A silly simple question on sexual orientation (re gay marriage)

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I disagree with you. This is not the issue. Society less and less now believes that homosexuality is a moral disorder. Turns out many heteros are privately practicing some of the same forms of sex. This is not about self-control; it is about age-old mores around acceptable forms of sexual intimacy. The older codes and restrictions are breaking down because they lack a strong rational component.
Of course, I disagree, because I am not speaking from a societal point of view but from a Catholic one. The Catholic position is rational, it is just not strictly materialistic, so it won’t be accepted by many. We don’t expect everyone to agree with us, but we have the same freedom of belief (or non-belief) as everyone else.
 
Grace & Peace!
Nope…we mean sexuality. Many things in our culture push the idea that we are sexual beings and we “have” to have sex. Kids are given condoms because kids will be kids and we don’t want them to get hurt when they inevitably sleep with someone. We talk about sexual “needs” when really we are referring to sexual “wants”. Nobody ever died from lack of sex but our society, in many subtle and overt ways, pushes just that sort of idea.
Forgive me for barging in, but I think we need to be very clear about what we’re talking about. What you’re saying, Cecilia, makes no sense in light of the Roman catechism. In fact, even the catechism agrees that we cannot control our sexuality, but we *can *control how we act upon it, how we express it.

The reason is this: the catechism defines sexuality as an important part of what makes us human, an integral component of our human nature because it has everything to do with our relational capacity, that is, our affective ability to relate with and to other people. (I can quote the relevant passages if you like.)

As such, sexuality is construed as a given. It is not something that you turn on or off.

Where the catechism buts heads with science and our growing understanding of human sexuality, though, is that the catechism does not believe in heterosexuality or homosexuality as those terms are generally understood. Granted, the sexuality which the catechism discusses looks most clearly like heterosexuality. But the term is not frequently used, and this can only be seen as a conscious choice.

Homosexuality, therefore, is considered a defective sexuality–hence it is called an objective disorder. It is subject to all of the various moral strictures given in the catechism because it is understood as a rupture in the very relational capacity itself. As such, it is a moral disorder because it affects how a homosexual wills. Their affectivity is damaged. It is nothing like a physical disorder of any sort, and it is only remotely related to other pathologies such as alcoholism or kleptomania, because while those pathologies affect the will, they do not, however, affect the relational capacity of the human being directly–an alcoholic can be sober, but can still have normal human relationships. A homosexual, however, can be chaste, but their fundamental relational capacity remains impaired.

Like it or not, this is the most reasonable conclusion one can reach given the catechism’s logic: a homosexual is someone whose relationships cannot help but be inappropriate–this inappropriateness finds its ultimate expression in what the catechism considers the evil of homosexual acts. In short, according to the catechism, a homosexual is someone whose humanity is irrevocably impaired. It’s not entirely missing. It’s just broken. That brokenness is different from the brokennes of original sin in that the catechism generally understands nature to be wounded, but not destroyed by sin. Homosexuality, being an objective disorder, however, is characterized as an impairment of basic human affectivity. Willing the good is not impossible to someone whose will is broken by original sin (as all of our wills are so broken)–that is, human desire is still capable of being influenced by grace. Homosexual desire, however, is incapable of such influence. A homosexual’s humanity is therefore impaired. To be honest, and I mean this only slightly in jest, if one is seeking a comparison, the catechism suggests it is not so much to alcoholism that homosexuality can be compared, but more to something like vegan meatloaf. It’s still meatloaf…but there’s no meat.

Which is not to say that a homosexual is less human than a heterosexual. No. A homosexual is perfectly human. A homosexual’s humanity is simply more *inhibited *by various viccissitudes that may or may not include biology, genetics, nature and/or nurture. The solution is not to be more human, therefore (that would be absurd)–it is, rather, to accept the limitations that have been placed on the full expression of their humanity.

To be fair, the moral conclusions that the catechism draws are not wrong or unjust given the catechism’s basic assumptions regarding sexuality.

Those* assumptions*, however, are wrong.

