A step toward war

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Seamus_L said:
Countries that have nuclear weapons (in my opinion) have no right to tell other countries that they cannot have them. That is my answer.
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Its not that “countries that have nuclear weapons are telling other countries they can’t have them”, its that nations sign the NPT to receive international assistance developing nuclear power, and then use that technology to create weapons.

You do realize that the NPT is set up to benefit the country who disavows nuclear weapons? They receive technological support for creating peaceful programs. It also set a precedent that the nuclear powers at that time would not transfer the weapons technology to non-nuclear states.

No one forces any state to sign the NPT (India, Pakistan, and Israel come to mind), but why should that a nation would take the international help attaining nuclear energy (see Article IV, Section 2 of the NPT) and agree not to develop nuclear weapons not be held to account?

It seems hypocritical to me that you should claim “No one should have nuclear weapons”, only to slam the only treaty that has acted as a nuclear deterrent, and caused at least one nuclear power (S. Africa) to disarm, completely.

Because it’s that horrible hegemon of the US picking on the rest of the world. :crying:
 
scipio337 said:
Its not that “countries that have nuclear weapons are telling other countries they can’t have them”, its that nations sign the NPT to receive international assistance developing nuclear power, and then use that technology to create weapons.

You do realize that the NPT is set up to benefit the country who disavows nuclear weapons? They receive technological support for creating peaceful programs. It also set a precedent that the nuclear powers at that time would not transfer the weapons technology to non-nuclear states.

No one forces any state to sign the NPT (India, Pakistan, and Israel come to mind), but why should that a nation would take the international help attaining nuclear energy (see Article IV, Section 2 of the NPT) and agree not to develop nuclear weapons not be held to account?

It seems hypocritical to me that you should claim “No one should have nuclear weapons”, only to slam the only treaty that has acted as a nuclear deterrent, and caused at least one nuclear power (S. Africa) to disarm, completely.
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The NPT is probably the most useless treaty of all time. Not only have nations such as the United States, France, Russia, and China violated its terms by assisting other nations with their nuclear ambitions and practically giving nukes away but Article X allows all signatories to drop out of the treaty whenever they want to. You are correct that no one forces any State to sign the NPT but no one enforces it when it comes to the existing nuclear powers either. Certainly you can see the hypocrisy in condemning Iran, as a signatory of the NPT, for its nuclear ambitions while the NATO member States play musical nukes.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
The NPT is probably the most useless treaty of all time. Not only have nations such as the United States, France, Russia, and China violated its terms by assisting other nations with their nuclear ambitions and practically giving nukes away but Article X allows all signatories to drop out of the treaty whenever they want to. You are correct that no one forces any State to sign the NPT but no one enforces it when it comes to the existing nuclear powers either. Certainly you can see the hypocrisy in condemning Iran, as a signatory of the NPT, for its nuclear ambitions while the NATO member States play musical nukes.
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Nuclear weapons are shared with NATO members, but outside of the ones you mention, and the 3 non NPT treaty signators, no once else has nuclear weapons.

So what nuclear power has the US, France, Russia, or China helped to obtain nukes?

Answer: none.
 
scipio337 said:
Nuclear weapons are shared with NATO members, but outside of the ones you mention, and the 3 non NPT treaty signators, no once else has nuclear weapons. So what nuclear power has the US, France, Russia, or China helped to obtain nukes?
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The United States has provided nuclear weapons to Turkey, Greece, Belgium, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands under the NATO nuclear sharing program which is a clear violation of Articles I and II of the NPT. BTW - there are 4 nations known to have nuclear weapons who aren’t party to the NPT: Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, and India.
scipio337 said:
So what nuclear power has the US, France, Russia, or China helped to obtain nukes?
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  1. Libya’s nuclear weapon’s program was based entirely on the expertise of Abdul Qadeer Khan, design schematics from China, parts from Pakistan, and uranium hexafluoride from North Korea.
  2. The Dimona nuclear facility in Israel was constructed and supplied by France to have the sole purpose of producing weapons-grade plutonium.
  3. China provided Pakistan with design schematics and reference materials for the construction of nuclear warheads and provided a nuclear reactor.
etc etc
 
, IAEA chief "alerts world"Powers pressure Iran

(Reuters) - Major powers closed ranks on Thursday to increase pressure on Iran to address fears about its atomic ambitions, and the U.N. nuclear chief said it was his duty to “alert the world” about suspected Iranian efforts to develop atom bombs.
The six powers involved in diplomacy on Iran – the United States, Russia, China, France, Britain and Germany – overcame divisions exposed by a hard-hitting U.N. nuclear report on Iran last week and presented a united front towards Tehran.
They hammered out a joint resolution in intense negotiations and submitted it to the 35-nation board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), a Vienna-based U.N. body, which is expected to debate and vote on it on Friday.
But it will not satisfy those in the West and in Israel, Iran’s arch-enemy, who had hoped IAEA head Yukiya Amano’s document would trigger concrete international action to rein in Tehran, such as an IAEA referral of its case to the U.N. Security Council.
 
