A Tale of Two Eucharists

[Socrates4Jesus]

… But asking the questions in general, "is your god a rock"etc. while it can be taken as offensive I found it an interesting and even prayerful thought process. If you look at the beginning of John’s Gospel and the concept of the Living Word from which all these things come, from which all aspects of creation come, then you can say al those things reveal some aspect of God.

I have been struggling a bit to conceive of what it means when we talk of Jesus’s Soul ( Body, Blood, SOUL, and Divinity) and I feel like creation is a mirror of God’s Soul because it comes from His
Being, but as I say, I am struggling to think about that. So in some ways the questions were not completely offensive to me.
They were simple words but they could be portals for deeper concepts.

…

Yes, MJ! It has been said that Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote primarily to the Jewish people, but John’s gospel had the purpose of evangelizing the Greeks and Romans. Having studied pagan religions and Stoic philosophers, i see evidence of this. Please allow me to explain:

In John, chapter 1, John the Baptist says of Jesus: “Look! The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” And in pagan religions, there was a pervasive belief that any animal you meet, any rock you climb, any tree you touch might be a god or goddess in disguise.

The Greek god Zeus, for example, was believed to have turned himself into animals, and once even into a swan to catch an unsuspecting beautiful woman off guard. The army of Alexander the Great, outnumbered 10 to 1, won a crushing victory over the Persian army when they saw an eagle flying before them as they marched toward the Persian ranks. They believed the bird to be a sign that their gods were fighting the battle for them.

Jesus said, “I am the Vine” (John 15) and Socrates himself cautioned his friend Phaedrus to mind what he said so as not to offend the trees and the insects near them, who were actually dryads and other spies of the gods.

Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8) and pagans, such as the Egyptians, believed that the sun and the moon and the stars were gods.

Jesus told the woman at the well that He would give her “living water” (John 4) and there were Stoic philosophers who debated whether water was God. Denying the existence of anything without physical form, they believed God to be water.

There were other Stoics who argued that God was made of earth and stone, so Jesus compared His body to a stone building, saying, “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days.” (John 2).

There were Stoics who argued that God was wind, and Jesus said of the Holy Spirit: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit: “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3).

There were other Stoics who believed that God was fire, and Jesus alluded to Moses writing about Himself, describing Himself as “a consuming fire.” (John 5)

==============================================

The pagan religious believers and the Stoic philosophers were looking for God in all the wrong places. It is my opinion that John was showing them that the one whom they were searching was Jesus. He was using all these metaphors to show the pagans that their beliefs were merely symbols of the reality that they could find only in our Lord. Jesus, the bread from heaven, was sent from God to give life to a lost and dying world.

What do you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, I just got on this morning so I was hit with all this. I sent in my thoughts about what people were complaining about.

I offer encouragment in learning to regard the depth of people’s beliefs and the richness of Catholic thought.

So PEACE…

After all, St. Patrick likened the Trinity to a clover leaf!
The finger print of the Maker is on everything.

MaryJohnZ

Thank you, MJ!



Peace be with you, too.

 

[maryj]

(soc)
The pagan religious believers and the Stoic philosophers were looking for God in all the wrong places. It is my opinion that John was showing them that the one whom they were searching was Jesus. He was using all these metaphors to show the pagans that their beliefs were merely symbols of the reality that they could find only in our Lord. Jesus, the bread from heaven, was sent from God to give life to a lost and dying world.

What do you think?

A symbol as opposed to a sign. shall we discuss the differences?

And why was the world lost and dying?

 

[blossom02]

Soc all is forgiven. Please forgive me if I have done anything to offend you also.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…

A symbol as opposed to a sign. shall we discuss the differences?

And why was the world lost and dying?

Yes, please explain the difference.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc all is forgiven. Please forgive me if I have done anything to offend you also.

TY, Blossom! and there is nothing you have said that requires forgiveness, as far as i am concerned.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Yes, MJ! It has been said that Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote primarily to the Jewish people, but John’s gospel had the purpose of evangelizing the Greeks and Romans. Having studied pagan religions and Stoic philosophers, i see evidence of this. Please allow me to explain:

In John, chapter 1, John the Baptist says of Jesus: “Look! The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” And in pagan religions, there was a pervasive belief that any animal you meet, any rock you climb, any tree you touch might be a god or goddess in disguise.