Obviously, I have a problem with the Roman catechism’s construction of sexuality. I am a gay Anglo-Catholic (there are many who would say that’s redundant, but c’est la vie). As a culture, we are in the midst of discovering that the catechism’s view of sexuality is like the Church’s embrace of geocentrism at the dawn of the Copernican revolution: simply untenable. That’s just a fact. On the ethical side of things, we have evidence that people in homosexual relationships can in fact grow in virtue, by God’s grace: the surest sign of human flourishing. This is also an observable fact. I’ve been in a committed monogamous relationship with a lovely Christian man for almost 12 years now. I love him. I’m a better person for it, and a better Christian because of it. I am happier, not because our home is a den of insatiable homosexual orgiastic lust and because I have the tendency to confuse happiness with pleasure, be it sexual or otherwise. Like many here, I am generally suspicious of the pursuit of happiness (particularly conceived of as pleasure) as an end in itself–it is certainly a questionable moral enterprise on which to embark. I have often been heard to quote the old saying, “count no man happy 'til he’s dead.” But I cannot deny that the love and relationship I share with my partner has been a source of great peace, joy, and, yes, a vessel of grace in my life.

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED & COMPLETED)

Moreover, I am not in the relationship I am in because I cannot “control my sexuality,” however that phrase is construed. I am in the relationship I am in because God has blessed me with this fantastic person who has revealed to me just how wonderful and merciful and loving God really is. One could argue, using the catechism, that my perception of the goodness of this relationship is flawed because my ability to relate to the good itself is constitutionally impaired by the presence of the homosexual disorder. There are various consequences to thatrgument, few of them morally sound, which we can discuss. I will not deny, though, that whatever good I have or am is not my own, and that my relationship with the good is, in fact, not that of one who possesses it, but of one who merely seeks to participate in it to the degree that God’s grace will allow.

While no one has ever died from lack of sex, I would argue that people have been deadened for lack of relationship, and that includes even a chaste romantic relationship and romantic love. In other words, when we are talking about homosexuals in relationship with each other, we are not simply talking about sex. It’s easy to be cavalier if sex is all we’re talking about. But no. What we’re really talking about is a homosexual’s ability to be human and to express their humanity (which includes their sexuality!) in loving ways, even when, especially when, those ways do not include sex.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
(…CONTINUED & COMPLETED)

Moreover, I am not in the relationship I am in because I cannot “control my sexuality,” however that phrase is construed. I am in the relationship I am in because God has blessed me with this fantastic person who has revealed to me just how wonderful and merciful and loving God really is. One could argue, using the catechism, that my perception of the goodness of this relationship is flawed because my ability to relate to the good itself is constitutionally impaired by the presence of the homosexual disorder. There are various consequences to thatrgument, few of them morally sound, which we can discuss. I will not deny, though, that whatever good I have or am is not my own, and that my relationship with the good is, in fact, not that of one who possesses it, but of one who merely seeks to participate in it to the degree that God’s grace will allow.

While no one has ever died from lack of sex, I would argue that people have been deadened for lack of relationship, and that includes even a chaste romantic relationship and romantic love. In other words, when we are talking about homosexuals in relationship with each other, we are not simply talking about sex. It’s easy to be cavalier if sex is all we’re talking about. But no. What we’re really talking about is a homosexual’s ability to be human and to express their humanity (which includes their sexuality!) in loving ways, even when, especially when, those ways do not include sex.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I would never argue that homosexual relationships are all about sex, I understand that there are deep connections there. I have gay friends and I see their genuine affection for one another.

But God’s law is not a matter of our agreement with it, or our current societal norms. It does not change. Certain acts are sinful (yes, even if heterosexuals do them!) and I do not believe that a person can grow in grace while persisting in sin. This is the Catholic position.

CCC 1861 "Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "

…and the entire section on homosexuality and chastity, for those who have not read it and might be curious (emphasis mine):

"2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. **These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

Again, I’m not naive enough to think this makes everyone agree with me. My intention is to make a clear presentation of the Catholic belief.
 
Of course, I disagree, because I am not speaking from a societal point of view but from a Catholic one. The Catholic position is rational, it is just not strictly materialistic, so it won’t be accepted by many. We don’t expect everyone to agree with us, but we have the same freedom of belief (or non-belief) as everyone else.
You are certainly free to believe whatever faith you want, and I celebrate that.

