A step toward war

[Monte_RCMS]

I don’t know the statistics. The building of the wall confiscated a lot of Palestinian land. Currently, Israel is taking land and homes from people in East Jerusalem. Jewish Voice for Peace has a lot of information, and links from their website, I think.

jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

On the other hand, the wall did stop a LOT of the bomb planting and other terrorist acts.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

This thread is wandering, please return to the topic of the original post.

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, all,

We could always pray for the conversion of Iran, as a matter of fact.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[1voice]

I’m new to this forum, but I am interested in reactions to HR 1905, the Iran Threat Reduction Act, which is not being mentioned in the mainstream media I’ve seen.

This act apparently bars any US government official from contacting any Iranian government official, including any member of the Defense department or State dept. Of course, the more hawkish Israeli lobbyists are likely pushing for this, and it is “election season” so the money flows freely.

I am more than a little concerned about this. Congress is overwhelmingly in favor of this bill, as they always put huge support behind any bill that supports Israel, regardless of the behavior of the Israeli government’s actions against human rights, confiscation of land, etc. This thread is not about Israel’s right to do what they do, however, they are understandably justified in their own minds that what they do is right, as are the Palestinians.

Israel is a threat to Iran. No doubt, Israeli nuclear weapons are aimed squarely at population centers in Iran, and the Iranian leaders probably want a nuclear weapon as a deterrent (if nothing else), even though they say they don’t want to build one. In the past Iran has called for a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, but it has fallen on deaf ears in the US. The “Iran threat”, as was the “Iraq threat”, is not a matter of US national security, it is a matter of Israeli security. Why do we keep putting our own soldiers in harms way?

It seems to me that the more Christian approach to the problem is to first forgive all those involved (assuming people resent one side or the other) and then to work towards reconciliation between the two nations. We cannot do this with this congressional act, it severely, in an unprecedented way, ties the hands of our executive branch. There is big money (the West Bank Real Estate lobby) pushing us into bombing Iran, and this is clearly a step in that direction.

Reactions?

Israel is a proven ally of the US. It is the most stable Democracy (perhaps the only stable democracy) in the Mid East. It has proven, with a 50+ year track record, that it can and will use nuclear capability with wisdom and restraint. Iran says one thing and does another … as a way of life.

 

[louis91766]

Israel is a proven ally of the US. It is the most stable Democracy (perhaps the only stable democracy) in the Mid East. It has proven, with a 50+ year track record, that it can and will use nuclear capability with wisdom and restraint. Iran says one thing and does another … as a way of life.

The problem I see with Israel concerns its intolerance toward Christians. For example, I don’t think it is very friendly for Jews to go around spitting in the face of Catholic or Orthodox priests. See:
ww4report.com/node/1046
eutimes.net/2009/12/christians-in-jerusalem-want-jews-to-stop-spitting-on-them/
religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2401/holy_spit%3A_why_do_ultra-orthodox_jews_spit_at_christians/
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2397730/posts
guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/17/religion.israel
abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread525575/pg1

 

[1voice]

The problem I see with Israel concerns its intolerance toward Christians. For example, I don’t think it is very friendly for Jews to go around spitting in the face of Catholic or Orthodox priests. See:
ww4report.com/node/1046
eutimes.net/2009/12/christians-in-jerusalem-want-jews-to-stop-spitting-on-them/
religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2401/holy_spit%3A_why_do_ultra-orthodox_jews_spit_at_christians/
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2397730/posts
guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/17/religion.israel
abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread525575/pg1

… Obviously it is disgusting… but the title of this topic is “A step toward war”. … I dont think that your concern quite rises to that level… although I did read in one of your posts that the Jews doing the spitting( a small minority) do have the presence of mind not to spit on the Muslims … because they realize the firestorm that would erupt the city.
Jesus taught to turn the other cheek … Mohammed on the other hand … said to separate it from the rest of the person’s body.

