A traditional catholic defends the Neocatechumenal Way

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mattm09 said:
Appearances? Have you thought that that response might be genuine instead of a “mask” covering Kiko’s “ideologies?” Even the staunchest critics of the Way accept that it’s recognized by the Vatican as a valid formation of faith for our times. It’s pretty ridiculous to pass it off as one lay man sneaking around under the noses of hundreds of experienced and holy clergy.
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All errors that have infected the Church have been started by some one under the noses of clergy and Popes. Arius led the majority into heresy --laity, priests and even bishops. By the way – are you familiar with the Ultraquist heresy.
 
Walking_Home said:
All errors that have infected the Church have been started by some one under the noses of clergy and Popes. Arius led the majority into heresy --laity, priests and even bishops. By the way – are you familiar with the Ultraquist heresy.
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*Utraquist. Sorry that was bothering me 😛 . Yes I have heard of it. The Hussites basically said you couldn’t be saved without receiving both species of the Eucharist, which contradicts Church teaching.
 
mattm09 said:
*Utraquist. Sorry that was bothering me 😛 . Yes I have heard of it. The Hussites basically said you couldn’t be saved without receiving both species of the Eucharist, which contradicts Church teaching.
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Well – I am glad you are familiar with it. It may come in handy at some pt.
 
mattm09 said:
The Church, however, has no rule against the reception under both species. It’s also important to know that.
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Actually the Church does – while She allows the laity to receive the Precious Blood —She does not mandate that the Chalice be offered in each and every Mass --or that all receive from the Chalice when it is available.
 
Walking_Home said:
Actually the Church does – while She allows the laity to receive the Precious Blood —She does not mandate that the Chalice be offered in each and every Mass --or that all receive from the Chalice when it is available.
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Yes, but what I meant is that is the Church has no rule against the laity receiving from the Chalice. It may not always be possible, but it is not forbidden.
 
mattm09 said:
Yes, but what I meant is that is the Church has no rule against the laity receiving from the Chalice. It may not always be possible, but it is not forbidden.
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Not quite.

RS -2004

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
Communion under Both Kinds

[101.] … It is to be completely excluded where even a small danger exists of the sacred species being profaned.[187]

[102.] The chalice should not be ministered to lay members of Christ’s faithful where there is such a large number of communicants[189]that it is difficult to gauge the amount of wine for the Eucharist and there is a danger that “more than a reasonable quantity of the Blood of Christ remain to be consumed at the end of the celebration”.[190] The same is true wherever access to the chalice would be difficult to arrange, or where such a large amount of wine would be required that its certain provenance and quality could only be known with difficulty, or wherever there is not an adequate number of sacred ministers or extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion with proper formation, or where a notable part of the people continues to prefer not to approach the chalice for various reasons, so that the sign of unity would in some sense be negated.
 
Walking_Home said:
Not quite.

RS -2004

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
Communion under Both Kinds

[101.] … It is to be completely excluded where even a small danger exists of the sacred species being profaned.[187]

[102.] The chalice should not be ministered to lay members of Christ’s faithful where there is such a large number of communicants[189]that it is difficult to gauge the amount of wine for the Eucharist and there is a danger that “more than a reasonable quantity of the Blood of Christ remain to be consumed at the end of the celebration”.[190] The same is true wherever access to the chalice would be difficult to arrange, or where such a large amount of wine would be required that its certain provenance and quality could only be known with difficulty, or wherever there is not an adequate number of sacred ministers or extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion with proper formation, or where a notable part of the people continues to prefer not to approach the chalice for various reasons, so that the sign of unity would in some sense be negated.
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Ok. Not COMPLETELY forbidden 🙂 .

This is totally off topic to the thread! I guess this ends the discussion for now?
 
Thanks for your responses. Some interesting comments. I noticed that all the objections to the NCW are theological or liturgical. I´m not sure that I like many things Arguello has said either, or the way they conduct their Mass.