But faith is not strictly rational, although it has rational elements. My point was that the rational argument against homosexuality is now perceived to be weak. The religious argument of the faithful remains unchanged.

Your religious argument is based on accepting the premise that the Christian God exists and that the words of the Bible truly reflect divine law. This premise(s) is untestable and unverifiable, and to accept it is a weak rational act (It is an act of faith, not of reason).
 
You are certainly free to believe whatever faith you want, and I celebrate that.

But faith is not strictly rational, although it has rational elements. My point was that the rational argument against homosexuality is now perceived to be weak. The religious argument of the faithful remains unchanged.

Your religious argument is based on accepting the premise that the Christian God exists and that the words of the Bible truly reflect divine law. This premise(s) is untestable and unverifiable, and to accept it is a weak rational act (It is an act of faith, not of reason).
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine would disagree with you about faith and reason, but you’re correct that my position is based on the belief that God exists and that He has told us what is sinful and what is not.

So, as you say, the societal arguments can change, get better, stronger, whatever, but anyone expecting the Catholic position to ever change will be disappointed.
 
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine would disagree with you about faith and reason, but you’re correct that my position is based on the belief that God exists and that He has told us what is sinful and what is not.

So, as you say, the societal arguments can change, get better, stronger, whatever, but anyone expecting the Catholic position to ever change will be disappointed.
Who expects the Catholic position to change? I sure don’t.
 
Who expects the Catholic position to change? I sure don’t.
Oh, my lesbian former Catholic friends and some others who believe we will get enlightened one day and have women priests, etc. Mostly, people who don’t know much about Catholicism. Even when we do change, it takes hundreds of years! 😛
 
Oh, my lesbian former Catholic friends and some others who believe we will get enlightened one day and have women priests, etc. Mostly, people who don’t know much about Catholicism. Even when we do change, it takes hundreds of years! 😛
oh, well, on female ordination I think that the Church will have great pressure and that it will split over this. I give it 50 years.
 
Grace & Peace!

Forgive me for barging in, but I think we need to be very clear about what we’re talking about. What you’re saying, Cecilia, makes no sense in light of the Roman catechism. In fact, even the catechism agrees that we cannot control our sexuality, but we *can *control how we act upon it, how we express it.

As such, sexuality is construed as a given. It is not something that you turn on or off.
Where does it say in the catechism that people cannot control their sexuality, moreover, what has Science proven in order to objectify this?

Edit: I have read that female homosexuality for instance is not understood as being biological.
 
In another thread somebody articulated this sentence:

This I think sums up the Christian pro gay marriage argument quite well:
(1) Since science teaches that sexual orientation is an immutable human characteriestic…

My simple question is do you apply these statements to all sexual orientations that science says exist.
Be very, very careful when you cite “science”, as the following warns:
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts” – What is Science? by Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman … [Feynman’s essay is available online, but behind a subscription wall: *The Physics Teacher
[1969] volume 7, starting page 313.]

Immediately after his definition of science, Feynman wrote: “When someone says, ‘Science teaches such and such,’ he is using the word incorrectly. Science doesn’t teach anything; experience teaches it. If they say to you, ‘Science has shown such and such,’ you should ask, ‘How does science show it? How did the scientists find out? How? What? Where?’ It should not be ‘science has shown.’ And you have as much right as anyone else, upon hearing about the experiments [but be patient and listen to all the evidence] to judge whether a sensible conclusion has been arrived at.”

And I say, Amen. Notice that “you” is the average person. You have the right to hear the evidence, and you have the right to judge whether the evidence supports the conclusion. We now use the phrase “scientific consensus,” or “peer review,” rather than “science has shown.” By whatever name, the idea is balderdash. Feynman was absolutely correct.

When the attorney general of Virginia sued to force Michael Mann of “hockey stick” fame to provide the raw data he used, and the complete computer program used to analyze the data, so that “you” could decide, the Faculty Senate of the University of Virginia [where Mann was a professor at the time he defended the hockey stick] declared this request – Feynman’s request – to be an outrage. You peons, the Faculty Senate decreed, must simply accept the conclusions of any “scientific endeavor that has satisfied peer review standards.” …

According the Faculty Senate of the University of Virginia, “science,” and indeed “scholarship” in general, is no longer an attempt to establish truth by replicable experiment, or by looking at evidence that can be checked by anyone. “Truth” is now to be established by the decree of powerful authority, by “peer review.” Wasn’t the whole point of the Enlightenment to avoid exactly this?

