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Cruikshank_s
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I happen to love Pope St. Pius X, please don’t use that venerable man as an insult Angel, it’s just not right.
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benedictgal
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First of all, if you have read throughout the entire thread, you would have seen that I do know quite a bit about the Neocatechumenal Movement, having walked into one of their liturgies and having had to open and close the church for them during their meetings. I have been exposed to the movement. In fact, I met the team from San Antonio who first brought it my hometown.
The form of service they were practicing was not at all like the regular OF of the Mass, let alone the EF. It was radically different. I spoke, at length, to the priest who was charged with assisting the members of the Way. It mattered not to the community that the priest had several weddings on a partcular Saturday, let alone a full Sunday schedule. They were going to have their particular service no matter what. The music was not even music; it was wailing. The “talks” before the reading were lengthy and had a homelitic tone to them.
The members of the Movement, in and of themselves, were good people. The major issue with them was (and remains) their treatment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even in my city, there were some members of the group who have been in denial about the regulations. Pope Benedict XVI made it perfectly clear that the issues regaridng the Movement’s form of worship needed to be cleaned up and they needed to be brought into conformity with the authoritative liturgical documents of the Holy See. The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy rightly obsrerves that no one has the right to make any changes to the sacred liturgy. This prohibition also includes movements.
In fact, final approval of the statutes was contingent on the Neocatechumenal Way’s adherence to the Papal directives. There were some in the upper eschelon’s of the group’s leadership that considered these merely suggestions. However, Pope Benedict XVI and the Prefect Emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments repeatedly stated that these were to be obeyed.
Furthermore, the Neocatechumenal Way had to open its Masses to everyone. The reason I was able to be at the Mass was because I had an emergency situation with another priest and I needed to take him to the place where our mutual priest friend was. The priest was nearly incapacitated, but, even in his state, he was very well aware that what he was observing was radically different and not at all right. We were inconspicouous until the priest asked me, “What is going on up there?” I tried to gently shush him.
One should not make judgments on the experiences of other posters. I write, a good deal of the time, from personal experience and from research.
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pnewton
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I would think she might be referring to the Society that bears his name, which of course, benedictgirl does not belong to. I think the accusation is interesting in light of Grace Angel’s little comment, “Shame on you and pox to your type of judgement.”
And yes, I too love the sound of her keyboard. As a musician, she types quite,…er… musically, or so I assume.
On thing I have never understood about the movement is its purpose. The Mass isn’t already good enough with too forms, the vernacular and many other variations possible? Why? I just can’t get the why. Also, if one is going to have an evengelist outreach program, why monkey around with the Mass? There are no liturgical restrictions that would present controversy outside of liturgy. Why not have some other program and attend Mass like normal Catholics? I just don’t get it.
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santodomingo
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This is definitely NOT true, as far as my experience goes. I know people who were in the NCW who then joined a religious order, as nuns or brothers. I also know others who left the Way and stayed faithful catholics, with no animosity towards the Way. What I see very clearly is that the doors are open for any who wish to enter or leave. This obviously discualifies them as a cult.
The NCW is exceptionally good at “rescuing” lapsed catholics or even non-believers. So they have no need to pinch catholics from parishes, as has been implied.
Do I like their Mass? No. Do I like some of the things their leaders have said? No. However, this does not allow me to label them as heretics. If they comply with all the instructions from the Vatican and are 100% faithful to the Holy Father, I have no problem with the NCW existing as yet another charism within the CC.
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I_Believe
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Even with Carmen’s view of Eucharistic Adoration ?
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I_Believe
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Are you talking about the Saint himself, or the SSPX ?
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Walking_Home
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dear santodomingo —yes they join religious orders —but this does not mean they leave the NCW. They take the NCW into the religious orders. What I posted --is direct from those who have experience in the way—many, many years of experience.
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Earthen_Vessel
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santodomingo, what you say here is quite true. It matches my experience precisely.