I read this in one of the articles you posted.
Sounds to me like the Christian community needs to do some soul searching as well.
Perhaps they reap what they sow …
“Jerusalem has always been a city of conflict. Even the old Christian churches - the Armenian, Orthodox, Coptic, Syrian, Ethiopian and Catholic - are known for their disputes, which regularly result in brawls.”

…

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread is wandering, please stay on the topic of the original post

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, all,

There’s a good chance the Senate won’t pass the Hr 1905 Iran Threat Reduction Act.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[gilliam]

Good morning, all,

There’s a good chance the Senate won’t pass the Hr 1905 Iran Threat Reduction Act.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

This it? govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1905

If so, it hasn’t passed the House yet either.

Here is the bill: thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.1905:

I don’t see where it stops the US government from engaging in diplomacy, note we already don’t have diplomatic relations with Iran.

 

[chosen_people]

The problem I see with Israel concerns its intolerance toward Christians. For example, I don’t think it is very friendly for Jews to go around spitting in the face of Catholic or Orthodox priests. See:
ww4report.com/node/1046
eutimes.net/2009/12/christians-in-jerusalem-want-jews-to-stop-spitting-on-them/
religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2401/holy_spit%3A_why_do_ultra-orthodox_jews_spit_at_christians/
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2397730/posts
guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/17/religion.israel
abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread525575/pg1

Well of course neither Jews nor Judaism advocates this type of behaviour. To do so in Israel is a crime. These acts are being committed by a small group of marginal individuals. What you forgot to emphasize was that when a Armenian seminarian wearing Church robes assaulted an Ultra Orthodox Jew who spat some four meters from him, the Israeli court quashed the charges against the Armenian Christian.

By the way the Israeli Judge who quashed the indictment spent his early childhood away from Israel in the 1960’s. He and his brother attended an old established WASP private school. They were the first Jewish pupils to attend the school openly and proudly as Jews and suffered horrendous and daily anti-Semitism. The same Judge did five reserve tours in Southern Lebanon during the first Israel - Lebanon war between 1982 - 1985, helping to give physical protection and medical services to the Christian population which were, until Israeli intervention, being massacred by Arafat and the P.L.O.

Two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism didn’t lead the lead the Jewish State of Israel in anyway from Judaism. Israel did not seek redress for the acts against Jews and Judaism but established a country of tolerance and respect for all religions, with freedom of worship and freedom to practice religon for all faiths.

 

[donsnow]

Well of course neither Jews nor Judaism advocates this type of behaviour. To do so in Israel is a crime. These acts are being committed by a small group of marginal individuals. What you forgot to emphasize was that when a Armenian seminarian wearing Church robes assaulted an Ultra Orthodox Jew who spat some four meters from him, the Israeli court quashed the charges against the Armenian Christian.

By the way the Israeli Judge who quashed the indictment spent his early childhood away from Israel in the 1960’s. He and his brother attended an old established WASP private school. They were the first Jewish pupils to attend the school openly and proudly as Jews and suffered horrendous and daily anti-Semitism. The same Judge did five reserve tours in Southern Lebanon during the first Israel - Lebanon war between 1982 - 1985, helping to give physical protection and medical services to the Christian population which were, until Israeli intervention, being massacred by Arafat and the P.L.O.

Two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism didn’t lead the lead the Jewish State of Israel in anyway from Judaism. Israel did not seek redress for the acts against Jews and Judaism but established a country of tolerance and respect for all religions, with freedom of worship and freedom to practice religon for all faiths.

Good morning, chosen people,

Although I agree with the gist of your post, it’s still wandering from the OP.

God loves you,
Don

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I’m new to this forum, but I am interested in reactions to HR 1905, the Iran Threat Reduction Act, which is not being mentioned in the mainstream media I’ve seen.

This act apparently bars any US government official from contacting any Iranian government official, including any member of the Defense department or State dept. Of course, the more hawkish Israeli lobbyists are likely pushing for this, and it is “election season” so the money flows freely.

I am more than a little concerned about this. Congress is overwhelmingly in favor of this bill, as they always put huge support behind any bill that supports Israel, regardless of the behavior of the Israeli government’s actions against human rights, confiscation of land, etc. This thread is not about Israel’s right to do what they do, however, they are understandably justified in their own minds that what they do is right, as are the Palestinians.