With New Sanctions Next WeekNew Details: US Preparing to Hit Iran

The Obama administration is preparing to levy new sanctions on Iran next week, three U.S. officials tell ABC News.
The new measures are in response to the latest report by the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog, which found that Iran has been developing the technology needed to produce nuclear weapons.
The officials say the new steps by the State Department and Treasury Department would close gaps in existing authorities that will further restrict Iran’s energy and financial sectors, as well as add more entities to sanctions lists.
Specifically, officials say, the new sanctions are meant to target efforts by Iran to get around existing sanctions that have already made it harder for its energy and financial sectors to operate.
Sanctions on Iran’s Central Bank and bans on Iran’s oil and gas sector, measures that could cripple Iran’s economy but could lead to a spike in oil prices, will not be included in this latest round, according to one official.
 
scipio337 said:
Sanctions. Convince Russia and China to isolate Iran.
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Let’s say I have the power to sanction your posts here. What would you do? Wouldn’t you make up a new name, fight the sanction, everything you could to get around the blockade? Wouldn’t you be even less likely to cooperate? Wouldn’t you dig in your heals and thumb your nose?

Why should Iran bow to pressure when the U.S refuses to deal with the nuclear threat from Israel, and the U.S. continues to support wiping Palestine off the face of the Earth?

Sanctions only make matters worse. Sanctions involve no reconciliation, nor acknowledgment of legitimate concerns on both sides of the table. Our foreign policy is simply not a Christian approach in the Middle East. We do nothing like “do unto others”. We make no effort to love our enemies. We do not encourage forgiveness. We do not use an even-handed approach, and for that reason, we will always be at war with Israel’s enemies. This is not to say that Israel is unified behind settlements and the hawkish approach toward Iran. There are plenty of Israelis that support a different approach, and most Jewish Americans do not support military solutions in the Middle East.

The answer still lies in honest diplomacy from parties willing to put everything on the table for resolution, not just issues such as Iranian nukes.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
And yet, Israel is the villain and the biggest threat to peace and the instigator of war, according to some.
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If Israel has the atomic bomb and the others don’t, wouldn’t that put Israel at an advantage?
 
OneSheep said:
Let’s say I have the power to sanction your posts here. What would you do? Wouldn’t you make up a new name, fight the sanction, everything you could to get around the blockade? Wouldn’t you be even less likely to cooperate? Wouldn’t you dig in your heals and thumb your nose?
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I’m not sure what you mean. Without material, centrifuges, etc, from Russia, the Iranian program stops in its tracks.
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OneSheep:
Why should Iran bow to pressure when the U.S refuses to deal with the nuclear threat from Israel, and the U.S. continues to support wiping Palestine off the face of the Earth?
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Maybe because Israel is non-signor to the NPT? Did you see a different policy approach with N Korea’s program, and say, Pakistans?

The rest is a useless appeal to emotion fallacy. “Palestine” never existed on a map. It was a backwater Ottoman vilayet for 400 years, and no one seemed to care. A territory of Egypt/Jordan, and no one seemed to care.
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OneSheep:
Sanctions only make matters worse. Sanctions involve no reconciliation, nor acknowledgment of legitimate concerns on both sides of the table. Our foreign policy is simply not a Christian approach in the Middle East. We do nothing like “do unto others”. We make no effort to love our enemies. We do not encourage forgiveness. We do not use an even-handed approach, and for that reason, we will always be at war with Israel’s enemies. This is not to say that Israel is unified behind settlements and the hawkish approach toward Iran. There are plenty of Israelis that support a different approach, and most Jewish Americans do not support military solutions in the Middle East.
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You don’t like Israel. We get it.

What’s your solution to Iran’s program? Send Sean Penn to give Khamenei a big hug?
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OneSheep:
The answer still lies in honest diplomacy from parties willing to put everything on the table for resolution, not just issues such as Iranian nukes.
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So how is Israel part of the solution of Iran’s nuclear program?
 
scipio337 said:
The rest is a useless appeal to emotion fallacy. “Palestine” never existed on a map. It was a backwater Ottoman vilayet for 400 years, and no one seemed to care. A territory of Egypt/Jordan, and no one seemed to care.
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Agreed.