The Greek god Zeus, for example, was believed to have turned himself into animals, and once even into a swan to catch an unsuspecting beautiful woman off guard. The army of Alexander the Great, outnumbered 10 to 1, won a crushing victory over the Persian army when they saw an eagle flying before them as they marched toward the Persian ranks. They believed the bird to be a sign that their gods were fighting the battle for them.

Jesus said, “I am the Vine” (John 15) and Socrates himself cautioned his friend Phaedrus to mind what he said so as not to offend the trees and the insects near them, who were actually dryads and other spies of the gods.

Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8) and pagans, such as the Egyptians, believed that the sun and the moon and the stars were gods.

Jesus told the woman at the well that He would give her “living water” (John 4) and there were Stoic philosophers who debated whether water was God. Denying the existence of anything without physical form, they believed God to be water.

There were other Stoics who argued that God was made of earth and stone, so Jesus compared His body to a stone building, saying, “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days.” (John 2).

There were Stoics who argued that God was wind, and Jesus said of the Holy Spirit: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit: “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3).

There were other Stoics who believed that God was fire, and Jesus alluded to Moses writing about Himself, describing Himself as “a consuming fire.” (John 5)

==============================================

The pagan religious believers and the Stoic philosophers were looking for God in all the wrong places. It is my opinion that John was showing them that the one whom they were searching was Jesus. He was using all these metaphors to show the pagans that their beliefs were merely symbols of the reality that they could find only in our Lord. Jesus, the bread from heaven, was sent from God to give life to a lost and dying world.

What do you think?

Yes, I think you are saying something very important and this is a good starting point for discussion.

Have you seen the Books of Enoch online?

The books were rediscovered in the 1700s after being buried or lost for many years but they are quoted in Hebrews and the book of Jude and many of the titles Jesus called Himself came from those books. Enoch was a mystic and a prophet from Genesis 5,
the one 'who walked with God and was no more". Interesting that they were re-discovered right when bibcal scholarship started to be more scientifically oriented. This a bit off topic I know, but I was looking for references in Enoch for the Eucharist yesterday.
I will post the decription given for the Tree of Life in another post as it is so beautiful. This book was very familiar to Jesus and the title “Son of Man” came from Enoch. Perhaps it was rejected by the Jewish scholars because it pointed to Jesus too much.

Also the Hebrew Catholic site has much interesting information about the Jewish mystic tradition which John Paul II was interested in and which Teresa of Avila was very familiar with.
I believe Enoch might have been still alive in oral tradition when it was lost and the vision Enoch has of God’s dwelling is awesome and it has some of the qualities of Teresa of Avila and also the Book of Revelations.

Sorry…I know this is a tangent but I am excited about discovering this lost book.

Yes, I agree…the different religions will someday come back together again in Christ. Is that what we can call the 'spiritual big-bang theory?"

Sorry I digressed…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, I think you are saying something very important and this is a good starting point for discussion.

Have you seen the Books of Enoch online?

The books were rediscovered in the 1700s after being buried or lost for many years but they are quoted in Hebrews and the book of Jude and many of the titles Jesus called Himself came from those books. Enoch was a mystic and a prophet from Genesis 5,
the one 'who walked with God and was no more". Interesting that they were re-discovered right when bibcal scholarship started to be more scientifically oriented. This a bit off topic I know, but I was looking for references in Enoch for the Eucharist yesterday.
I will post the decription given for the Tree of Life in another post as it is so beautiful. This book was very familiar to Jesus and the title “Son of Man” came from Enoch. Perhaps it was rejected by the Jewish scholars because it pointed to Jesus too much.

Also the Hebrew Catholic site has much interesting information about the Jewish mystic tradition which John Paul II was interested in and which Teresa of Avila was very familiar with.
I believe Enoch might have been still alive in oral tradition when it was lost and the vision Enoch has of God’s dwelling is awesome and it has some of the qualities of Teresa of Avila and also the Book of Revelations.

Sorry…I know this is a tangent but I am excited about discovering this lost book.

Yes, I agree…the different religions will someday come back together again in Christ. Is that what we can call the 'spiritual big-bang theory?"