Israel is a threat to Iran. No doubt, Israeli nuclear weapons are aimed squarely at population centers in Iran, and the Iranian leaders probably want a nuclear weapon as a deterrent (if nothing else), even though they say they don’t want to build one. In the past Iran has called for a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, but it has fallen on deaf ears in the US. The “Iran threat”, as was the “Iraq threat”, is not a matter of US national security, it is a matter of Israeli security. Why do we keep putting our own soldiers in harms way?

It seems to me that the more Christian approach to the problem is to first forgive all those involved (assuming people resent one side or the other) and then to work towards reconciliation between the two nations. We cannot do this with this congressional act, it severely, in an unprecedented way, ties the hands of our executive branch. There is big money (the West Bank Real Estate lobby) pushing us into bombing Iran, and this is clearly a step in that direction.

Reactions?

Well, back on topic.

The leadership of the Iranian government has stated it wants to wipe out Israel. [The OP hopes for reconciliation … how do you do that when the Iranian government wants to wipe out Isreal?]

Israel has had nuclear weapons for decades and could have wiped out Iran, but has not done so.

Israel has several submarines equipped with nuclear tipped cruise missiles. What some call the “Samson option”. If Israel disappears in a mushroom cloud, then ???

The OP states that Israel is targeting Iran’s population centers. [How does the OP know that for a fact?]

The Iraq threat was different from the Iran threat.

 

[chosen_people]

Good morning, chosen people,

Although I agree with the gist of your post, it’s still wandering from the OP.

God loves you,
Don

The OP is quite clear and indeed what is there to discuss? According to his post the Jewish Zionist lobby controls the American government and all political funding, there is apparently symetry between the the open democratic liberal country of Israel and the radical fundamentalist Islamic country of Iran which calls for Israel’s destruction and refers to America as the Big Satan (Israel is the little Satan), the Jews are stealing land and carrying out ethnic cleansing in Judea and Samaria (a.k.a the “West BanK”) which should be free of and off limits to any and all Jews. Did I miss something?

 

[scipio337]

The OP is quite clear and indeed what is there to discuss? According to his post the Jewish Zionist lobby controls the American government and all political funding, there is apparently symetry between the the open democratic liberal country of Israel and the radical fundamentalist Islamic country of Iran which calls for Israel’s destruction and refers to America as the Big Satan (Israel is the little Satan), the Jews are stealing land and carrying out ethnic cleansing in Judea and Samaria (a.k.a the “West BanK”) which should be free of and off limits to any and all Jews. Did I miss something?

Whenever someone makes the claim “Anti-Zionism isn’t Anti-Semitism”, I’m reminded how closely the first argument resembles Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

The National Association of Realtors spends 10x more on lobbying than AIPAC, yet there are no conspiricies that perfidious realtors are controlling US policy, and are bent on world domination.

 

[OneSheep]

Whenever someone makes the claim “Anti-Zionism isn’t Anti-Semitism”, I’m reminded how closely the first argument resembles Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

The National Association of Realtors spends 10x more on lobbying than AIPAC, yet there are no conspiricies that perfidious realtors are controlling US policy, and are bent on world domination.

Before AIPAC divided up into many local organizations, it was number 2 in the U.S., after AARP. There are now many separate lobbies now that push for Israeli expansion into the West Bank. AIPAC is not the largest, and there are many informal groups that lobby too, not to mention individuals that donate to campaigns. Check it out:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States

All of these supporters are good, well-meaning people, but they simply have too much power, and they do not represent the majority of Jewish-Americans. Simply put, there is much more money in West Bank real estate than there is in peace. This is why our congress bends over backwards to make Israel happy and do things like stifling our own diplomacy with Iran in order to please Israeli hawks. I have spoken to our local congressman, who says that the pro-Israeli lobby is intense. (I prefer saying “West Bank Real Estate Lobby”, since it reflects the money’s purpose)

 