However, nobody has addressed the huge influence the Way is having on so many people´s lives. In Spain, for example, if you take away the vocations from the Way you´re left with not much. They have 70 seminaries around the world. 70!!! Surely they must be doing something right. In my city, only last week 2 young girls from the NCW joined the Missionaries of Charity sisters as novices. “By their fruits you will know them” I find the fruits of the NCW are good, as far as I can see. This is why I cannot condemn them, as others do so strongly.

As far as some of the accusations which have been made against them, I must say that it´s completely false to claim they have “closed” masses. I was invited to one and there was nothing secret or elitist about it. I didn´t like it, but it wasn´t at all elitist.

Another false accusation is that the NCW divides marriages. I know a couple who are in the Way, and completely the opposite is true. The husband, who was keener than his wife, was told that his marriage was far more important than joining the NCW, and that if his wife refused to join, he would have to wait until she agreed. This is anecdotal, I realize, but I am also told that this is their policy. They rarely accept only one member of a marriage, precisely in order to avoid division in a family.
 
santodomingo said:
Thanks for your responses. Some interesting comments. I noticed that all the objections to the NCW are theological or liturgical. I´m not sure that I like many things Arguello has said either, or the way they conduct their Mass.

However, nobody has addressed the huge influence the Way is having on so many people´s lives. In Spain, for example, if you take away the vocations from the Way you´re left with not much. They have 70 seminaries around the world. 70!!! Surely they must be doing something right. In my city, only last week 2 young girls from the NCW joined the Missionaries of Charity sisters as novices. “By their fruits you will know them” I find the fruits of the NCW are good, as far as I can see. This is why I cannot condemn them, as others do so strongly.

As far as some of the accusations which have been made against them, I must say that it´s completely false to claim they have “closed” masses. I was invited to one and there was nothing secret or elitist about it. I didn´t like it, but it wasn´t at all elitist.

Another false accusation is that the NCW divides marriages. I know a couple who are in the Way, and completely the opposite is true. The husband, who was keener than his wife, was told that his marriage was far more important than joining the NCW, and that if his wife refused to join, he would have to wait until she agreed. This is anecdotal, I realize, but I am also told that this is their policy. They rarely accept only one member of a marriage, precisely in order to avoid division in a family.
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Arius had a huge influence on peoples lives. The majority of the Church fell into Arianism. So if you are going by numbers --Arius was doing right. Taking away NCW “vocations” --the Church will still be what She has always been —The Church. What you are told and what actually happens inside the NCW are two different stories.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2763121#post2763121
Quote=jhelene
I had posted earlier in this thread that I was in the NCW for several years. To answer those who said that the NCW never would encourage spouses to leave if one isnt on board with the NCW is wrong. I have witnessed it first hand.** I was there when a catechist told a member of my community to tell her husband that she has a “new family now and she didnt need him anymore.”**
I have also witnessed and experienced first hand the stress that occurs when one spouse is a member and the other isnt. And have it come down to a “them or me” stance.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2764123&highlight=Neocatechumenal#post2764123
quote=nightengale
What jhelene says I have experienced throughout the 30 years. When I see it spelled out like that I realize that it must have been a form of brainwashing. My husband always used to say that but I always defended them., Maybe I have become wise - but I am sure it was Our Lady’s hand guiding me out!! I am so blessed to be out of it - in spite of all the warnings that I was following the devil by leaving. The other thing that always bugged me was having to use Kiko’s cross and icons only. They used to remove the large crucifix from the wall and replace it with Kiko’s virgin and child. No one could tell me why we did that, I was told that we had to be obedient and not be a rebel as it was again listening to the devil.
Someone in one of the replies said that they were sorry that I had left because it was so important to be with a community and not be ‘all alone.’ I would like to say to this ‘brainwashed’ person that I am not alone. I belong to the Parish and feel very much loved and needed within that community. I can now go to Mass every day and not feel guilty if I do that instead of saying my morning prayers from the psalter. We were told that it was more important to do that than to go to Mass every day. There are so many things that I could go on forever but I am afraid of boring you all.
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We have written to the Bishop but they all seem to be under a ‘spell’ of some sort. We can understand why, as the neocats are very useful beings in the Parish. The emphasis is to be ‘christian’. In fact, I have never heard Kiko use the term ‘catholic’ but always ‘christian’. May God bless them all and open their eyes. Wouldn’t it be amazing if they would catch on to what is happening and sort Kiko and Carmen out. The neocats could then be such a beautiful charism to the church - butnot possible under their present guise of what is church teaching. The only thing they seem to follow the church in is their policy of being open to life.
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Indyann:
We must be fair and balanced

