A traditional catholic defends the Neocatechumenal Way

[Earthen_Vessel]

Given the Holy Father’s stance on the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, I have my reservations that he led one of their services, even as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Do you have documented proof of this?

From what Chiesa has reported, it seems that the style of worship that the Neocatechumenal Way employed (and, hopefully, it is in the past tense) was diametrically opposed to what the Church requires. Pope Benedict, even as Cardinal Ratzinger, has been a vociferous advocate for safeguarding the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Having read his three books on liturgy and read many of his pre and post-papal commentary, I would have my reservations that he supported the Way’s version of worship. While he supports the movement itself, as noted in his words to them on their 40th anniversary, their matter of worship is an entirely different subject, otherwise, he would not have repeatedly issued warnings to them.

Do you have proof he didn’t? Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy. Seriously, I don’t have proof on my person as I type. But he DID celebrate with the Communties and I’m 100% certain I could give you documented proof, given some time which I don’t have at the moment.

As for the Pope’s “warnings”, he could have EASILY shut the Way down if he wanted to, with a wave of his hand. He’s the Pope after all. Yes, he’s given the Way wise counsel and from what I’ve seen, the Way has been obedient to it. He then went and approved the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way.

By the way, do you know of any movement in the history of the Church that didn’t have some issues to be resolved? Does that mean we should eliminate movements?

Clearly Benedict, by his approval of the Statutes sees the Neocatechumenal Way as a good thing for the Church.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

I love how some people will parse words to make a point rather than looking at a message in its totality.

Benedict XVI supports the Neocatechumenal Way. It’s not even arguable. But argue away some of you will.

 

[benedictgal]

Do you have proof he didn’t? Sorry, not trying to be a wise guy. Seriously, I don’t have proof on my person as I type. But he DID celebrate with the Communties and I’m 100% certain I could give you documented proof, given some time which I don’t have at the moment.

As for the Pope’s “warnings”, he could have EASILY shut the Way down if he wanted to, with a wave of his hand. He’s the Pope after all. Yes, he’s given the Way wise counsel and from what I’ve seen, the Way has been obedient to it. He then went and approved the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way.

By the way, do you know of any movement in the history of the Church that didn’t have some issues to be resolved? Does that mean we should eliminate movements?

Clearly Benedict, by his approval of the Statutes sees the Neocatechumenal Way as a good thing for the Church.

He marked their 40th anniversary with a special observance, not a celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

While other movemennts have had issues, the most serious ones have dealt with the particular group’s treatment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This was a very serious concern of the Holy Father’s. The fact that a cleric and a priest asked me to give them copies of the Pope’s directives to show to the local Neocatechumenal community shows to me that somehow either the word has not yet reached them (highly unlikely) or that they still believe that it is an option, not a directive.

No one is denying that he has a good opinoin about the group. It is their treatment of the Mass that greatly concerns him. If that were not the case, why would he have repeated his warnings several times in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009 and now 2009. Please read the links to the articles that I posed in a previous comment.

 

[Walking_Home]

Given the Holy Father’s stance on the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, I have my reservations that he led one of their services, even as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Do you have documented proof of this?

From what Chiesa has reported, it seems that the style of worship that the Neocatechumenal Way employed (and, hopefully, it is in the past tense) was diametrically opposed to what the Church requires. Pope Benedict, even as Cardinal Ratzinger, has been a vociferous advocate for safeguarding the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Having read his three books on liturgy and read many of his pre and post-papal commentary, I would have my reservations that he supported the Way’s version of worship. While he supports the movement itself, as noted in his words to them on their 40th anniversary, their matter of worship is an entirely different subject, otherwise, he would not have repeatedly issued warnings to them.