Appeal to authority establishes nothing. “Experts” who claim otherwise are thereby showing themselves to be non-experts. The University of Virginia faculty members who supported this anti-science resolution have shown themselves to be unworthy to teach at an American university. They have shown themselves to have no understanding of the meaning of the word “scholarship.”

“The Difference between ‘True Science’ and ‘Cargo-Cult Science’”) by Frank J. Tipler, Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University
A few years ago, the American Psychiatric Association declared that homosexuality was no longer a mental disorder. So, we should ask, “How does science show it? How did the scientists find out? How? What? Where?” To be fair, we might even ask how the APA came to endorse the idea that homosexuality was a mental disorder in the first place and what convinced it that it no longer was? I highly suspect that since same-sex marriage is the current cause célèbre of academia, that they did it for political reasons, not scientific ones. IOW, “‘Truth’ is now to be established by the decree of powerful authority.”
 
I would never argue that homosexual relationships are all about sex, I understand that there are deep connections there. I have gay friends and I see their genuine affection for one another.

But God’s law is not a matter of our agreement with it, or our current societal norms. It does not change. Certain acts are sinful (yes, even if heterosexuals do them!) and I do not believe that a person can grow in grace while persisting in sin. This is the Catholic position.

CCC 1861 "Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "

…and the entire section on homosexuality and chastity, for those who have not read it and might be curious (emphasis mine):

"2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. **These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

Again, I’m not naive enough to think this makes everyone agree with me. My intention is to make a clear presentation of the Catholic belief.
And I thank you because there are some here who are distorting it. God bless.
 
Grace & Peace!
Where does it say in the catechism that people cannot control their sexuality, moreover, what has Science proven in order to objectify this?

Edit: I have read that female homosexuality for instance is not understood as being biological.
Josie, the catechism makes a distinction between what sexuality is and the ways in which it is expressed properly or improperly given that understanding of what sexuality is. Sexuality, then, is a given. It is a fact. It’s not something that’s controlled. It doesn’t ebb and flow. I don’t have more sexuality on Monday that I need to control and less on Friday so its easier to deal with. It’s a part of what we are as human beings. More specifically, it is the part from which our relational capacity springs.

It is more appropriate to speak of controlling sexual impulses or moderating sexual desire, but controlling sexuality makes no sense. The relevant passage from the catechism is:
2332 *Sexuality *affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
I would never argue that homosexual relationships are all about sex, I understand that there are deep connections there. I have gay friends and I see their genuine affection for one another.

But God’s law is not a matter of our agreement with it, or our current societal norms. It does not change. Certain acts are sinful (yes, even if heterosexuals do them!) and I do not believe that a person can grow in grace while persisting in sin. This is the Catholic position.
Cecilia, you must realize that that’s an unsatisfactory response. Here’s the issue–keep in mind we’re not talking about people having sex, but about people’s capacity to have loving, romantic relationships:

1: On the biology side: Either homosexuality is a naturally occurring minority variant of basic human sexuality or it is a disordered heterosexuality. Science suggests the former, Rome the latter.

2: On the ethical side: Either homosexual relationships are capable of nurturing virtue and human flourishing or they are not. Experience and observation suggest the former, Rome suggests the latter.

Regarding God’s law, I think we can safely assume that it would neither be contrary to nature, nor would it obstruct virtue. Insofar as we misapprehend nature, or insofar as we fail to recognize virtue, then it will be that much easier to ascribe our short-sightedness to God’s law when push comes to shove. Note that societal or cultural norms do not enter into the picture except insofar as they lead us to misconstrue nature and/or virtue.

