A traditional catholic defends the Neocatechumenal Way

[benedictgal]

You put hots in the ciborium??

Boy, that sounds a lot worse than anything you’ve criticized the NCW for!!!

It’s hosts. I am sorry. The phone rang and I should have checked the spelling. Plus, I think I need new contact lenses as either the monitor is going bad or I need to really start eating more carrots.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

I’m glad somebody did!

Truth be told theistgal, I didn’t see it right away. It didn’t click 'til after I read your post. LOL

 

[benedictgal]

That’s OK. God is merciful. He knew she meant hosts.

Thank you. I know we’re sparring, but, I appreciat the correction.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

It’s hosts. I am sorry. The phone rang and I should have checked the spelling. Plus, I think I need new contact lenses as either the monitor is going bad or I need to really start eating more carrots.

Maybe you’re just getting old and your eyes are going. That’s what happened to me.

 

[theistgal]

Apologies for (temporarily) derailing the thread - it just struck me as funny. I think sometimes God likes to give us a little nudge, just to keep us from getting too serious.

And now - back to the discussion!

 

[benedictgal]

Maybe you’re just getting old and your eyes are going. That’s what happened to me.

Yes, I guess that is it.

Now, I met with the folks who came down from San Antonio to start the original community. They’re good people. In fact, I opened and closed the church for them on several occasions. The movement, though, just wasn’t for me.

I was taken aback when, after one gathering, my prest friend (who had to celebrate thier liturgy for them) pushed me into a circle when they started dancing. It was the strangest thing. I guess he didn’t want to dance so he put me in his stead.

I realize that this thread has mushroomed into something rather huge and comments and posts get lost along the way. In a prevous post (don’t ask me how many pages ago this was), I related how I wound up at one of the Neocatechumenal services.

The former pastor at my dad’s parish showed up at the church all of a sudden. We didn’t know at the time, but, he was suffering from Alzhiemers. How he made it from another city to the parish is known only to God. The new pastor asked me to stay with the former and hear Mass in the sacristy. After Mass, it was decided to take him to another parish, when my friend served as pastor. When I saw the church lights on, I thanked God that he was still there and I took Fr. X with me inside. I had arrived for the beginning of the service and sat in the pews while I saw the whole thing unfold.

Even Fr. X who was in and out of it, came to his senses and asked me if this was “Catholic” and what was our friend doing at a service like this. I shushed him and just observed. The talks and the music went on forever and my friend’s homily seemed to get lost. About the only recognizable thing was the Liturgy of the Eucharist. No, the bread used did not resemble the host. It was baked and yes, the chalice was huge. It turned out to be the same octaganol one that I saw in the sacristy much later.

Fr. X did manage to put his hand up as though he were celebrating during the Eucharistic Prayer (which was EPII). Given the fact that my friend was tired, having had the parish antiicpated Sunday Mass, a couple of weddings and a funeral, I wasn’t going to press him about the service. He was now going to have his hands full with Fr. X. I did hear Fr. X asking him in the sacristy, “Just what was going out there, X?”

So you see, what I observed pretty much connected the dots with what Cardinal Arizne wrote and with what appeared in Chiesa.

Like I said, the folks are good people. However, when the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is compromised, we need to step back and look at things objectively.

 

[Grace_Angel]

First of all, if you have read throughout the entire thread, you would have seen that I do know quite a bit about the Neocatechumenal Movement, having walked into one of their liturgies and having had to open and close the church for them during their meetings. I have been exposed to the movement. In fact, I met the team from San Antonio who first brought it my hometown.

The form of service they were practicing was not at all like the regular OF of the Mass, let alone the EF. It was radically different. I spoke, at length, to the priest who was charged with assisting the members of the Way. It mattered not to the community that the priest had several weddings on a partcular Saturday, let alone a full Sunday schedule. They were going to have their particular service no matter what. The music was not even music; it was wailing. The “talks” before the reading were lengthy and had a homelitic tone to them.

The members of the Movement, in and of themselves, were good people. The major issue with them was (and remains) their treatment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even in my city, there were some members of the group who have been in denial about the regulations. Pope Benedict XVI made it perfectly clear that the issues regaridng the Movement’s form of worship needed to be cleaned up and they needed to be brought into conformity with the authoritative liturgical documents of the Holy See. The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy rightly obsrerves that no one has the right to make any changes to the sacred liturgy. This prohibition also includes movements.

In fact, final approval of the statutes was contingent on the Neocatechumenal Way’s adherence to the Papal directives. There were some in the upper eschelon’s of the group’s leadership that considered these merely suggestions. However, Pope Benedict XVI and the Prefect Emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments repeatedly stated that these were to be obeyed.

Furthermore, the Neocatechumenal Way had to open its Masses to everyone. The reason I was able to be at the Mass was because I had an emergency situation with another priest and I needed to take him to the place where our mutual priest friend was. The priest was nearly incapacitated, but, even in his state, he was very well aware that what he was observing was radically different and not at all right. We were inconspicouous until the priest asked me, “What is going on up there?” I tried to gently shush him.