---

I am reminded of what Card. Arinze has said. About our late Pope being used by some to try and justify abberations/innovations in the Mass because the Pope attended such events —Card. Arinze said something along the lines that the Pope was invited to attend --and he was made subject to the innovations–Not that the Pope actually approved of them. I believe this can be found in Adoremus somewhere.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

Benedictgal, I’ve said a couple of times now, and this will be the third time in this thread, that the mandates the Pope made concerning the sacrifice of the Mass were put in place in the Fall of 2008. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. This is not hearsay on my part.

 

[Walking_Home]

I love how some people will parse words to make a point rather than looking at a message in its totality.

Benedict XVI supports the Neocatechumenal Way. It’s not even arguable. But argue away some of you will.

---

Yup — that is why he has warned them more than once -to be docile and faithful to the Church.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

---

Yup — that is why he has warned them more than once -to be docile and faithful to the Church.

Yes, with a Spirit of charity and love. Would that all would follow his example.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, with a Spirit of charity and love. Would that all would follow his example.

---

If I did not love the Church, If I did not care for the people who have been taken in by the “Way” or for those who will continue to fall for the “Way” — I would not give a hoot about what the NCW is doing.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal, I’ve said a couple of times now, and this will be the third time in this thread, that the mandates the Pope made concerning the sacrifice of the Mass were put in place in the Fall of 2008. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. This is not hearsay on my part.

The mandates that the Holy Father issued came out in 2005. The Movement was given two years to put these into effect. The two year period expired in December 2007, by which time, the directives should have been fully in place and obeyed.

Perhaps you might want to go through the entire thread as it has links to the letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments written to the movement at the request of the Holy Father. The timeline is also given in many of the links that I posted to the articles on Chiesa magazine.

Even as late as this past Triduum, the members of one of the Neocatechumanl Communities in my diocese were marking their own version of Holy Thursday. They were in the parish hall. I heard them as I made my way to visit the church at close to 10PM. The sacrament told me that they had their own “washing of the feet” and other items. I told him that the instructions for Holy Week, Paschale Solemnitatis, did not allow this. There was to be one celebration, unless there were grave pastoral reasons.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

The mandates that the Holy Father issued came out in 2005. The Movement was given two years to put these into effect. The two year period expired in December 2007, by which time, the directives should have been fully in place and obeyed.

Perhaps you might want to go through the entire thread as it has links to the letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments written to the movement at the request of the Holy Father. The timeline is also given in many of the links that I posted to the articles on Chiesa magazine.

Even as late as this past Triduum, the members of one of the Neocatechumanl Communities in my diocese were marking their own version of Holy Thursday. They were in the parish hall. I heard them as I made my way to visit the church at close to 10PM. The sacrament told me that they had their own “washing of the feet” and other items. I told him that the instructions for Holy Week, Paschale Solemnitatis, did not allow this. There was to be one celebration, unless there were grave pastoral reasons.

OK, which of these would you like to address first? Can we take one thing at a time? Shot gun blasts aren’t helpful.

 

[benedictgal]

OK, which of these would you like to address first? Can we take one thing at a time? Shot gun blasts aren’t helpful.

These are not shot-gun blasts. Rather, they are all related to the statement that the mandates were set in place for Fall 2008 when they should have already been obeyed in December 2007 when the two years that the Holy Father gave the movement expired.

Here is the article from Chiesa (written in December 2005) that blew the whole situation wide open. It reads in part that:

In the Neocatechumenal Way, communion is taken while seated around a large square table, with a large loaf of bread that is divided among the participants and wine that is passes from hand to hand and is taken in large swallows.

But communion is not the only area in which there is a departure from the traditional liturgy. There are significant innovations in other parts of the Mass.

For example, the readings from the liturgy of the Word are commented upon by the catechists of the group, who make lengthy “admonitions” followed by “resonances” from many of those present. The priest’s homily is hardly distinguished, or not distinguished at all, from the rest of the comments.

The times and places for the Mass are also unusual.

The Neocatechumenals do not celebrate their Masses on Sunday, but on Saturday evening, in small groups and separate from the parish communities to which they belong.