And as I mentioned in an earlier post, all the Neocatechumenal Communities have been instructed to comply with the Holy Father’s directives and have been doing so since the Fall of 2008. As to why it didn’t happen earlier, it should be noted that there was a dialogue going on between Kiko and his team with the Vatican and the Holy Father about certain practices. This takes and took time. As to faithfulness to the Holy Father, I’ve never met more devoted Catholics to the Holy Father than those I know in The Way. That’s not to say that there aren’t others outside the Way just as devoted. I’m just saying that I’ve seen near complete faithfulness and devotion to the Holy Father from people in the Way, allowing of course for human sin and weakness
It has been mentioned also several times that the Eucharist of the Neocatechumenal way is “radically” different than other Eucharists. Different? Yes. Radically? No. It’s structured the same way as any other Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word followed by Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Priest gives ONE homily. All the liturgical prayers are the same.
So what’s different? There is an admonition prior to each reading where an individual gets up and says a few words to help the Assembly be attentive to the reading, i.e. why they should listen in practical terms. Also, before the homily, there is a period of what are called “echoes” which is an opportunity for individuals to share with the Community how the readings spoke to them concretely in their own lives. These should be brief. If anyone speaks heretically or in error, the Priest should and in my experience does correct them either immediately or during the homily. Also, the sign of peace is given before the Liturgy of the Eucharist rather than just before reception of the Eucharist. The Vatican has given permission for this.
The only other difference is that the music is very much associated with the Neocatechumenal Way, but I’m only speaking of the music itself. The Words to 95% of the songs are right out of scripture or liturgical prayers.
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Walking_Home
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Earthen_Vessel
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Walking Home, it has become readily apparent to me that you are not interested in a dialogue. Your only aim is to smear the Neocatechumenal Way, or so it seems. As such, I will no longer respond to your posts until the point you write that you really are interested in true edifying dialogue.
You’ve been warning everyone about the supposed “evils” of the Neocatechumenal Way, so I leave you with a warning of my own:
You better be certain when you preach to others that you are right, especially if you are calling something in the Church evil.
When people went to see Jesus, they basically fell into two camps. They either came to hear what this man had to say about the Kingdom of God or they came to critique him. The Pharisees fell into this latter camp and they missed the main point that they were in the presence of the Son of God. And Jesus excoriated them for this.
Walking Home, the Holy Spirit is like the wind; it blows where it blows. In love, I ask you to meditate on that fact.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
You’ve been warning everyone about the supposed “evils” of the Neocatechumenal Way, so I leave you with a warning of my own:
You better be certain when you preach to others that you are right, especially if you are calling something in the Church evil.
When people went to see Jesus, they basically fell into two camps. They either came to hear what this man had to say about the Kingdom of God or they came to critique him. The Pharisees fell into this latter camp and they missed the main point that they were in the presence of the Son of God. And Jesus excoriated them for this.
Walking Home, the Holy Spirit is like the wind; it blows where it blows. In love, I ask you to meditate on that fact.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
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Walking_Home
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The Arian heresy was once part of the Church —was it good.
Now what I find interesting --and quite telling actually --is that you have 17 posts (with the above) to your credit. 16 are in this thread–defending the NCW–and all this after your statement:
Quote=Earthen Vessel
“I’m not even here directly defending the Way”
May I suggest – meditate on that.
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benedictgal
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I would beg to differ with you on the components of the Neocatechumenal Way’s previous liturgical practices. First of all, the group is seated had been seated in the round. I use the past-tense because I am ssuming that all of the communities are now complying with the directives of the Holy See.
Inasmuch as the prayers for the Mass come from the Roman Missal, that was about the only resemblance.
The “commentaries” began to take a life of their own and were sometimes running longer than the homily. The music, while it might be scripturally based, was not at all suited for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as it did not take into account the notions issued in Musicam Sacram and in the other authoritative documents of the Holy See. Having heard the music, it would seem that, in my own opinion, the words of Pope Paul VI would best describe it: “not all is fit to cross the threshhold.”
While there is a homily, it was often eclipsed by the excessive commentary. The echoes were also rather long.
The memberes of the community remained seated in their places during Holy Communion, a practice that the Holy See said had to stop. Iin fact, I don’t even remember seeing them kneel during their liturgies.
