born into is erased. We don’t know what happens to babies who are killed before they are born, but we hope for the best.

In any event, killing a human being deprives them of all the rights that we as human beings have: To live, love, grow, shape the world, help one another, explore, discover, learn. There is nothing about abortion that is wholesome or good or right.

Period.

Repeating because it appeared to be ignored by @Zerge the last time.

 

[Raxus]

Don’t waste your time. After all I do not believe any of that. You do, however.

The fact that Catholics don’t do this ought to tell you that there’s something wrong with your logic.

 

[Zerge]

Of course you don’t know. And I have repeatedly stated, that I am only interested what you believe.

The fact that Catholics don’t do this ought to tell you that there’s something wrong with your logic.

Or that there is something with THEIR logic. And how do you KNOW that this never happened?

 

[Fauken]

Please cite the paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which you find this (I bet there isn’t…)

I’d also like to see the section where the ends justify the means and that the greatest good must be necessarily reached in the quickest way possible.

 

[Raxus]

Of course you don’t know . And I have repeatedly stated, that I am only interested what you believe.

Then you simply have an axe to grind, and nobody should take this question seriously.

 

[Raxus]

Or that there is something with THEIR logic. And how do you KNOW that this never happened?

Nah. We’ve had 2000 years to perfect our logic. And pardon my staggering assumption here, but I think we’d know if Catholics were making a regular habit of murdering people fresh out of the Confessional.

 

[Zerge]

Then you simply have an axe to grind, and nobody should take this question seriously.

What you call “an axe to grind” I call a desire to learn. And I thought that it is against the forum rules to make an uncharitable assumption about others.

 

[Raxus]

It occurs to me that logic like yours is largely shared with organizations like cults that drink poison in the hopes of catching a ride to Heaven on the back of a comet.

This is a really tragic look for you. Just saying.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

And I thought that it is against the forum rules to make an uncharitable assumption about others.

I don’t think it’s an uncharitable assumption to assume someone who says we should kill all people in states of grace has an agenda.

 

[Raxus]

What you call “an axe to grind” I call a desire to learn.

It’s not an uncharitable assumption, it’s a logical conclusion. I don’t need to be careful about my disagreement of murdering babies and adult Catholics.

 

[ThomasMT]

Don’t waste your time. After all I do not believe any of that. You do, however.

It seems me like you just came here to lash out with anger and mischaracterizations of the faith.

However, I have to thank you! There are folk on this thread with whom I’ve felt I have very little in common with. The united response against your fallacies and in defence of the faith demonstrates how much common ground we do share, and how much love I feel for this community. Thank you for demonstrating how even such hatred can serve God’s purpose.

I sense your pain, it is very familiar. It took me many years to humble myself in order to be receptive the truth.

Finally…

Of course you don’t know . And I have repeatedly stated, that I am only interested what you believe.

I believe that I dont know. What I do know and what I do believe is that whatever fate God decides for such a soul, it is just.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I said that it would be a logical action for the believers.

And you were wrong, and still refuse to admit it.

 

[Raxus]

I said nothing about actually killing people in the state of grace.

I said that it would be a logical action for the believers.

…are there two of you warring for the keyboard??

 

[CathBoy1]

What you call “an axe to grind” I call a desire to learn.

But it seems that you don’t actually have a desire to learn…

…it seems as though you have taken your (warped) position and are now refusing to change said position In light of others stating their beliefs, hence you are refusing to learn.

 

[Gorgias]

my opinion is probably going to be wildly unpopular, but I believe they probably reincarnate.

LOL!

Yes, you’re right: it’ll likely be very unpopular.

How would you square it with St Paul’s teaching in the Bible? He writes, “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment” (Heb 9:27).

So, how can you assert that he (and the Bible!) are mistaken, and that reincarnation is really what happens?

I’ve heard that Limbo used to be taught

It was a theological opinion. It was never an official doctrine of the Church.

They still have the stain of original sin, it’s not inconceivable for God to intervene but I’m of the opinion they don’t go to heaven.

You’re just on the ‘other’ side of the Limbo opinion. Some said “Limbo is in heaven, but without the Beatific Vision”, while others said – as you do – “Limbo is in hell, but without punishment for personal sin.”

Either way… it’s not what the Church teaches, per se.

I keep praying, and God keeps telling me the same thing.

If you keep being told “they’re reincarnated”, then we can guarantee that it’s not God who is telling you that.

If you want to pray that I can stop believing that, then please do.

Will do!!!

Except… the Church doesn’t stop there:

Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope , rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12).

From the International Theological Commission’s document The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being Baptized, as found on the Vatican website.

Google it. Here is one example:

Two thoughts:

• First, this blog doesn’t make the claim you made (namely, that they baptized and immediately murdered).
• Second, take a long hard look at the named source of the information: reformation.org. Now, think about that for a second. The Spaniards weren’t merely ‘Christians’ as such… they were Catholics. The source you’re quoting second-hand comes from Protestants. Gee… do you think there was any bias? Any distortions? Any ‘fake news’ there?

seem to?

Yes, because God could – if He wished – provide that “grace needed for the Beatific Vision” by a means known only to Him (and not including a literal, physical baptism). We are limited by doctrine; God is not.

 

[Gorgias]

You see, I did not invent any of this. These are the official teachings of the church.

The Church also teaches that a person may not do evil, so that (a perceived) good will result. It would be sinful to do so. So… you’re mistaken here, friend.

And how do you KNOW that this never happened?

Jim Jones proved that killing his congregants in order to save them isn’t a strategy that has legs.

I said that it would be a logical action for the believers.

No, it wouldn’t.

 

[Zerge]

Well, this was interesting, and I learned quite a lot. Thanks for your contribution. I will leave this thread now. If I had the ability to lock the thread I would. Hopefully a moderator will do the honors.