Let me add to this.I find that many traditionalists highly supported Pope Benedict when he issued the Motu Proprio, when he celebrates ad orientum – in latin! --, when he distributes communion on the tongue on a kneeler, et cetera. …Yet when it comes to a statement that is not agreeable to them, the Pope is not very intelligent or capable of discerning the false prophets that they themselves have identifed for him.
You’ve also stated that the Pope can’t teach error. But if he’s deceived about the Way, then he’s implicitly teaching error by sending members of the Way to missions to evangelize. Sorry WH, but you can’t have it both ways.
What am I not addressing. I’ve already stated how the papacy is not protected from being deceived. Evidence points to the NCW being a mind control cult --used by Arguello to build his own “church” with himself as head. Being Catholic does not entail that we fall blind to the fact that deception on part of another can cause our Popes to err.
I could easily say that Summorum Pontificum was issued because the Pope has been deceived by Traditionalist Catholics. I can also say that SSPX and like societies brought schism to the Church, because it was “foretold by the Gospels that false prophets would come.” But I’m not, because I know the Pope is not a stupid man and I don’t assume certain things are evil based on the anecdotes of only a handful of people in a charism of about 1,000,000 people.
What am I not addressing. I’ve already stated how the papacy is not protected from being deceived. Evidence points to the NCW being a mind control cult --used by Arguello to build his own “church” with himself as head. Being Catholic does not entail that we fall blind to the fact that deception on part of another can cause our Popes to err.
Let me add to this.
Cafeteria Cathlicism can take several forms and we see it in all types. We also can all fall into the temptation to serve as our own authority. It is only when we disagree with the Holy Father or some document from the Curia that we can show that our obedience is more than coincidence.
Abuses of the Eucharist
Quote=Fr. Joe
I had one experience with a neocatechumenal group that quite upset me. They make their own patties for Mass. Conventional ovens are not hot enough to properly prepare the unleavened bread used at Mass, so it ends up more like powdered dough. (Ovens used by the sisters for hosts get up to about 800 degrees!) Anyhow, after Mass I noticed that there was an excessive amount of crumbs and powder on the altar. When I came back to clean up, I discovered that they had brushed everything onto the flour and were vacuuming it up. When I challenged this practice, I was told it was routine and that they had been taught that Jesus is bread but not crumbs. Obviously they never sang St. Thomas Aquinas’ great chant with any understanding.
Quote=JAMaddict
The Neocatechumenate would never leave the Church because it serves the Church, and** we are the Church**, and it’s purpose is to bring people back to the faith.
Show me one place Kiko teaches this. If you can’t, it’s irrelevant to even bring it up. Even if true, it just means that ONE individual needs to be corrected.
I wonder how much in “agreement” the NCW is with the Holy Father or some document from the Church – when they are being taught the following: The crumbs don’t matter-- our Lord is not present in them. The NCW —is the Church.
I the priests that celebrate with us are extremely persistent that we eat every crumb and let no particles fall to the floor. One didn’t even used the unleavened bread because it was too powdery There you go WH, your firsthand evidence!Show me one place Kiko teaches this. If you can’t, it’s irrelevant to even bring it up. Even if true, it just means that ONE individual needs to be corrected.
Show me one place Kiko teaches this. If you can’t, it’s irrelevant to even bring it up. Even if true, it just means that ONE individual needs to be corrected.
Hopefully this is a thing of the past since they have agreed to abide by the Holy Father’s instructions. I would not worry too much about the “We are the Church” statements. I have heard traditionalists say similar things. I never took it to mean they are *exclusively *the Church, just part of it.
I wonder how much in “agreement” the NCW is with the Holy Father or some document from the Church – when they are being taught the following: The crumbs don’t matter-- our Lord is not present in them. The NCW —is the Church.
I the priests that celebrate with us are extremely persistent that we eat every crumb and let no particles fall to the floor. One didn’t even used the unleavened bread because it was too powdery There you go WH, your firsthand evidence!
Hopefully this is a thing of the past since they have agreed to abide by the Holy Father’s instructions. I would not worry too much about the “We are the Church” statements. I have heard traditionalists say similar things. I never took it to mean they are *exclusively *the Church, just part of it.
He was of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Newark, NJ, which is pretty Neocatechumenal. Cardinal McCarrick actually lives between there and The RM Seminary in Washington, D.C.