Sorry I digressed…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

Gotta love those digressions! If i ever find the time, i’ll check out the book of Enoch.

But, for now, what were you going to say about signs?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Question:

Do you believe that water is made up of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule?



Replies:

Yes. But, what does this have to do with the Eucharist?

In nature, it is. If God wanted it to be otherwise, He wouldn’t have a problem making it so.

I have no problem with the scientific definition of the water molecule. H2O is cool with me. Nevertheless, I have a problem applying science and the microscope to a miracle. Miracles, by definition, defy scientific scrutiny and explanation.

I hope you have each seen my apology (admitting i was wrong to offend) and will be kind enough to continue the conversation, as long as i am true to my pledge to be respectful.

I’m sure all three of you agree that if the hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms of water are separated, then the water would cease to be water. Instead, it would be hydrogen and oxygen gases.

Lets say, however, that i disagreed with the three of you and tried to argue that the hydrogen and oxygen gases only appear to be gases, but were still water that i could drink. And lets say that when you questioned why i believed this, i replied that i believed it was a miracle that has caused the water to only appear as gases. I think you might think me joking, or a bit loony, if i put a cup of hydrogen and oxygen gases to my lips and acted as if i were taking a sip. I do not think you would believe me, as the observable evidence would show that what had once been water was now gases. However, the hydrogen and oxygen combining into water, again, might be a miracle.

I guess what i’m suggesting is that a miracle is making the impossible, actual. It is not making the unreal, real.

My question, then, which i ask respectfully, is this: Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed? or is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus? or is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Yes, MJ! It has been said that Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote primarily to the Jewish people, but John’s gospel had the purpose of evangelizing the Greeks and Romans. Having studied pagan religions and Stoic philosophers, i see evidence of this. Please allow me to explain:

In John, chapter 1, John the Baptist says of Jesus: “Look! The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” And in pagan religions, there was a pervasive belief that any animal you meet, any rock you climb, any tree you touch might be a god or goddess in disguise.

The Greek god Zeus, for example, was believed to have turned himself into animals, and once even into a swan to catch an unsuspecting beautiful woman off guard. The army of Alexander the Great, outnumbered 10 to 1, won a crushing victory over the Persian army when they saw an eagle flying before them as they marched toward the Persian ranks. They believed the bird to be a sign that their gods were fighting the battle for them.

Jesus said, “I am the Vine” (John 15) and Socrates himself cautioned his friend Phaedrus to mind what he said so as not to offend the trees and the insects near them, who were actually dryads and other spies of the gods.

Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John 8) and pagans, such as the Egyptians, believed that the sun and the moon and the stars were gods.

Jesus told the woman at the well that He would give her “living water” (John 4) and there were Stoic philosophers who debated whether water was God. Denying the existence of anything without physical form, they believed God to be water.

There were other Stoics who argued that God was made of earth and stone, so Jesus compared His body to a stone building, saying, “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days.” (John 2).

There were Stoics who argued that God was wind, and Jesus said of the Holy Spirit: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit: “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3).

There were other Stoics who believed that God was fire, and Jesus alluded to Moses writing about Himself, describing Himself as “a consuming fire.” (John 5)

==============================================

The pagan religious believers and the Stoic philosophers were looking for God in all the wrong places. It is my opinion that John was showing them that the one whom they were searching was Jesus. He was using all these metaphors to show the pagans that their beliefs were merely symbols of the reality that they could find only in our Lord. Jesus, the bread from heaven, was sent from God to give life to a lost and dying world.
What do you think?

Yes, I believe John’s gospel probably did have that purpose, whether John planned it that way is not clear. The Holy Spirit was leading Him in his writing so perhaps the images were inspired with God’s Wisdom in a way to talk to these different religious groups and convey the truth that Jesus was the ALL in ALL…
So the last statement you make here implies a basis for belief in the Eucharist so I am drawing the conclusion that your main struggle is whether this miracle of transubstantiation is a sign or a reality substantially etablished that Christ ‘is the life for a dying world’.

The difference between “sign” and “symbol” is that a “sign” points to something greater and a “symbol” represents something greater. The Blessed Sacrament is a REALITY which appears as bread and the appearance of the bread is a sign and symbol because it points to the ability of God to control nature and it is a symbol because it represents His ability to give and sustain all life.

