A Tale of Two Eucharists

[truthsilence]

Thank you, Tami. I do apologize for using the metaphor of the Doe Boy. I shall not commit that sin again. I hope you will be able to not hold that against me.

Please tell me (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to) why is the word loaf offensive? Would it have been less rude if i asked, “Is God a bowl of bread wafers?” or “Is God a bunch of bread hosts?”

Like i said, i’m dismayed and trying to understand. Maybe it comes from not setting foot in a Catholic Church since i was a kid. Maybe i just cannot understand the affection you have for the hosts.

Thank you for the apology and no, I do not, nor would I ever, hold it against you.

DrPiano and Blossom have given you some excellent things to think and pray about. I agree with them. They wrote better than I ever could.

God bless,
Tami

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you for the apology and no, I do not, nor would I ever, hold it against you.

DrPiano and Blossom have given you some excellent things to think and pray about. I agree with them. They wrote better than I ever could.

God bless,
Tami

Thank you, Tami, for accepting my apology. I find it refreshing that even in giving me a rebuke you find a way to encourage me, as you have done before. God has truly made you one of His rare and valuable encouragers. Keep on truckin’ girl!

 

[truthsilence]

Thank you, Tami, for accepting my apology. I find it refreshing that even in giving me a rebuke you find a way to encourage me, as you have done before. God has truly made you one of His rare and valuable encouragers. Keep on truckin’ girl!

Well, I thank you, soc. I needed to hear (read) that today.

You ‘keep on truckin’ as well.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, I thank you, soc. I needed to hear (read) that today.

You ‘keep on truckin’ as well.

I think i should call you Miss Barnabas, for Barnabas was an encourager in the Book of Acts whose name means encourager.

 

[DrPiano]

Yes, i’d have to agree that Jesus said some offensive things, for example, our sinless Savior said this:

… 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

… 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

… 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

(Matthew 23)

He actually did call people sons of Satan, walking dead, poisonous snakes. Yet, in all this, He never sinned.

I understand that you are not accusing me of committing any sin. However, would you say, Doc, that the rules of the forum are intended to protect people from being treated unfairly, or rudely, or in a disrespectful way? or do you think the forum rules have some other purpose?

The forum rules are for a number of reasons. Some of them are to prevent people being purposely offensive or inflammatory. Some of them are to prevent others from coming in and attempting to draw people away from the Catholic Church. These are just two of many reasons for the rules of the forum. As I understand it, these forums are primarily for Catholics and those who are respectfully trying to understand the Catholic faith. They are not for those who are anti-Catholic attempting to draw Catholics away from the Catholic church.

Please understand, at this moment I do not believe that you are attempting to draw people away from the Catholic church (although at the moment, my level of suspicion is raised slightly). As I said in my last post, however, “it is not generally (at least in my opinion) wise to seek understanding by offending the person (or people) trying to explain it to you.”

Jesus was certainly offensive in some of the statements he made to Pharisees. But are you saying that we’re like the Pharisees? If so, then I think perhaps you are violating the spirit of the forum. If you’re looking for truth, you’re in the right place. If you’re looking to simply understand what we believe, you’re in the right place. If you’re here to tear down or ridicule what we believe, you are probably not in the right place. If you’re here to accuse us of being Pharisees, then you’re most likely not in the right place. We accept respectful dialogue. We accept honest questions. For a while, we tried to tolerate questions that could be seen as offensive. But they did eventually cross a line that could not be tolerated.

Tell me, Soc. Earlier you denied trying to be offensive. Now you seem to be defending being offensive. Were you trying to be offensive or not?

I quote what I said a post or two ago:

I have to agree with Blossom. Go to a Catholic Church with a Eucharistic Adoration and watch those there. Ask God to open your eyes and allow you to see what they see. Pray. Attempt to understand what we’re saying about the Eucharist. I’m not trying to force you to believe it. I am asking you to open your mind enough to try to understand what we’re saying. Ask questions until you do understand. But ask sincere questions rather than attempting to be offensive.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The forum rules are for a number of reasons. Some of them are to prevent people being purposely offensive or inflammatory. Some of them are to prevent others from coming in and attempting to draw people away from the Catholic Church. These are just two of many reasons for the rules of the forum. As I understand it, these forums are primarily for Catholics and those who are respectfully trying to understand the Catholic faith. They are not for those who are anti-Catholic attempting to draw Catholics away from the Catholic church.

