A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?

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A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?
 
🍿

Oh boy…! This has the potential to have even more fireworks than the unending ‘evolution’ thread!
 
FiveLinden said:
A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?
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More traditional and even less attended than it is now due largely to the explosion of contemporary worship in all expressions of Christianity.

But the 4 or 5 left would be a righteous bunch!

😋
 
In My Opinion, Feel Free to Disagree
The remaining Catholics would be a strong, faithful, but small group, with many former Catholics joining high church Lutheran and Episcopal congregations due to misunderstandings in the faith that would not have been addressed by the nonexistent V2.
 
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The Church would enter a new Golden Age people would be running to Confession, converts everywhere and all of America would be Catholic like God intended
 
Why are you laughing? when all around us the Faithful and youth have abandoned the True Faith for secularism and false reglions

The Church was fine the way She was before the Council
 
I’m sure he thought it was sarcasm. I certainly did. Mass attendance was on the decline prior to Vatican II. The Council did not somehow cause it. Additionally, liturgical reforms were already taking place – there is no guarantee that the changes to the Mass would not have occurred without the council.
 
The Church had small problems before Vatican II but the reforms of the Holy Mass, destroying of High Altars made for the Worship of God.

These activities were never called for by Vatican II. But very few people actually care about the Truth of Vatican II.
 
Is this how you view traditional Catholics? As a “weird curiosity,” “marginalized,” and “isolated” like the Amish to the point where they have no impact on the world around them?
 
That is nonsense

The vast majority of traditional Catholics don’t want or care about human respect.

We care about saving souls
 
No, and don’t put words in my mouth. I said that is how society would view Catholics in this thought experiment world in which Vatican II never occurred.

touchy touchy
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Easy there. I didn’t put words in your mouth. That’s why I asked a question – to find out what you thought rather than assuming.

I am confused, however, by the dissonance that seems to exist in your responses. Seemingly, traditional Catholics are living in the thought experiment proposed by the OP. So it would follow, then, that assumptions made about what the world would be like if VII hadn’t taken place should correlate with traditional Catholic families and communities.
 
I am not mentally unbalanced and human respect simply makes us unable to convert people since we don’t want to hurt their feelings
 
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The Church would feel irrelevant, for the point of Councils and continual development is to respond to the needs of the age.
 
No it wouldn’t

The Church doesn’t change to suit the world’s needs that is modernism in a nutshell
 
Did the Council of Trent need to respond to past abuses and the Reformation? Yes.

Vatican II was called for a reason. I trust the Holy Spirit to move the Church to such a momentous event as an ecumenical council.

Do you?
 
Yes I do or I wouldn’t be Catholic.

The Council of Trent was a different crisis but the world during the 60’s was becoming more secular and a Council is usually supposed to reject errors and reaffirm the Faith.

Vatican II was only a pastrol council
 
FiveLinden said:
A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?
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The English speaking world is pretty broad and diverse. I think the results could be very different in different parts of America, England, Australia, South Africa or India.

But I will say this, the V2 Council fathers saw problems, it wasn’t idyllic during traditional days from their view. They were fully invested in this, and that’s why they did what they did.
 
The Church has always guarded Her Liturgical Treasure but to throw the TLM away to very small isolated communities in dioceses and change Her disciplines which encourage modern man to Holiness.

Is sad to see.

Vatican II has very confusing documents that can be read in a heretical or traditional matter which is a valid criticism
 
Perhaps a better thought experiment: there was no abuse of Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?
 
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