A single Biblical passage to undermine all of mormonism.

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Chazemataz

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How do you Mormons refute this biblical passage. the way I see it, this one verse undermines all of Mormonism.

Isisah 43:10:
You are my witness, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I myslf am. Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none.
How do you Mormons reconcile this passage? You Mormons teach that God was once a man on another planet who was governed by another God who became a God. You teach that men may also become Gods. Well, before God there WERE NO OTHER GODS FORMED, AND AFTER HIM THERE SHALL BE NONE FORMED.
How will you Mormons work your way out of this one??
 
It seems to me they have the fail-safe position that the Bible is true, as interpreted by the LDS Church.

In other words, if they come across something they don’t like, they “interpret” it.

and if I recall correctly, there is a corollary, and that is that during the Great Apostasy, the Scriptures were tampered with, so what we have is not accurate.

Never mind that everything that has been found since Joseph held forth has pointed the other way…
 
Hmmm they say it is true as long as it is interpreted by the LDS Church? Well, what if the LDS Church came up with something very crazy like, say, Jesus was actually the member of a rock band called “The Son of God.”? Would that make it true? Of course not.
 
Undermine with this instead:
God wills all men to be saved, he wills all men to know and love him, this is the purpose of his entire creation, to know and to love, whether or not man knows the secret handshake. 😃
 
I looked up the translation of the Latter Day Saints Bible :

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

16 Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters

It says, in essence, the same thing???

:whacky: :banghead:
 
Try this:
Homily by Cardinal Ratzinger titled “The Meaning of the Biblical Creation Accounts-Creation and Worship”:
“But the Sabbath is in its turn the summing up of the Torah, the law of Israel. This means that worship has a moral aspect to it. God’s whole moral order has been taken up into it; only thus is it truly worship. To this must be added the fact that Torah, the law, is an expression of Israel’s history with God. It is an expression of God’s love, of his yes to the human being that he created, so that he could both love and receive love.
Now we grasp this notion better. We can say that God created the universe in order to inter into a history of love with humankind. He created it so that love could exist. Behind this lie words of Israel that lead directly to the New Testament. In Jewish literature it is said of Torah, which embodies the mystery of the covenant and of the history of God’s love for humankind, that it was in the beginning, that it was with God, that by it was made all that was made, and that it was the light and the life of humankind. John only needed to take these formulas and to apply them to him who is the living Word of God, saying that all things were made through him (cf. John 1:3). And even before him Paul had said:All things were created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16:cf Colossians 1:15-23). God created the universe in order to be able to become a human being and pour out his love upon us and to invite us to love him in return." **
From the fourth homily"In the Beginning…"
"The world religions are all aware of the profound idea that the universe exists for the sake of worship, but this idea is frequently misinterpreted to mean that in worship the human being gives something to the gods that they themselves stand in need of. It is thought that the divinity demands this attention on the part of human beings and that this worship has for its purpose the preservation of the world. Here, however, the possiblity lies open for manipulation. The human being can now say: The gods need me and so I can put pressure on them and, if I must, force them. Out of the pure relationship of love, which is what worship is supposed to be, there develops the manipulative attempt to sieze control of the world, and thus worship can lead to a debasing of the world and the human person." ** What Ratzinger is talking about here is the Creation account and how it relates to modern technology and evolution. I, though, on the other hand, thought it gave a fine example of what the Holy Mother was NOT, and actually defines Original Sin in a way that modern man can see the stark contrast between Mary and the world today. Mary was not manipulative in the least, she displayed, as well as Joseph, no desire to sieze control of anyone or anything. She was utterly yielding to God and she is quite unique in this. And from this one can actually make the statement that she is the Immaculate Conception, just from this alone, simply because I do not know anyone, especially Mormon, with such a perfect “yes” to God.
 
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Chazemataz:
How do you Mormons refute this biblical passage. the way I see it, this one verse undermines all of Mormonism.

Isisah 43:10:
You are my witness, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I myslf am. Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none.
How do you Mormons reconcile this passage? You Mormons teach that God was once a man on another planet who was governed by another God who became a God. You teach that men may also become Gods. Well, before God there WERE NO OTHER GODS FORMED, AND AFTER HIM THERE SHALL BE NONE FORMED.
How will you Mormons work your way out of this one??
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I once gave this verse to a Mormon aquaintance of mine. About a week later he sent me an article stating that this verse is only talking about the God of Israel. I told him that there is no way you could draw that conclusion from the passage; I never heard from him again (I think his Bishop told him to avoid my “negative” influence).
 
Casen? Asa Ben Juda? Where are you guys?? I am interested in seeing what you have to say about this.
 
I guess mormons CANT work their way out of this one. therefore mormonism is a false religion.
 
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otm:
…and if I recall correctly, there is a corollary, and that is that during the Great Apostasy, the Scriptures were tampered with, so what we have is not accurate.