Please understand, at this moment I do not believe that you are attempting to draw people away from the Catholic church (although at the moment, my level of suspicion is raised slightly). As I said in my last post, however, “it is not generally (at least in my opinion) wise to seek understanding by offending the person (or people) trying to explain it to you.”

Jesus was certainly offensive in some of the statements he made to Pharisees. But are you saying that we’re like the Pharisees? If so, then I think perhaps you are violating the spirit of the forum. If you’re looking for truth, you’re in the right place. If you’re looking to simply understand what we believe, you’re in the right place. If you’re here to tear down or ridicule what we believe, you are probably not in the right place. If you’re here to accuse us of being Pharisees, then you’re most likely not in the right place. We accept respectful dialogue. We accept honest questions. For a while, we tried to tolerate questions that could be seen as offensive. But they did eventually cross a line that could not be tolerated.

Tell me, Soc. Earlier you denied trying to be offensive. Now you seem to be defending being offensive. Were you trying to be offensive or not?

…

Well, Doc, what i actually denied was being aware that i was being too offensive, which was the truth. Now that i have been made aware that i have offended, i’m doing what is my custom when i have been accused of some wrong: i compare myself to the one whom i seek to become more like, who is Jesus.

I’d have to completely disagree with you, Doc. You have not accused me of committing any sin, but i believe i have sinned, now that i have listened to you. For what you tell me about Jesus makes perfect sense. His offense was completely called for, because the hypocrites He rebuked certainly deserved such brutal honesty. (Perhaps some of them might never have listened to Him if He had been less shockingly offensive?) I can see, now, that my remarks, unlike those of Jesus, were uncalled for, as no one here has committed any sin of hypocrisy.

I hope you will accept my apology. That is, if you will recall our long talk last summer, i hope you will do more than cease to feel resentment. I hope you will not count my sin against me in any way, as long as my actions show i have truly made a change.

 

[DrPiano]

Well, Doc, what i actually denied was being aware that i was being too offensive, which was the truth. Now that i have been made aware that i have offended, i’m doing what is my custom when i have been accused of some wrong: i compare myself to the one whom i seek to become more like, who is Jesus.

I’d have to completely disagree with you, Doc. You have not accused me of committing any sin, but i believe i have sinned, now that i have listened to you. For what you tell me about Jesus makes perfect sense. His offense was completely called for, because the hypocrites He rebuked certainly deserved such brutal honesty. (Perhaps some of them might never have listened to Him if He had been less shockingly offensive?) I can see, now, that my remarks, unlike those of Jesus, were uncalled for, as no one here has committed any sin of hypocrisy.

I hope you will accept my apology. That is, if you will recall our long talk last summer, i hope you will do more than cease to feel resentment. I hope you will not count my sin against me in any way, as long as my actions show i have truly made a change.

I accept your apology and do forgive you (I did, long before this post, by the way). I do not count your actions against you. I do pray that you will seek to understand what we believe and that you will prayerfully consider what we say. I pray that God, the source and summit of all wisdom will give you an extra measure of his Grace and guide your search for Truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Question 13.

I’d like to apologize and say i’d like to make a change so as to not offend. Would anyone be willing to give me a second chance, or have my remarks warn out my welcome?

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

–Jesus (Luke 17:3-4)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I accept your apology and do forgive you (I did, long before this post, by the way). I do not count your actions against you. I do pray that you will seek to understand what we believe and that you will prayerfully consider what we say. I pray that God, the source and summit of all wisdom will give you an extra measure of his Grace and guide your search for Truth.

Thanks, Doc, i covet your prayers! And thanks for the respectful rebuke.

 

[DrPiano]

Thanks, Doc, i covet your prayers! And thanks for the respectful rebuke.

You’re welcome Soc. Each of us needs a good respectful rebuke at times

I’m more than willing to continue dialoging with you about the Eucharist. I suggest you go back through my posts on this forum and consider what I’ve already said. I’m willing to answer honest questions that you have about what I’ve written.

 

[maryj]

Question 13.

I’d like to apologize and say i’d like to make a change so as to not offend. Would anyone be willing to give me a second chance, or have my remarks warn out my welcome?

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

–Jesus (Luke 17:3-4)

We are all called to forgive, ’ Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespasse against us. Let’s move forward now, and begin anew. God bless you Soc, and may your journey be filled with nothing but peace.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We are all called to forgive, ’ Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespasse against us. Let’s move forward now, and begin anew. God bless you Soc, and may your journey be filled with nothing but peace.

Thank you, MaryJ.