One should not make judgments on the experiences of other posters. I write, a good deal of the time, from personal experience and from research.

So Benedictgal you opened and closed the doors of the bulding and walked in on a Mass and now are expert? Yeah right.
The priest has a busy schedule and you judged the Way because of that? yeah right.
The form of service is not like like the regular OF of the Mass let alone EF? yeah right. Its interesting that you “walked in” on a Mass and stayed but then you say that no body can go to the Mass. Yeah right. “The music was not even music. It was wailing” You mean to say the songs they are singing are the psalms and not “come as you are” The talks? before the readings? were elgnthy and homiletic? I understood the “talks” to be introductions to the readings. The homily is reserved to the priest alone. "The members of the movement? in and of themselves were good people. the major issue with them was and remains their treatment of Holy Sacrifice of the mass…Hypocrite!!
etc etc etc.
you write “one should not make judgements ofn experiences of other posters etc…” But its acceptable for you to make judgements on things and people you know nothing about? yeah right. From Zenit News several days ago…
The Neocatechumenal Way has enjoyed the support of the recent Pontiffs, beginning with Pope Paul VI, the communiqué explained.

It noted how in a first audience in 1974, Paul VI greeted the Neocatechumenal communities with these words: “Here are the fruits of the Council! And this is something that consoles us enormously. You accomplish after baptism what the early Church once did before it: before or after is secondary. The fact is that you aim at the authenticity, at the fullness, at the coherence, at the sincerity of Christian life. And this is a great merit that consoles us enormously.”

Pope John Paul II seconded his predecessor’s praise, recognizing the Way in a 1990 letter as an “itinerary of Catholic formation valid for our society and our times.”

And the present Pontiff, Benedict XVI, has known the Neocatechumenal Way since his years as a professor, helping to introduce it in Germany, the communiqué noted.

It explained: “[Benedict XVI] also guided the process that led to the definitive approval of the statutes [last year]. Already when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger had the theological content of the kerygmatic catechesis examined thoroughly, as well as the various passages of the Neocatechumenate, and in 2003 he communicated the final approval to the Pontifical Congregation for the Laity. In preparation for the final approval, the Holy See has also recognized some liturgical adaptations.”

GraceAngel.

 

[Grace_Angel]

Boy Benedictgal, do you believe everything you read? That Chiesa article is, to put it bluntly, full of pig wash. It’s also full of errors.

1st - I’ve never seen a large loaf of bread at a Community Mass. And I’ve been to roughly 600 of them.

2nd - I’ve never seen wine passed from hand to hand. It is given by a Priest, normally, or an extraordinary minister. By the way, I refer to it as the Blood of Christ at that point, and the bread as the Body of Christ.

3rd - The Priest’s homily has been very distinguishable in every one of the 600 Masses of the Way I’ve attended. Admonitions, brief ones are given before the readings and “echoes” are given before the Homily. I’ve explained this in another post.

4th - Masses are usually on Saturday evening, which is the time for the Sunday vigil. What a scandal!!!

5th - Communities do not separate from the Parishes to which they belong any more than the 8:00 AM Mass is separate from the 10:00 AM Mass. In fact the statutes now declare that the Community Mass IS a Parish Mass.

Also, I just read what Paschale Solemnitatis says about Holy Thursday. There is not one word that prohibits a foot washing ceremony in a small group. A separate Mass is prohibited. Neocatechumenal Communities are instructed to attend their Parish’s Mass on Holy Thursday.

Please, if you’re going to reference articles and Church documents, at least refer to credible articles and know what the documents actually say.

You guys are too much.

Earthen Vessel, I note that you are new poster. Welcome. and thank you for your post and I agree with eveything you have said.
23 years worth of attendance.
GraceAngel.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

I appreciate your kind remarks GraceAngel. I don’t really want to get anyone riled up in these discussions. It’s just that I rely think that a great disservice is being done when a wonderful charism like the Neocatechumenal Way is misrepresented.

People come here that don’t know any better and read this stuff. They should know the truth.

 

[Walking_Home]

So Benedictgal you opened and closed the doors of the bulding and walked in on a Mass and now are expert? Yeah right.
The priest has a busy schedule and you judged the Way because of that? yeah right.
The form of service is not like like the regular OF of the Mass let alone EF? yeah right. Its interesting that you “walked in” on a Mass and stayed but then you say that no body can go to the Mass. Yeah right. “The music was not even music. It was wailing” You mean to say the songs they are singing are the psalms and not “come as you are” The talks? before the readings? were elgnthy and homiletic? I understood the “talks” to be introductions to the readings. The homily is reserved to the priest alone. "The members of the movement? in and of themselves were good people. the major issue with them was and remains their treatment of Holy Sacrifice of the mass…Hypocrite!!
etc etc etc.
you write “one should not make judgements ofn experiences of other posters etc…” But its acceptable for you to make judgements on things and people you know nothing about? yeah right. From Zenit News several days ago…
The Neocatechumenal Way has enjoyed the support of the recent Pontiffs, beginning with Pope Paul VI, the communiqué explained.