Regarding the issue of the exchange of the sign of peace, it should be noted that, in fact, that this is not an idea of the Neocatechumenal Way. Rather, the practice dates back to the Ambrosian Rite, as celebrated in Milan (named after St. Ambrose).
From my own observations, and from what one priest and one prelate have told me, the communities, at least the ones down here, still thnk that their previous liturgical practices were still a go. In fact, one of them asked me for a copy of the letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments so that he could show one of the Neocatechumenal Way communities that these requirements were binding. Unfortunately, it does seem that some of these communities still may have not gotten the message.
Actually, regarding the dates, the Neocatechumenal communities were supposed to have begun following the directives of the Holy Father as of December 2007, when their two-year moratorium had ended. That they waited until this past fall is rather troubling.
As I have said, the Holy Father commended them for their evangelization and their zeal. Howeer, he has made it perfectly clear that they need to obey the Church when it comes to the Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass does not belong to anyone nor to any movement. It is the Church’s greatest treasure and should not be amended to suit anyone or any group.
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Earthen_Vessel
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Do you? Do you think he would commend them if their zeal were somehow misguided or taking inappropriate forms? I don’t think so.
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pnewton
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Well, I have to disagree. The Holy Father usually emphasizes the good while using a gentle, firm hand for correction. It would be in his nature to commennd their zeal during a celebration, regadless of what he thought of other areas of their endeavor.
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Earthen_Vessel
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Well, I have meditated on that. And all I’ve done is pointed out things I know to be true without saying the Way is good or bad. I’ve tried to argue with reason. You, in my view for what it’s worth, have not.
"The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:8
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pnewton
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I guess this is what bothers me with the whole movement. Liturgy is the public prayer of the Church. No one yet has answered my “why”. Not to throw out the baby with the bath water, why is is necessary to monkey around with the Mass to evengelize. I only ask because I do not know this groups. So far we have been blessed by their absence.
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Earthen_Vessel
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I generally agree with what your comment. But this isn’t an isolated incident. Pope Benedict XVI is in frequent dialogue with the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way, even celebrating liturgies with them, and yes, correcting where necessary. That’s a far cry from calling it a heretical sect as some here have.
pnewton, I’m new here, but you seem to be thoughtful and ask reasonable questions. It’s a pleasure meeting you.
And I like the picture of…is it your son, I’m guessing? Quite the cutie.
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benedictgal
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Given the Holy Father’s stance on the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, I have my reservations that he led one of their services, even as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Do you have documented proof of this?I generally agree with what your comment. But this isn’t an isolated incident. Pope Benedict XVI is in frequent dialogue with the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way, even celebrating liturgies with them, and yes, correcting where necessary. That’s a far cry from calling it a heretical sect as some here have.
pnewton, I’m new here, but you seem to be thoughtful and ask reasonable questions. It’s a pleasure meeting you.
And I like the picture of…is it your son, I’m guessing? Quite the cutie.
From what Chiesa has reported, it seems that the style of worship that the Neocatechumenal Way employed (and, hopefully, it is in the past tense) was diametrically opposed to what the Church requires. Pope Benedict, even as Cardinal Ratzinger, has been a vociferous advocate for safeguarding the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Having read his three books on liturgy and read many of his pre and post-papal commentary, I would have my reservations that he supported the Way’s version of worship. While he supports the movement itself, as noted in his words to them on their 40th anniversary, their matter of worship is an entirely different subject, otherwise, he would not have repeatedly issued warnings to them.
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Earthen_Vessel
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Just know that a lot of people have been blessed by their presence.
Though Benedictgal disagrees with me, which is fine, I don’t see the huge differences in the Mass that she sees and I’ve been to a lot of them. I mentioned the main differences earlier, whether anyone wants to believe that or not.
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Walking_Home
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Take note of what the Pope said: full realization comes about with "docile adherence to the directives ----with communion with all other components of the people of God. …By faithfully keeping to every Church directive, you will make your apostolate even more effective, in tune and in full communion with the Pope and the Pastors of every Diocese.
So far the NCW has not fully realized their work --for lack of “docile adherence etc.” They may be effective in evangelizing to some point --but not within the mind of the Church.
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