If they are going to “give it back” Turkey should get it. It was ruled by the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires for nearly 2000 years.
 
SamH said:
Agreed.

If they are going to “give it back” Turkey should get it. It was ruled by the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires for nearly 2000 years.
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Well, you’d have to overturn the Treaty of Lausanne to do that.

It was under one colonial power or another for that entire time. The problems in the area are not unique in the area. You see the same pattern with any post-colonial collapse, and the formation of new states. See the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey. Or the fall of the British Raj, and the formation of modern Pakistan and India.

The formation of Pakistan and India is almost an exact replica of the Israel/Palestine issue.

If only the UN Mandate had been accepted by all sides, or Palestinian Arab refugees had been treated with greater dignity by the Israelis AND their Arab neighbors (as other countries did in other population exchanges), the world could have avoided decades of bloodshed.
 
scipio337 said:
I’m not sure what you mean. Without material, centrifuges, etc, from Russia, the Iranian program stops in its tracks.

Maybe because Israel is non-signor to the NPT? Did you see a different policy approach with N Korea’s program, and say, Pakistans?

The rest is a useless appeal to emotion fallacy. “Palestine” never existed on a map. It was a backwater Ottoman vilayet for 400 years, and no one seemed to care. A territory of Egypt/Jordan, and no one seemed to care.

You don’t like Israel. We get it.

What’s your solution to Iran’s program? Send Sean Penn to give Khamenei a big hug?
So how is Israel part of the solution of Iran’s nuclear program?
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I am saying that sanctions do not solve the problem, only delay it. Regardless about what you say about the “nation” of Palestine, which most countries in the world accept, (representing something like 75% of the world’s population) there are non-Israelis having their land taken and homes torn down. This is a crime.

I never said I didn’t like Israel. I disagree wholeheartedly with their land and resource confiscation. I don’t like a lot of things our government, the Iranian government, and plenty of others do too.

The solution to the Iran situation is to work with Israel and get them to stop taking land from Palestinians, give up the settlements on confiscated land, and end the occupation. In return, aggression from the Palestinians must stop, and Iran must discontinue its nuclear program. Iran would probably not agree to this without some non-aggression pact with Israel.

None of this will occur unless forgiveness happens.

A Christian foreign policy would be based on forgiveness and reconciliation. This is not my idea, it is Jesus’ idea.
 
OneSheep said:
The solution to the Iran situation is to work with Israel and get them to stop taking land from Palestinians, give up the settlements on confiscated land, and end the occupation. In return, aggression from the Palestinians must stop, and Iran must discontinue its nuclear program. Iran would probably not agree to this without some non-aggression pact with Israel.

None of this will occur unless forgiveness happens.
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Just curious what land has Israel taken from anyone in the last 37 years? How much land has Israel given up?
 
SamH said:
Just curious what land has Israel taken from anyone in the last 37 years? How much land has Israel given up?
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I don’t know the statistics. The building of the wall confiscated a lot of Palestinian land. Currently, Israel is taking land and homes from people in East Jerusalem. Jewish Voice for Peace has a lot of information, and links from their website, I think.

jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
 
OneSheep said:
I am saying that sanctions do not solve the problem, only delay it. Regardless about what you say about the “nation” of Palestine, which most countries in the world accept, (representing something like 75% of the world’s population) there are non-Israelis having their land taken and homes torn down. This is a crime.

I never said I didn’t like Israel. I disagree wholeheartedly with their land and resource confiscation. I don’t like a lot of things our government, the Iranian government, and plenty of others do too.

The solution to the Iran situation is to work with Israel and get them to stop taking land from Palestinians, give up the settlements on confiscated land, and end the occupation. In return, aggression from the Palestinians must stop, and Iran must discontinue its nuclear program. Iran would probably not agree to this without some non-aggression pact with Israel.

None of this will occur unless forgiveness happens.

A Christian foreign policy would be based on forgiveness and reconciliation. This is not my idea, it is Jesus’ idea.
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Forgiveness of what? Iran taking hostages?

Although an admirable trait, I’m not sure how “forgiveness” plays into the role of international politics, especially on the topic at hand.
 
Good afternoon, all,

How is it? On different threads about the Near and Mid East, some how the topic of Israel and Palestine hi-jacks the OP.

The OP is about the US and Iran.

I’ve read all three pages.

My (name removed by moderator)ut is simple. Pray for peace in that region, give it to God, and don’t complain about how long He takes to answer our prayers. Imho, this is how Christianity is applied to that region. And, both Israel and Gaza benefit.

I commend this approach because God’s answer makes prayer work.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don
 
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