Having said that, I realize that it works both ways. I realize as well that you are in a position with regard to what is authoritative and what is authority–a position particularly complicated for Roman Catholics–in which I do not find myself. I refer to the fact that neither scripture, nor tradition, are authorities in either of our communions, but that they are authoritative. (We can debate the ways in which they are authoritative, but I’ll leave that for another day.) Regading authority, however, the structure of your communion locates it almost exclusively in the magisterium. Naturally, therefore, a decree of the magisterium is the law of God and must be seen as such. For better or worse, authority in my communion is not so easily sourced (though it seems to be something like reason [understood as both the faculty with which the contents of scripture and tradition must be interpreted, as well as the evidence of experience, rationally understood, against which scripture and tradition must be interpreted] in relationship with the Church [the voice of which, in terms of my communion, must be understood to be one’s local / national church as the communion itself does not exercise local or national authority–influence is another matter altogether], if not the Church [hopefully informed by reason] exclusively).

A resort to an understanding of the Law of God reads to me, therefore, like an appeal to authority in order to actually dodge the questions/issues at hand. I understand that you will likely respect that I might have this reading, but will not find yourself in a position to respond to it, given your understanding of authority. I, in turn, have to respect that, though I may find it frustrating.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Science, and scientists, have been manipulated as individuals and as a group.

Here is what the Catholic Medical Association has to say:

narth.com/docs/hope.html

Here is an example of manipulation:

hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674047143

I also suggest people look up the term “engineering consent.” Sometimes, the truth is discarded to forward the goal of a social engineering experiment. Manipulating ‘public opinion’ is key to reaching that goal.

Know the truth, discard the opinions.

God bless,
Ed
 
Grace & Peace!

Cecilia, you must realize that that’s an unsatisfactory response. Here’s the issue–keep in mind we’re not talking about people having sex, but about people’s capacity to have loving, romantic relationships:

1: On the biology side: Either homosexuality is a naturally occurring minority variant of basic human sexuality or it is a disordered heterosexuality. Science suggests the former, Rome the latter.

2: On the ethical side: Either homosexual relationships are capable of nurturing virtue and human flourishing or they are not. Experience and observation suggest the former, Rome suggests the latter.

Regarding God’s law, I think we can safely assume that it would neither be contrary to nature, nor would it obstruct virtue. Insofar as we misapprehend nature, or insofar as we fail to recognize virtue, then it will be that much easier to ascribe our short-sightedness to God’s law when push comes to shove. Note that societal or cultural norms do not enter into the picture except insofar as they lead us to misconstrue nature and/or virtue.

Having said that, I realize that it works both ways. I realize as well that you are in a position with regard to what is authoritative and what is authority–a position particularly complicated for Roman Catholics–in which I do not find myself. I refer to the fact that neither scripture, nor tradition, are authorities in either of our communions, but that they are authoritative. (We can debate the ways in which they are authoritative, but I’ll leave that for another day.) Regading authority, however, the structure of your communion locates it almost exclusively in the magisterium. Naturally, therefore, a decree of the magisterium is the law of God and must be seen as such. For better or worse, authority in my communion is not so easily sourced (though it seems to be something like reason [understood as both the faculty with which the contents of scripture and tradition must be interpreted, as well as the evidence of experience, rationally understood, against which scripture and tradition must be interpreted] in relationship with the Church [the voice of which, in terms of my communion, must be understood to be one’s local / national church as the communion itself does not exercise local or national authority–influence is another matter altogether], if not the Church [hopefully informed by reason] exclusively).

A resort to an understanding of the Law of God reads to me, therefore, like an appeal to authority in order to actually dodge the questions/issues at hand. I understand that you will likely respect that I might have this reading, but will not find yourself in a position to respond to it, given your understanding of authority. I, in turn, have to respect that, though I may find it frustrating.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Friend, you have given very thurough insight into this issue. For Catholics it is the opinion of their magisterium which governs their belief concerning same sex marriage…they are bound by their religious convictions that the position of their church is God’s position since the church speaks for God on such matters.

You and I use scripture and tradition coupled with reason to assit in determining the will of God for our lives and how our sexuality is expressed.

I have found when science is in conflict with church belief…for those who believe in an authoritive “speaking for God” magisterium or as in the case with our Mormon brothers and sister the First Presidency and General Authorities…when the church rules on a matter…regarfless of science to the contrary…they are bound to accept “truth” as dictated by church.