Now comes the action that the Holy Father took:

In mid-December, the founders and directors of the Neocatechumenal Way – Spaniards Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernandez, and the Italian priest Mario Pezzi – received a two-page letter from cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, with a list of “decisions of the Holy Father” which they must obey.

The letter is reproduced down below. Of the six points detailing the pope’s directives, only one permits the Neocatechumenals to continue what they are doing. This regards placing the exchange of peace before the offertory, a traditional practice in the Christian liturgy which is still in use today, for example, in the Ambrosian Rite celebrated in the archdiocese of Milan.

All the other points require the Neocatechumenal Way to eliminate a large portion of its liturgical innovations.

Until recently, the founders and directors of the Way had shielded these practices by claiming they had received verbal authorization from John Paul II. But with Benedict XVI, playtime is over.

And it’s coming to an end for the liturgical abuses practiced throughout the Church. In this regard, pope Joseph Ratzinger’s document in conclusion of the synod of the Eucharist will be of great interest.

The two-year provision means two-years from the date of the letter. Because it is lengthy, I will put that in another post.

 

[benedictgal]

Here is the letter, dated December 22, 2005, that Francis Cardinal Arinze wrote, back when he was prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

There is something interesting. The only part that does have a two-year transition period is the manner id distribution of Holy Communion. Here is the letter in its entirety:

Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. 2520/03/L

From Vatican City, December 1, 2005

To the esteemed Mr. Kiko Argüello, Ms. Carmen Hernandez, and Rev. Father Mario Pezzi,

Following the conversations with this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist in the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way, in keeping with the guidelines issued in the meeting with you on November 11 of this year, I am to inform you of the Holy Father’s decisions.

In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything. Furthermore, in regard to some elements the guidelines and clarifications are emphasized as follows:

1. Sunday is the “Dies Domini” as the Servant of God Pope John Paul II wished to illustrate in the Apostolic Letter on the Lord’s Day. Therefore the Neocatechumenal Way must enter into dialogue with the diocesan bishop in order to make it clear that the community of the Neocatechumenal Way is incorporated into the parish even in the context of the liturgical celebrations. At least one Sunday per month, the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way must participate in the Holy Mass of the parish community.

1. As for any admonitions issued before the readings, these must be brief. Adherence must also be shown to what is set out in the “Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani” (nn. 105 and 128) and to the Praenotanda of the “Ordo Lectionum Missae” (nn. 15, 19, 38, 42).

1. The homily, because of its nature and importance, is reserved to the priest or deacon (cf. Codex Iuris Canonici, can. 767 § 1). As for the occasional contribution of testimonies on the part of the lay faithful, the proper places and methods for these are indicated in the Interdicasterial Instruction “Ecclesiae de Mysterio,” which was approved “in specific form” by Pope John Paul II and published on August 15, 1997. In this document, sections 2 and 3 of article 3 read as follows:

§2 - “It is permitted to have a brief instruction that helps explain better the liturgy that is being celebrated, and even, in exceptional circumstances, a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days (for seminarians, the sick, etc.), and are thought truly helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest. These instructions and testimonies must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily.”

§3 - “The possibility of ‘dialogue’ during the homily (cf. Directorium de Missis cum Pueris, no. 48) can be used occasionally and with prudence by the celebrating minister as a means of exposition, which does not transfer to others the duty of preaching.”

Careful attention must also be paid to the Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” no. 74.

1. On the exchange of peace, permission is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to continue using the indult already granted, pending further instructions.

1. On the manner of receiving Holy Communion, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books.

1. The Neocatechumenal Way must also make use of the other Eucharistic Prayers contained in the missal, and not only Eucharistic Prayer II.

In short, the Neocatechumenal Way, in its celebration of the Holy Mass, should follow the approved liturgical books, keeping in mind what is laid out above under the numbers 1,2,3,4,5, and 6.

Acknowledging the favors that the Lord has bestowed upon the Church through the many activities of the Neocatechumenal Way, I take this occasion to extend to you my best regards.