Where would you like our conversation to have its new beginning?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You’re welcome Soc. Each of us needs a good respectful rebuke at times

I’m more than willing to continue dialoging with you about the Eucharist. I suggest you go back through my posts on this forum and consider what I’ve already said. I’m willing to answer honest questions that you have about what I’ve written.

Yes, i will.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Posts have been pruned to further discussion.
Please consider the situation dealt with.
MF

Please Note:

Just wanted everyone to know MF has now responded to my private message letting me know what i said that was offensive.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:Originally Posted by mikeledes forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif *I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed this. There is a difference between a question rooted in a search for truth and a question designed to prove your point or rooted in unbelief. If you’re asking a question to advance a point, then I believe in the “get-to-the-point” method. *This is not the kind of question a person who is “agonizing” over the Eucharist asks. This is the type of question asked by a person who has a clear Protestant view of the Eucharist, has rejected the Catholic view, and is trying to demonstrate that the Catholic view does not make sense. I personally found this question - and several other questions - very offensive. It is a mockery of Catholic teaching. In fact, the tone of this question is practically in the same vein as the questions the Jews asked when Jesus made the following statements:***41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” *****42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” **52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" These questions the Jews asked were not rooted in a search for truth, but in rejection. They rejected that Christ came from heaven and they rejected His teaching regarding the Eucharist. Their rejection of Jesus’s divine origin automatically means that they will reject anything that He teaches. God Bless,Michael

I gotta say I’m thinking/feeling the same way. I have also personally thought a lot of what has been posted is “very” offensive. Just one more thing…
How could this bread be Jesus, it is just bread. How could this be the Messiah, he’s just the carpenters son. See a correlation there?
I’ll go back to my original post #18…
If the Manna in the desert(a prefigure of the Eucharist), that feed the Israelites, on their journey to the promised land was indeed real food, which the Scriptures tell us is true, doesn’t it seem that we would be fed with “real food” that sustains us on our journey to the promised land(read heaven here!)

If you don’t think it a bad idea, this might be a good place to start, MJ. My prayer before i visit the forum each day is that i will have eyes to see and ears to hear the truth, and that, if i have anything to add to the discussion, that i would speak the truth in love. I often wonder why, when my desire is to be led by the Spirit of God, that i go and do something that rubs people the wrong way. My thought was that saying some shocking things might generate some interest in the topic, but i’m afraid my going to far has driven many away.

“There i go again, Jesus,” i say, “Why do you let me put my foot in my mouth like that?” Then, the Spirit reminds me:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

*(Romans 8:28)*and asks, “Do you love me, Socrates?” and i see how far from being like Jesus i really am. But, at the same time, i have hope that the Father will turn this blunder around into something good, as He has done so many times before. It’s funny how often God turns the BIGGEST blunders of my life into EVEN BIGGER blessings. Socrates said:

… the unexamined life is not worth living … .
and it’s my hope that i will learn from this like i’ve learned from other mistakes, and have eyes to see what Jesus is trying to teach me about myself. I hope i have not bored you with my confession.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m reminded of Jesus’ words at the time He told the overzealous mob He was the bread of life:

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. *(John 6)*And i wonder at this. I mean, Jesus was God, and could read their minds. Before a word came out of their mouths, He knew completely what they would say. He knew who would walk away and who would stay in reaction to His words that day.

But why did He say it on this day, and in such an offensive way? The Eucharist, i’m beginning to understand, is a sacred substance (i now hesitate to call the host a thing). Why would He choose this moment in time to talk about such a sacred doctrine? Prior to His offending words, i read this:

14After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.*(John 6)*The crazed mob, that wanted to make Him their conquering king and start a war with the Roman Empire, was not in a mood to listen to Him talk about such a sacrosanct subject! Why did He not wait until He was alone with His closest friends to discuss the sacrament of the Eucharist with them? I’m a firm believer that God has a good reason for everything He does and that His timing is perfect. So, what purpose did it serve to bring up the topic now (in the 6th chapter of John) instead of waiting until later (in, say, the 13th chapter of John)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, Soc. The Catechism does define the Eucharist for us. Be prepared, its rather long and detailed. You can find the Catechism of the Catholic Church here. And this is the first page of its discussion of the Eucharist (Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 3). Please go through the WHOLE section on the Eucharist. It ends with “In Brief” (1419).

I’ll quote a bit that I think is pertinent to the discussion. You can find it on this page. However, this is in the context of a much longer discourse on the article, so don’t respond to this until you have read ALL of the rest of what the catechism has to say on the Eucharist:

Quote:1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."2011375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. …1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204 …

Thank you, Doc. If you recall, i asked:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Still mud, Doc! I can apprehend how Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, but how He is 100% bread i have no clue. Maybe i’m misunderstanding something. *

*Which are you saying?