Seems like the priest is lacking in NCW “catechesis”—hopefully Arguello and Hernandez will not become aware of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Seems like the priest is lacking in NCW “catechesis”—hopefully Arguello and Hernandez will not become aware of that.
He was of the Redemptoris Mater Seminary in Newark, NJ, which is pretty Neocatechumenal. Cardinal McCarrick actually lives between there and The RM Seminary in Washington, D.C.
It’s absolutely impossible to present you with any information, WH. I’m sorry but it’s true. You believe what you want to believe, even if it isn’t in agreement with the Holy Father himself, since you are obviously aware of things he isn’t.
Well – again hopefully Arguello will not find out the seminary is not up to his “ideology”.
I could easily say that Summorum Pontificum was issued because the Pope has been deceived by Traditionalist Catholics. I can also say that SSPX and like societies brought schism to the Church, because it was “foretold by the Gospels that false prophets would come.” But I’m not, because I know the Pope is not a stupid man and I don’t assume certain things are evil based on the anecdotes of only a handful of people in a charism of about 1,000,000 people.
Your evidence is purely anecdotal, the lowest on the hierarchy of evidence. However, how many people have been brought back to the Church through the Way? How many vocations have been inspired? Were not there four popes who acclaimed the fruits? Would this passed Sunday, on the Baptism of Our Lord, the Holy Father not have met in celebration with families of the Way in celebration of the 40th anniversary?
“How can we not bless the Lord for the spiritual fruits which, through the methodology of evangelization that you apply, have been harvested in these years,” the Holy Father asked. “How many fresh apostolic energies have risen up both among priests and among laypeople! How many men and women and how many families that had grown distant from the ecclesial community or had abandoned the practice of Christian life, through the announcement of the kerygma and the itinerary of rediscovery of baptism, have been helped to find again the joy of the faith and the enthusiasm of the testimony of the Gospel.”
zenit.org/article-24763?l=english
"When the leaders of a Loreto youth rally made a vocations call, some 2,000 men and 1,200 women stood up to show their readiness to become priests or consecrated persons.
Monday’s rally gathered about 100,000 youth from the Neocatechumenal Way, as a follow-up to the visit from Benedict XVI, who had been with the youth the two days before."
zenit.org/article-20409?l=english
“At a Mass in which he ordained 22 men to the priesthood, Benedict XVI spoke on what it means to be a priest…
Of the newly ordained men, 11 are from the Major Seminary of Rome, eight are from Redemptoris Mater – the Roman seminary of the Neocatechumenal Way – and the other three are from the Seminary of Divine Love, the Capranica College of Rome and the congregation of the Legionaries of Christ.”
zenit.org/article-19490?l=english
You keep saying that the Pope is sending people out on missions. Does the “Way” enjoy a status of pontifical right? I was under the impression that Kiko was the head of the “Way” not His Holiness. Wouldn’t it be seen as sneaky to imply that the pope himself is sending members out on missions when he really isn’t? I don’t like how this is going… deception is subtly around every corner it seems.You’ve also stated that the Pope can’t teach error. But if he’s deceived about the Way, then he’s implicitly teaching error by sending members of the Way to missions to evangelize. Sorry WH, but you can’t have it both ways.
It’s absolutely impossible to present you with any information, WH. I’m sorry but it’s true. You believe what you want to believe, even if it isn’t in agreement with the Holy Father himself, since you are obviously aware of things he isn’t.
Ok.Win for you when that day comes.
mattm09 — I believe what i believe --because the evidence is surfacing. The day will come when Arguello’s true face and the nature of the NCW will be recognized by the papacy. Whether it will happen with our current papacy or a future papacy – God only knows.
Higher and more tangible forms of evidence exist in favor of the Way, more than your opinions and the very few who may have possibly misunderstood.
You may try to disregard my evidence – but the evidence exists. And slowly the true nature of the “Way” coming to light. As to the number of people brought “back” to the Church by the NCW – they are not being brought “back” to the Church. They are being indoctrinated into Kiko’s “church”. Once they have been indoctrinated/brainwashed into Kiko’s “church” they continue in Kiko’s “church”. They have children --then turn them over to the “catechist” to continue the process.
Ok.Win for you when that day comes.