• Francis Card. Arinze
  Prefect

---

Thus, while the movement had two years to comply with the issue of the manner of distribution of Holy Communion, everything else was supposd to have been complied with as soon as possible.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

Boy Benedictgal, do you believe everything you read? That Chiesa article is, to put it bluntly, full of pig wash. It’s also full of errors.

In the Neocatechumenal Way, communion is taken while seated around a large square table, with a large loaf of bread that is divided among the participants and wine that is passes from hand to hand and is taken in large swallows.

But communion is not the only area in which there is a departure from the traditional liturgy. There are significant innovations in other parts of the Mass.

For example, the readings from the liturgy of the Word are commented upon by the catechists of the group, who make lengthy “admonitions” followed by “resonances” from many of those present. The priest’s homily is hardly distinguished, or not distinguished at all, from the rest of the comments.

The times and places for the Mass are also unusual.

The Neocatechumenals do not celebrate their Masses on Sunday, but on Saturday evening, in small groups and separate from the parish communities to which they belong.

1st - I’ve never seen a large loaf of bread at a Community Mass. And I’ve been to roughly 600 of them.

2nd - I’ve never seen wine passed from hand to hand. It is given by a Priest, normally, or an extraordinary minister. By the way, I refer to it as the Blood of Christ at that point, and the bread as the Body of Christ.

3rd - The Priest’s homily has been very distinguishable in every one of the 600 Masses of the Way I’ve attended. Admonitions, brief ones are given before the readings and “echoes” are given before the Homily. I’ve explained this in another post.

4th - Masses are usually on Saturday evening, which is the time for the Sunday vigil. What a scandal!!!

5th - Communities do not separate from the Parishes to which they belong any more than the 8:00 AM Mass is separate from the 10:00 AM Mass. In fact the statutes now declare that the Community Mass IS a Parish Mass.

Also, I just read what Paschale Solemnitatis says about Holy Thursday. There is not one word that prohibits a foot washing ceremony in a small group. A separate Mass is prohibited. Neocatechumenal Communities are instructed to attend their Parish’s Mass on Holy Thursday.

Please, if you’re going to reference articles and Church documents, at least refer to credible articles and know what the documents actually say.

You guys are too much.

 

[Walking_Home]

The mandates that the Holy Father issued came out in 2005. The Movement was given two years to put these into effect. The two year period expired in December 2007, by which time, the directives should have been fully in place and obeyed.

Perhaps you might want to go through the entire thread as it has links to the letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments written to the movement at the request of the Holy Father. The timeline is also given in many of the links that I posted to the articles on Chiesa magazine.

Even as late as this past Triduum, the members of one of the Neocatechumanl Communities in my diocese were marking their own version of Holy Thursday. They were in the parish hall. I heard them as I made my way to visit the church at close to 10PM. The sacrament told me that they had their own “washing of the feet” and other items. I told him that the instructions for Holy Week, Paschale Solemnitatis, did not allow this. There was to be one celebration, unless there were grave pastoral reasons.

---

Not only that benedictgal. Here is an interview with Card. Medina Estevez --Prefect Emeritus of the CDWCS (done mid 2008 I believe). The NCW has been told for quite sometime to adhere to the directives of the Holy See. It is becoming evident that besides what has been put in print — there may have been other warnings to the NCW about adherence to the mind of the Church.