1. 
   *]The bread is more than bread; it is a vessel through which we receive the Spirit of the Son of God.
   *]The bread is not really bread; it is actually the human flesh of the Son of God.
   ]Something completely different.
   

1. 
   and you answered:
   

   I think I’m saying something that is either #2 or #3 - I’m not exactly sure which. Unfortunately I don’t know how much better or clearer I can explain it.
   
   Jesus is not 100% bread. The “bread” or the “host” after the consecration is 100% Jesus. Its substance of “bread” has been replaced by the substance of Christ. In general, Jesus does this “in disguise” (for lack of a better metaphor).
   
   Its kind of like when I put on a costume (although NOT exactly). I can change my appearance to look old or to look like a woman from the Renaissance. I can even look “kind of” like a cat.

   After reading the Catechism, i’m inclined to think that my #1 AND my # 2 are its meaning. At least, that is my understanding of these words:
   
   In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.”
   For, i take it that the “divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ” is the Spirit of God in Christ. Is this your inclination now, too, Doc, or are you of the opinion that the Eucharist contains only the flesh and blood of Christ?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Thank you, Doc, for answering. I hope you don’t mind my asking, but i’m a little dismayed by people taking offense. I’m just trying to understand.

Before i asked if God was bread, i asked:

1. 
   *]Is God an animal (e.g., the Lamb of God)?
   *]Is God a rock (e.g., the Jewish Temple)?
   *]Is God air (e.g., wind that blows where no one knows)?
   *]Is God water (e.g., living water)?
   *]Is God fire (e.g., a consuming fire)?
   *]Is God the sun or moon (e.g., the light of the world)?
   *]Is God vegetation (e.g., the vine)?
   Please tell me, which of these questions, if any, were also offensive, and why.

1. 
   I admi I was ofended by the pillbury dough boy because you are taking a trite commercial image and offering it in a discussion about a religious belief that has a meaning that is so much deeper even than the miacle itself because it goes to a concept of a God that wants to share an intimacy with His children that is TOTAL self gift. if any of that concept was apparent to you then you should have realized you were going across the boundary,
   
   But asking the questions in general, “is your god a rock…” etc… while it can be taken as offensive I found it an interesting and even prayerful thought process. If you look at the beginning of John’s Gospel and the concept of the Living Word from which all these things come, from which all aspects of creation come, then you can say al those things reveal some aspect of God…
   
   I have been struggling a bit to conceive of what it means when we talk of Jesus’s Soul ( Body, Blood, SOUL, and Divinity) and I feel like creation is a mirror of God’s Soul because it comes from His
   Being…but as I say, I am struggling to think about that. So in some ways the questions were not completely offensive to me.
   They were simple words but they could be portals for deeper concepts…
   
   But if there is ever any conception that a person takes the Catholic religion as being simple minded or superstitious, then that is insulting…with all the beautiful philosphical writings and mystical writings and all the different spiritualities…the Catholic Faith images Christ’s Soul in my mind…
   
   Try to make it apparent that you do recognize the depth of the Catholic tradition and you will stay out of trouble!
   
   So those are my feelings and thoughts.
   
   God Bless,Mary Zore

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I admi I was ofended by the pillbury dough boy because you are taking a trite commercial image and offering it in a discussion about a religious belief that has a meaning that is so much deeper even than the miacle itself because it goes to a concept of a God that wants to share an intimacy with His children that is TOTAL self gift. if any of that concept was apparent to you then you should have realized you were going across the boundary,

…But if there is ever any conception that a person takes the Catholic religion as being simple minded or superstitious, then that is insulting…with all the beautiful philosphical writings and mystical writings and all the different spiritualities…the Catholic Faith images Christ’s Soul in my mind…

Try to make it apparent that you do recognize the depth of the Catholic tradition and you will stay out of trouble!

So those are my feelings and thoughts.

God Bless,Mary Zore

Your feelings are sincerely noted, MaryZ, and i hope you will accept my sincere apology.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Thank you, MaryJ.

Where would you like our conversation to have its new beginning?

Well, I just got on this morning so I was hit with all this. I sent in my thoughts about what people were complaining about.

I offer encouragment in learning to regard the depth of people’s beliefs and the richness of Catholic thought.

So PEACE…

After all, St. Patrick likened the Trinity to a clover leaf!
The finger print of the Maker is on everything.

MaryJohnZ