Never mind that everything that has been found since Joseph held forth has pointed the other way…
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The modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Copper Scroll which contains the entire book of Isaiah, puts the final nail in the coffin of the LDS lie that the bible was corrupted. The Copper Scroll’s Isaiah (from circa 140 BC) is exactly the Isaiah we have now. No corruption, no deletions, no additions, no “plain and precious parts” missing.

R.I.P. Mormon Church
 
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PaulDupre:
The modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Copper Scroll which contains the entire book of Isaiah, puts the final nail in the coffin of the LDS lie that the bible was corrupted. The Copper Scroll’s Isaiah (from circa 140 BC) is exactly the Isaiah we have now. No corruption, no deletions, no additions, no “plain and precious parts” missing.

R.I.P. Mormon Church
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The LDS church will just get a new revelation that the Great Apostacy of Christ’s Church occurred 2 centuries prior to the birth of Jesus.
 
Chazemataz said:
How do you Mormons refute this biblical passage. the way I see it, this one verse undermines all of Mormonism.
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We don’t refute this passage. Why would it undermine all of Mormonism?
Isisah 43:10:
You are my witness, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I myslf am. Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none.
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How do you Mormons reconcile this passage?
To start things off what does this passage mean to you?
You Mormons teach that God was once a man on another planet who was governed by another God who became a God.
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We don’t know too much about this, except for a few statements that were made. There isn’t’ much to teach. More is taught and speculated about this subject by anti Mormon authors than by us.
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The Doctrine & Covenants states:
Code: 
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22)
Isaiah 43:10
…Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none…

How is this not a contradiction. D&C is part of you scripture so it cannot be dismissed as speculation
 
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PaulDupre:
The modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Copper Scroll which contains the entire book of Isaiah, puts the final nail in the coffin of the LDS lie that the bible was corrupted. The Copper Scroll’s Isaiah (from circa 140 BC) is exactly the Isaiah we have now. No corruption, no deletions, no additions, no “plain and precious parts” missing.
Click to expand...
Refresh my memory what do we say about Isaiah?
 
Paul G:
We don’t know too much about this, except for a few statements that were made. There isn’t’ much to teach. More is taught and speculated about this subject by anti Mormon authors than by us.
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Joseph Smith seemed to know a lot about this:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. …I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,…
Code: 
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6).
So did Brigham Young:
“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being” (Deseret News, Nov.16, 1859, p.290).

So did Joseph Feilding Smith:
“Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).

So did Bruce McConkie:
“The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64)

Seems to me that Mormons teach about God being at one time a mortal, finite man all the time.
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arieh0310:
How is this not a contradiction. D&C is part of you scripture so it cannot be dismissed as speculation
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Thanks Arieh

I don’t think we need to speculate, D&C 132, makes it pretty clear as to what Heavenly Father has in mind for us. However, Isaiah 43 I believe is relating to another issue. Perhaps you can tell me what you believe this passage is saying. Then I can respond better to your question.

Paul
 
Paul G:
Thanks Arieh

I don’t think we need to speculate, D&C 132, makes it pretty clear as to what Heavenly Father has in mind for us. However, Isaiah 43 I believe is relating to another issue. Perhaps you can tell me what you believe this passage is saying. Then I can respond better to your question.

Paul
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What the passage is saying is exactly what is on the surface of the text. Let me post the scripture again:

Isaiah 43:10:
“You are my witness, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I myslf am. Before me there was no God formed: and after me there shall be none.”

Isaiah also drills it home with:
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isa. 44:6&8

“To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?..for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isa. 46:5&9

“I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another.” Isa. 42:8

God also acted alone in creating the universe:
“I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.” Isa. 44:24

“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” Psa. 33:6

“Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all.” Neh. 9:6

And God has always been God:
“Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?” Hab. 1:12

“For I am the Lord, I change not.” Mal. 3:6

“…from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psa. 90:2

“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.” Num. 23:19

“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,…who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.” Rom. 1:22-25

What Scripture, Tradition, and Church history has consistently and unwaveringly taught is:
  1. God is eternal
  2. There is only one God of all creation
  3. God has always been God
  4. Even in our glorified, resurrected bodies we will never be like God or a God.
We are sons of God by adoption through Jesus Christ and will worship the one true God for all eternity. We will not populate our own planet by getting it on with our godess concubines.
 
I would also note the importance of the book of Isaiah. Jesus himself said “great are the words of Isaiah” in both the bible AND the Book of Mormon.

Apparently this is something that Jesus wants us to learn thoroughly.

I find it a sign of cognitive dissonance that the BoM appears to agree with the biblical view that God is the only deity and has always been the only God and will akways be the only God…yet the D&C and “modern prophets” in essence claim that God is an exalted man and someday, if you do the right things, you could be one too. (although Gordon Hinckley waffled on this when he was publicly interviewed)
 
paul will continue to play ignorant, begging the question to try to stretch out this obvious text into something it is not.
 
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