zenit.org/article-24720?l=english
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And we have another statement from Pope Benedict that was in my inbox this morning: “POPE GIVES THANKS FOR NEOCATECUMENAL WAY”

zenit.org/article-24763?l=english
The Bishop of Rome recognized that the recent approval of the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way by the Pontifical Council for the Laity “has sealed the esteem and benevolence with which the Holy See follows this work that the Lord has stirred up through the initiators [of the Way].”
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The Pontiff went on to affirm that the full realization of the work comes with “docile adherence to the directives” of the bishops and “with communion with all of the other components of the People of God.”
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Does anyone think our Pope reads or hears about these things discussed at CAF?
 
Joysong said:
And we have another statement from Pope Benedict that was in my inbox this morning: “POPE GIVES THANKS FOR NEOCATECUMENAL WAY”

zenit.org/article-24763?l=english

Does anyone think our Pope reads or hears about these things discussed at CAF?
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👋 Carole

I think it might be a"guardian angel conspiracy"🙂

And I keep hearing Father Corapi’s booming “God’s ways are not our ways. His ways are so far above our ways…”

I am not in The Way, nor do I know anyone who is, but I cannot believe our Holy Father could be so decieved. He is not stupid!

He has mandated that any abuses be corrected, and I trust that he will follow up to make sure that they conform.
 
Interesting discussion. I pose a question however. If one cannot trust 3 separate Popes’ high regard for The Neocatechumenal Way, or any other such charism for that matter, then who can be trusted? How does one know what is to be safely followed or believed?

I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit would leave His flock to discern these things unilaterally or from someone with less authority than the Holy See himself. That would be very Protestant in its viewpoint as many Protestants believe that each believer discerns Scripture INDIVIDUALLY through the Holy Spirit.

This is obviously wrong. Message Boards are good for cheerful, good-natured discussion, but when it comes to figuring out if something is orthodox or not, I’ll stick with what my Papa has to say.
 
Earthen_Vessel said:
Interesting discussion. I pose a question however. If one cannot trust 3 separate Popes’ high regard for The Neocatechumenal Way, or any other such charism for that matter, then who can be trusted?
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I missed the part that said the Pope had “high regard.” I saw where he was thankful for the fruits and in the previous article where there was approval. From the original instruction the group was required to adhere to “obedience to bishops, acknowledgement of the role of the presbyter, and fidelity to the liturgical texts of the Church.” I would think that this should cover any objection any would have about the group.

In regards to the second point, I think it is unfair to the group and its leaders to quote from things said in the past as evidence against them, if they will currently submit to the guidelines mandated. If they were wrong, they would not be the first in the Church. Obedience, marked by a willingness to change and learn from the Church, is a sign of humility and openness to the Holy Spirit.
 
pnewton said:
I missed the part that said the Pope had “high regard.” I saw where he was thankful for the fruits and in the previous article where there was approval. From the original instruction the group was required to adhere to “obedience to bishops, acknowledgement of the role of the presbyter, and fidelity to the liturgical texts of the Church.” I would think that this should cover any objection any would have about the group.