God Bless, MaryJohnz

 

[truthsilence]

Question:

Do you believe that water is made up of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule?



Replies:

I hope you have each seen my apology (admitting i was wrong to offend) and will be kind enough to continue the conversation, as long as i am true to my pledge to be respectful.

I’m sure all three of you agree that if the hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms of water are separated, then the water would cease to be water. Instead, it would be hydrogen and oxygen gases.

Lets say, however, that i disagreed with the three of you and tried to argue that the hydrogen and oxygen gases only appear to be gases, but were still water that i could drink. And lets say that when you questioned why i believed this, i replied that i believed it was a miracle that has caused the water to only appear as gases. I think you might think me joking, or a bit loony, if i put a cup of hydrogen and oxygen gases to my lips and acted as if i were taking a sip. I do not think you would believe me, as the observable evidence would show that what had once been water was now gases. However, the hydrogen and oxygen combining into water, again, might be a miracle.

I guess what i’m suggesting is that a miracle is making the impossible, actual. It is not making the unreal, real.

My question, then, which i ask respectfully, is this: Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed? or is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus? or is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

The bread and wine become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ at the point of consecration, which happens during the Eucharistic Prayer of the Priest. It is no longer bread and wine, but still has every appearance of bread and wine.

I hope I’ve explained this correctly. I’m pondering your “making the unreal real” comment. Hmmm… very interesting.

Peace,
Tami

 

[Lazerlike42]

Question:

Do you believe that water is made up of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule?



Replies:

I hope you have each seen my apology (admitting i was wrong to offend) and will be kind enough to continue the conversation, as long as i am true to my pledge to be respectful.

I’m sure all three of you agree that if the hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms of water are separated, then the water would cease to be water. Instead, it would be hydrogen and oxygen gases.

Lets say, however, that i disagreed with the three of you and tried to argue that the hydrogen and oxygen gases only appear to be gases, but were still water that i could drink. And lets say that when you questioned why i believed this, i replied that i believed it was a miracle that has caused the water to only appear as gases. I think you might think me joking, or a bit loony, if i put a cup of hydrogen and oxygen gases to my lips and acted as if i were taking a sip. I do not think you would believe me, as the observable evidence would show that what had once been water was now gases. However, the hydrogen and oxygen combining into water, again, might be a miracle.

I guess what i’m suggesting is that a miracle is making the impossible, actual. It is not making the unreal, real.

My question, then, which i ask respectfully, is this: Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed? or is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus? or is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

Thanks for apologizing. It was a very “Spirit filled” sort of thing to do.

As you your last questions, the answer is all no.

The problem with your thoughts is basically that you’re thinking exclusively in the natural realm. Let me try to explain. You said:

I guess what i’m suggesting is that a miracle is making the impossible, actual. It is not making the unreal, real.

The thing is, Socrates, that what is “real” or “unreal” is all a matter of God’s decision and command. The unicorn, for example, is not real. However ultimately, the only reason for this is that God chose not to make it real. Had He chosen to, the unicorn would be just as real as the horse.

God chose to make the universe up of molecules and atoms and quarks and electrons and all that fun stuff. Had He actually wanted to make a universe based on a combination of elements like water, earth, fire, and wind, as the ancients believed in, He could have. Had He wanted to design our bodies to operate on four humours, as the medievals believed in, He could have.

We are made of atoms because God made it so, and what is real is so only because God made it so. A person can’t really start to think about the universe or God until he realizes that we’re all here at this very moment for no reason other than that God made us and that He is keeping us in existence even now. As someone once said, if God stopped thinking about you for the shortest moment, you’d cease to be.

You’ve got to make sure there isn’t the slightest, tiniest hint in your mind of the thought that anything at all existed before God, or that God made the universe out of anything, like a carpenter builds a house of materials he already has. God made the universe out of nothing at all. He spoke, and it sprang into being, as the Psalmist says.