Similarly those groups with a claimed “Bible based authority” tend to negate cultural norms and historical context in interpreting those passages which on the surface appear to condemn homosexuality as well as science.

I enjoyed your posts…well reasoned…clear…insighful and IMO correct.

Peace to you friend.
 
The constant 24/7 promotion of sexual activity
Yes, we’re well aware that the world is ending: moralizers have been crying it at just about every generation since time began.

Regardless, I’m not looking to take away your regressive beliefs. Please feel free to rail against the world and fruitlessly shout at the walls. Just keep your religious dogma out of laws.
Remember George Carlin and All Those Words You Can’t Say On Television? That’s right – you could not say those words.
Right…and you do recall that the point of Carlin’s routine was that it was stupid not to be able to say those words, don’t you? His argument is that the very idea of randomly selecting words and declaring them unfit for public use – when synonyms are perfectly fine to use – is utterly and completely ridiculous.

I do agree that comedy is in a pretty poor state. Comics like George Carlin actually used to make very interesting arguments.
It took 40 years to go from The Wonderful World of Disney to this.
That would be the same Walt Disney who was an anti-Semite Nazi-sympathizer, right?
 
Yes, we’re well aware that the world is ending: moralizers have been crying it at just about every generation since time began.

Regardless, I’m not looking to take away your regressive beliefs. Please feel free to rail against the world and fruitlessly shout at the walls. Just keep your religious dogma out of laws.

Right…and you do recall that the point of Carlin’s routine was that it was stupid not to be able to say those words, don’t you? His argument is that the very idea of randomly selecting words and declaring them unfit for public use – when synonyms are perfectly fine to use – is utterly and completely ridiculous.

I do agree that comedy is in a pretty poor state. Comics like George Carlin actually used to make very interesting arguments.

That would be the same Walt Disney who was an anti-Semite Nazi-sympathizer, right?
Your contribution is to play the anti-Semite and Nazi-sympathizer cards in the same post?

Why do you post here? Just to tell religious people to stay away from lawmaking?

God bless,
Ed
 
Yes, we’re well aware that the world is ending: moralizers have been crying it at just about every generation since time began.

Regardless, I’m not looking to take away your regressive beliefs. Please feel free to rail against the world and fruitlessly shout at the walls. Just keep your religious dogma out of laws.

Right…and you do recall that the point of Carlin’s routine was that it was stupid not to be able to say those words, don’t you? His argument is that the very idea of randomly selecting words and declaring them unfit for public use – when synonyms are perfectly fine to use – is utterly and completely ridiculous.

I do agree that comedy is in a pretty poor state. Comics like George Carlin actually used to make very interesting arguments.

That would be the same Walt Disney who was an anti-Semite Nazi-sympathizer, right?
I very much enjoyed George Carlin’s sense of humor. He was very “right on”. He was very pointed in his comments concerning our hypocricy when it came to words and attitudes.
 
Why same-sex marriage is unconstitutional and would be highly destructive of society

…Marriage is the constitutional construct creating a place for men in family and society.

…Same-sex marriage is a contradictory construct because it segregates by sex.

…Having deconstructed marriage to nothing more than an economic activity, feminists are now reconstructing it to realize their sexist political agenda.

…Where women have unilateral control over reproduction under Roe v. Wade, same-sex marriage and civil unions would have the effect of leaving men completely without standing in society.

…there is essentially no structural difference between same-sex marriage and “civil unions” as permitted in some jurisdictions. In both cases, women can segregate and form “super-families”[Note 1], and men can do nothing about it.

…“Super-families” would have six sources of income: the incomes of two married mothers, two sets of child-support orders, and two sets of welfare entitlements. Heterosexual marriages have only two incomes, and would clearly be an economically inferior choice.

…With a present divorce rate of over 50%, and approximately 25% of mothers being unmarried, we can predict that when word gets around the gossip networks, we will see a rush towards married two-mother households, with live-out boyfriends being relegated to stud duty.

…Deconstruction of fatherhood since 1960 has resulted in very large numbers of young men not becoming a part of society.

Note 1: Two-mother households with no fathers.

americandaily.com/article/20404

Also see companion article here newswithviews.com/Usher/david61.htm
 
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