In regards to the second point, I think it is unfair to the group and its leaders to quote from things said in the past as evidence against them, if they will currently submit to the guidelines mandated. If they were wrong, they would not be the first in the Church. Obedience, marked by a willingness to change and learn from the Church, is a sign of humility and openness to the Holy Spirit.
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True, “high regard” were my words, not an exact quote, but it’s not a big leap to infer that there is high regard if the Holy Father is thankful for the fruits. It’s an acknowledgement at least that the Holy Father believes the tree, in this case The Neocatechumenal Way, is producing good fruit.

As to obedience, you are also correct that it is a sign of humility and openness to the Holy Spirit. I do know for a fact that in The United States, the Communities of the Neocatechumenal Way have been obedient to the directive to stand during reception of the body and blood of Christ during the Eucharist. The Agnus Dei and the Creed are also recited at every Community Mass.

These things weren’t always done, but Kiko accepted the corrections and directed the responsibles for the Way to be obedient to the Church’s council. In the United States, I know that this was begun in the Fall of 2008 after a general meeting of responsibles for the Way in the U.S. I’m pretty certain that this has been done around the world as well.

I’m sure, someone could find someone or some Community in the way, not doing these things, but they are wrong if it is so. But in fact, if that were the case, they would not be in obedience either to Kiko’s directive or the Church’s. But in such a case, one shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.
 
The gospels themselves tell us there will be false teachers, false prophets. It has happened in our history. Have people gotten so presumptuous to believe it cannot happen in our time. Our Popes are human – just like the rest of us. The papacy does not immune a man from what he is —human – and as such can be deceived by a false teacher/prophet.
 
Walking_Home said:
The gospels themselves tell us there will be false teachers, false prophets. It has happened in our history. Have people gotten so presumptuous to believe it cannot happen in our time. Our Popes are human – just like the rest of us. The papacy does not immune a man from what he is —human – and as such can be deceived by a false teacher/prophet.
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Yes, the Gospels do tell us those things. The Gospels also give us a Church imbued with the Holy Spirit.

So who interprets these scriptures for you? Who tells you what a false prophet and a false teacher is?

The answer, I believe, is the Holy Spirit acting through the Church. I noted that you brought up the Arian heresy and how so many were deceived. But I think what is most important to note about that episode in Church history is that the Holy Spirit acted through a great saint, St. Athanasius to correct the problem. St. Athanasius was Bishop of Alexandria, and as such, part of the Church heirarchy.

So I find it very paradoxical that the very deception you state, Arianism, was corrected by the Holy Spirt through His Church. It actually makes me more comfortable trusting what the Pope’s have to say about various charisms and movements.

I would heartily encourage reading and becoming knowledgeable of scripture, but I’m sure you also know that relying on what the scriptures say, by your own interpretation, can be very harmful. This is why we have a Church that teaches us and leads us into truth when it comes to issues of the faith and we must ultimately rely on the word of the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Church.

Peace be with you.
 
Walking_Home said:
The gospels themselves tell us there will be false teachers, false prophets. It has happened in our history. Have people gotten so presumptuous to believe it cannot happen in our time. Our Popes are human – just like the rest of us. The papacy does not immune a man from what he is —human – and as such can be deceived by a false teacher/prophet.
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Are you so presumptious that you cannot even consider that it might be “WH” who is the false teacher?

Are you more guided by the Holy Spirit than the Pope and the Magesterium?

Until shown to be “false teachers/prophets”, the Magesterium takes precedence over the ramblings of an anonymous poster/posters.
 
Indyann said:
Are you so presumptious that you cannot even consider that it might be “WH” who is the false teacher?

Are you more guided by the Holy Spirit than the Pope and the Magesterium?

Until shown to be “false teachers/prophets”, the Magesterium takes precedence over the ramblings of an anonymous poster/posters.
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Yet I have provided the evidence to back up what I post. This evidence comes from people who have direct access to what the NCW is. You on the other hand -have stated – “I am not in The Way, nor do I know anyone who is,” — is shooting blanks or actually covering up.
 
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