**The only reason the laws of “two hydrogen plus one oxygen equals water” are true is because God continues to keep them being so at each and every moment. If He stopped thinking about those laws even for a moment, they’d cease to be just like us. **
God dictated the atoms and all their porperties. If God wants to change those properties, change the atoms, or change the composition of matter, over the whole universe of a small, 1 inch round space of it, He can do so.

Do you understand what I’m saying?

Peace and God bless!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The bread and wine become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ at the point of consecration, which happens during the Eucharistic Prayer of the Priest. It is no longer bread and wine, but still has every appearance of bread and wine.

I hope I’ve explained this correctly. I’m pondering your “making the unreal real” comment. Hmmm… very interesting.

Peace,
Tami

Thank you, Tami!



I’ve been told that appearances can be deceiving. Are you saying that the bread looks like bread, feels like bread, smells like bread, and tastes like bread, but is really human flesh? or are you saying that the human cells of Jesus are miraculously transformed into bread?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thanks for apologizing. It was a very “Spirit filled” sort of thing to do.

…

Thanks for saying so!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…As you your last questions, the answer is all no.

My question, then, which i ask respectfully, is this: Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed? or is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus? or is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

Sorry, i should have said, “my questions, then, are these…” for my question was really three. To which of these three are you answering no?

1. 
   *]Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed?
   *]Is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus?
   *]Is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, I believe John’s gospel probably did have that purpose, whether John planned it that way is not clear. The Holy Spirit was leading Him in his writing so perhaps the images were inspired with God’s Wisdom in a way to talk to these different religious groups and convey the truth that Jesus was the ALL in ALL…
So the last statement you make here implies a basis for belief in the Eucharist so I am drawing the conclusion that your main struggle is whether this miracle of transubstantiation is a sign or a reality substantially etablished that Christ ‘is the life for a dying world’.

The difference between “sign” and “symbol” is that a “sign” points to something greater and a “symbol” represents something greater. The Blessed Sacrament is a REALITY which appears as bread and the appearance of the bread is a sign and symbol because it points to the ability of God to control nature and it is a symbol because it represents His ability to give and sustain all life.

God Bless, MaryJohnz

That reminds me of what Jesus said to Nichodemus:

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10"You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

(John 3)

Are you saying that the Eucharist is an earthly sign of a heavenly reality?

 

[blossom02]

Truely Soc these things are a mystery and we must always keep in mindthat Gods ways are not our ways. God can do what ever He chooses with what ever He chooses. If He can make something from nothing then He can certainly make somthing from somthing. It is faith in the Lord that drives catholics to believe his every word. If He says “this is my body”, then it is His body and we see it as a gift. Only a merciful and loving God could provide us with such a gift of Himself.

 

[blossom02]

Maybe this should be in another thread, but why did y ou leave the Catholic Church? I ask because it could help us to help you understand.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Sorry, i should have said, “my questions, then, are these…” for my question was really three. To which of these three are you answering no?

1. 
   *]Does the Eucharist transform into human cells after it is swallowed?
   *]Is there some other way in which it is understood to be the physical body of Jesus?
   *]Is the host not the physical body of Jesus, but merely a carrier of His soul and divinity?

1. 1. No.
   2. Other way from what, from the way you mentioned in #1? It is the physical body of Jesus in its substance. That is, that is what it really, truly is. The molecules, the physical appearence, and the taste seem to be bread, but they are not. God has changed the properties of the universe for that piece of space.
   3. No.

 

[truthsilence]

Thank you, Tami!



I’ve been told that appearances can be deceiving. Are you saying that the bread looks like bread, feels like bread, smells like bread, and tastes like bread, but is really human flesh? or are you saying that the human cells of Jesus are miraculously transformed into bread?

The host looks like bread, feels like bread, smells like bread but at the point of consecration it becomes the body blood soul and divinity of Christ. St Thomas Aquinas explains further using terms such as accidents (appearances) and substances; stating that, the accidents (appearances) of the bread and wine do not change, but their substance changes from bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ. It is Jesus miraculously coming to us, body blood soul and divinity, under the form of bread and wine. And then literally, miraculously, being received into our bodies as we partake of the Eucharist.

As a dear friend said recently, (paraphrasing) this all can make you turn on a light and say wow! or fall flat on your face. (I see that as falling prostrate in worship of God) and I say, it does both.

God bless you,
Tami