II Cardinale Medina Estevéz critica i Neocatecumenali: “Facciano Messe senza abusi: la liturgia non è proprietà di nessuno, tantomeno di Kiko Arguello”

di Bruno Volpe

papanews.it/dettaglio_interviste.asp?IdNews=7063

CITTA’ DEL VATICANO - Come è noto, il nostro giornale sta conducendo da diversi giorno una campagna di sensibilizzazione per evidenziare ciò che non va nella dottrina del Cammino Neocatecumenale. In proposito, abbiamo riportato commenti e testimonianze personali di chi, negli ultimi anni, si è imbattuto nel movimento fondato dallo spagnolo Kiko Arguello e ancora in attesa di essere ufficialmente riconosciuto dal Vaticano. Chi conosce certamente bene come pochi i Neocatecumenali è il Cardinale cileno Jorge Arturo Medina Estevéz (nella foto), il porporato che dalla Loggia delle Benedizioni della Basilica di San Pietro diede l’annuncio, il 19 Aprile 2005, dell’elezione di Benedetto XVI e che per anni è stato Prefetto della Congregazione per il Culto Divino e la Disciplina dei Sacramenti. E neanche lui sembra troppo tenero nei confronti del Cammino.

Eminenza, cosa pensa dei Neocatecumenali?

“Devo dire che anche tra di loro vi è qualche cosa di buono, cioè il sincero amore verso Cristo, ma…”.

Ma?

“Negli anni, come Prefetto del Dicastero vaticano competente in materia, ho purtroppo notato nelle loro liturgie autentiche stranezze e preopccupanti stravaganze. **Da tempo la Santa Sede li ha invitati a mettersi al passo e ad obbedire; **gli consiglio di farlo, perchè la liturgia non è proprietà di nessuno, tantomeno di Kiko Arguello”.

Lei parla di stranezze e stravaganze. A cosa allude precisamente?

"Intanto alla Comunione fatta stando seduti e senza inginocchiarsi. Mi pare un’assoluta mancanza di rispetto verso Cristo. Poi veniano alle omelie. Mi consta che laici - ripeto, laici - facciano dei sermoni che seppure non chiamano esplicitamente omelie, lo sono nella sostanza. Ricordo a me stesso e a loro che secondo la Divina liturgia solo un Ministro consacrato, cioè un sacerdote o un diacono, può fare omelie. Si tratta di abusi pericolosi".

Babel fish translation

CITTA’ OF the VATICAN - As it is famous, our newspaper is leading from various day a sensitization campaign in order to evidence this that does not go in the doctrine of the Neocatecumenale Way. In purpose, we have brought back comments and personal testimonies of who, during the last few years, are imbattuto in the movement founded from the Spanish Kiko Arguello and still waiting for being officially recognized from the Vatican. Who knows sure well as little the Neocatecumenali is Chilean Cardinal Jorge Arthur Medina Estevéz (in the photo), the porporato one that from the Loggia of the Blessings of the Basilica of Saint Peter it gave the announcement, the 19 Opens them 2005, of the election of Benedict XVI and that for years it has been Prefetto of the Congregation for the Divine Cult and the Discipline of the Sacramenti. And it does not seem tender too much in the comparisons of the Way.

Eminence, what thinks about the Neocatecumenali?

“I must say that also from each other there is some thing of bond, that is the sincere love towards Christ, but…”.

But?

“In the years, like Prefetto of the Ministry competent Vatican in matter, I have unfortunately noticed in their authentic liturgies strangeness and preopccupanti stravaganze. For a long time Saint has invited the Sede them to put itself to the step and to obey; the council to make it, because the liturgy is not property of nobody, tantomeno of Kiko Arguello”.

It speaks about strangeness and stravaganze. To what she alludes just?

“While to the made Communion being seated and without to kneel down itself. An absolute lack of respect seems to me towards Christ. Then veniano to the omelie. Me consta that laici - I repeat, laici - they make of the sermoni that even though they do not call omelie explicitly, it they are in the substance. Same memory to me and they that second the Divine liturgy only a consecrated Minister, that is a clergyman or a deacon, can make omelie. Draft of dangerous abuses”.

 

[benedictgal]

Boy Benedictgal, do you believe everything you read? That Chiesa article is, to put it bluntly, full of pig wash. It’s also full of errors.

1st - I’ve never seen a large loaf of bread at a Community Mass. And I’ve been to roughly 600 of them.