[colmywaykurtz]

since it had no ability to aim a missile at anyone until about 2008 – years after Iran already had missiles and had begun violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (signatory 1968) by seeking to develop nuclear weapons. Until recently, Israel could only deliver a bomb by airplaneQUOTE

This is actually not accurate. Israel’s Jericho II ballistic missiles have had a capability of hitting targets as far 5000 kilometers distant since the mid-1980s. The shorter-range Jericho I’s have been in operation since 1971—when the Shah was still in power in Iran. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel#Missiles

 

[donsnow]

The OP is quite clear and indeed what is there to discuss? According to his post the Jewish Zionist lobby controls the American government and all political funding, there is apparently symetry between the the open democratic liberal country of Israel and the radical fundamentalist Islamic country of Iran which calls for Israel’s destruction and refers to America as the Big Satan (Israel is the little Satan), the Jews are stealing land and carrying out ethnic cleansing in Judea and Samaria (a.k.a the “West BanK”) which should be free of and off limits to any and all Jews. Did I miss something?

Good afternoon, chosen people,

Well, I think that adding "…the Jews are stealing land and carrying out ethnic cleansing in Judea and Samaria (a.k.a. the “West Bank"0 which should be fee of and off limits to any and all Jews. Did I miss something?”, strays from the OP and are your personal opinions. So, yes, I think you missed that you added to the OP and strayed from it.

God loves you,
Don

 

[scipio337]

Before AIPAC divided up into many local organizations, it was number 2 in the U.S., after AARP. There are now many separate lobbies now that push for Israeli expansion into the West Bank. AIPAC is not the largest, and there are many informal groups that lobby too, not to mention individuals that donate to campaigns. Check it out:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States

All of these supporters are good, well-meaning people, but they simply have too much power, and they do not represent the majority of Jewish-Americans. Simply put, there is much more money in West Bank real estate than there is in peace. This is why our congress bends over backwards to make Israel happy and do things like stifling our own diplomacy with Iran in order to please Israeli hawks. I have spoken to our local congressman, who says that the pro-Israeli lobby is intense. (I prefer saying “West Bank Real Estate Lobby”, since it reflects the money’s purpose)

Thank you for the information. Was there anything in your link that supported your claim that AIPAC was #2 “after AARP”.

And I still stand behind that statement, as the wiki article points out, there are few conspiracies regarding “undue influence” or “control of the US government” regarding AARP or the NRA.

I did find it interesting that the issue was brought up during last nights debate. Even Rep Ron Paul stated, as far as a US strike against Iran, it is NOT going to happen.

 

[gilliam]

The region is unstable

Sanctions are not going to work as long as Russia and China oppose them and time is running out.

It is looking more and more like Assad has to be toppled either by the US or preferably by Turkey and the Arab States. That may give the US and Israel some leverage with Iran. Although Iran is not likely to stop developing a bomb with the immanent loss of their Syrian ally and the corresponding necessity of their taking over Lebanon. Also note Iran is becoming the dominant force in Iraq and there have been a number of trouble spots elsewhere in the middle east caused by Shiite uprisings.

War may be the only option and it may end up that Israel starts it

 

[Nelka]

The region is unstable

Sanctions are not going to work as long as Russia and China oppose them and time is running out.

It is looking more and more like Assad has to be toppled either by the US or preferably by Turkey and the Arab States. That may give the US and Israel some leverage with Iran. Although Iran is not likely to stop developing a bomb with the immanent loss of their Syrian ally and the corresponding necessity of their taking over Lebanon. Also note Iran is becoming the dominant force in Iraq and there have been a number of trouble spots elsewhere in the middle east caused by Shiite uprisings.

War may be the only option and it may end up that Israel starts it

Israel and USA, all the time.

I think these two together are the biggest threat to the world.

If USA said to Russia, “ok, why don’t you sort out Iran?”, I think they might just do it.

I honestly don’t think that Iran would attack Israel unless they had a huge arsenal of weapons as the moment it happens USA and NATO will attack Iran and that will be that.

I am not anti- or pro- any of these nations but I do think Israel will make the first move.