2nd - I’ve never seen wine passed from hand to hand. It is given by a Priest, normally, or an extraordinary minister. By the way, I refer to it as the Blood of Christ at that point, and the bread as the Body of Christ.

3rd - The Priest’s homily has been very distinguishable in every one of the 600 Masses of the Way I’ve attended. Admonitions, brief ones are given before the readings and “echoes” are given before the Homily. I’ve explained this in another post.

4th - Masses are usually on Saturday evening, which is the time for the Sunday vigil. What a scandal!!!

5th - Communities do not separate from the Parishes to which they belong any more than the 8:00 AM Mass is separate from the 10:00 AM Mass. In fact the statutes now declare that the Community Mass IS a Parish Mass.

Also, I just read what Paschale Solemnitatis says about Holy Thursday. There is not one word that prohibits a foot washing ceremony in a small group. A separate Mass is prohibited. Neocatechumenal Communities are instructed to attend their Parish’s Mass on Holy Thursday.

Please, if you’re going to reference articles and Church documents, at least refer to credible articles and know what the documents actually say.

You guys are too much.

I think that perhaps you mgiht want to step back and objectively look at the situation. At the Cathedral, there is a large, platter sized paten and a huge eight-sided chalice. One time, when I was getting things ready for a huge diocesan Mass, I thought that the eight-sided vessel was a huge ciborrium and I placed hots in there. The rector smiled when he saw me doing this and said, “if you only knew what this was used for you would not be happy.” I told him I had my suspiicions that it was for the Neocatechumenal Way. The huge paten was for the “bread” they made.

The rector was under obedience to preside over the group’s liturgies although he was uncomfortable about the whole thing.

Regarding Saturday evenings, the Neocatechumenal liturgies are not held at the same time as the parish anticipated Sunday Mass. In the Cathedral’s case, they are held after the anticipated Sunday Mass, or, if there is a wedding, it is done after the nuptials. This means that if the wedding Mass ends at 8:30PM, the priest had to stay behind and celebrate another Mass.

Chiesa is a highly credible source. In fact, it is the Italian version of the National Catholic Register, Adoremus and other reputable Catholic weeklies. I would not be one to condemn the online journal as it provides credible and solid information. It is also one of the few, apart from Zenit, that will publish the texts of the Holy Father’s addresses (weekly general audience and others) in their entirety.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

Chiesa is a highly credible source. In fact, it is the Italian version of the National Catholic Register, Adoremus and other reputable Catholic weeklies. I would not be one to condemn the online journal as it provides credible and solid information. It is also one of the few, apart from Zenit, that will publish the texts of the Holy Father’s addresses (weekly general audience and others) in their entirety.

Well, it was dead wrong in this case. Even at best, it grossly misrepresented a Neocatechumenal Way Mass.

By the way, it was on the Adoremus site where I looked up what Paschale Solemnitatis said about Holy Thursday.

 

[theistgal]

IOne time, when I was getting things ready for a huge diocesan Mass, I thought that the eight-sided vessel was a huge ciborrium and I placed hots in there.

You put hots in the ciborium??

Boy, that sounds a lot worse than anything you’ve criticized the NCW for!!!

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

You put hots in the ciborium??

Boy, that sounds a lot worse than anything you’ve criticized the NCW for!!!

That’s OK. God is merciful. He knew she meant hosts.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, it was dead wrong in this case. Even at best, it grossly misrepresented a Neocatechumenal Way Mass.

By the way, it was on the Adoremus site where I looked up what Paschale Solemnitatis said about Holy Thursday.

---

That would depend wouldn’t it. Depend on the NCW “idea” of what the Mass is vs. what the Church and the general mainstream Catholic population know the Mass is to be.

Kinda like what Card. Medina Estevez said about the NCW laity and the homily. The NCW does not explicity call what the laity does a homily – but in substance that is what it is.

 

[theistgal]

That’s OK. God is merciful. He knew she meant hosts.

I’m glad somebody did!