It noted how in a first audience in 1974, Paul VI greeted the Neocatechumenal communities with these words: "Here are the fruits of the Council! And this is something that consoles us enormously. You accomplish after baptism what the early Church once did before it: before or after is secondary. The fact is that you aim at the authenticity, at the fullness, at the coherence, at the sincerity of Christian life. And this is a great merit that consoles us enormously."

Pope John Paul II seconded his predecessor’s praise, recognizing the Way in a 1990 letter as an “itinerary of Catholic formation valid for our society and our times.”

And the present Pontiff, Benedict XVI, has known the Neocatechumenal Way since his years as a professor, helping to introduce it in Germany, the communiqué noted.

It explained: “[Benedict XVI] also guided the process that led to the definitive approval of the statutes [last year]. Already when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger had the theological content of the kerygmatic catechesis examined thoroughly, as well as the various passages of the Neocatechumenate, and in 2003 he communicated the final approval to the Pontifical Congregation for the Laity. In preparation for the final approval, the Holy See has also recognized some liturgical adaptations.”

GraceAngel.

---

Can you provide the actual speech/document where Pope Paul VI said those exact words to the NCW. The only place I find them is in the announcement the NCW submitted to Zenit on the 40 yr celebration of the “Way”. So to back up the quote the NVW is attributing to Pope Paul VI --please provide the actual speech document.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

---

Can you provide the actual speech/document where Pope Paul VI said those exact words to the NCW. The only place I find them is in the announcement the NCW submitted to Zenit on the 40 yr celebration of the “Way”. So to back up the quote the NVW is attributing to Pope Paul VI --please provide the actual speech document.

Even if GraceAngel did, you would still be intractable. Why bother asking the poster to waste their energy?

 

[Walking_Home]

Even if GraceAngel did, you would still be intractable. Why bother asking the poster to waste their energy?

---

I’d say – if the NCW is attributing a quote to Pope Paul VI --and it is publicly being used—back up from the actual speech/document should be provided. Now – how about you --since you are using energy to defend the NCW —spend some of that energy and provide the actual speech/document.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

Look up intractable. That’s why it’s a waste of energy for me or anyone else. If you were truly interested in a serious dialogue, I’d do it, but untily you show goodwill in that regard, I will not.

 

[Walking_Home]

Look up intractable. That’s why it’s a waste of energy for me or anyone else. If you were truly interested in a serious dialogue, I’d do it, but untily you show goodwill in that regard, I will not.

---

In other words – we are to take the words the NCW is putting in our late Pope’s mouth —with no proof… By the “way” --"interesting"method of trying to get out of providing proof.

 

[Earthen_Vessel]

---

In other words – we are to take the words the NCW is putting in our late Pope’s mouth —with no proof… By the “way” --"interesting"method of trying to get out of providing proof.

Again, you don’t get the meaning of what is said. I’ve stopped arguing. If you want to continue to believe in a flat earth, go ahead, despite the evidence to the contrary. I don’t have any obligation to prove anything to anyone who wouldn’t believe the sky was blue if you showed it to them.

 

[Walking_Home]

Again, you don’t get the meaning of what is said. I’ve stopped arguing. If you want to continue to believe in a flat earth, go ahead, despite the evidence to the contrary. I don’t have any obligation to prove anything to anyone who wouldn’t believe the sky was blue if you showed it to them.

---

You are defending the NCW --so why not provide the evidence to backup what they attribute to the late Pope. This ploy you are using really does not do much to enhance your credibility.

 

[Grace_Angel]

I appreciate your kind remarks GraceAngel. I don’t really want to get anyone riled up in these discussions. It’s just that I rely think that a great disservice is being done when a wonderful charism like the Neocatechumenal Way is misrepresented.

People come here that don’t know any better and read this stuff. They should know the truth.

Indeed my sentiments exactly.
GraceAngel.

 

[Grace_Angel]

---

You are defending the NCW --so why not provide the evidence to backup what they attribute to the late Pope. This ploy you are using really does not do much to enhance your credibility.

“For those who believe no proof is necessary for those who dont no proof is possible” Anon.

 

[Walking_Home]

“For those who believe no proof is necessary for those who dont no proof is possible” Anon.

---

Nice – but the NCW is publicly putting words in the late Pope’s mouth. So provide the evidence to support that quote.

 

[benedictgal]

So Benedictgal you opened and closed the doors of the bulding and walked in on a Mass and now are expert? Yeah right.
The priest has a busy schedule and you judged the Way because of that? yeah right.
The form of service is not like like the regular OF of the Mass let alone EF? yeah right. Its interesting that you “walked in” on a Mass and stayed but then you say that no body can go to the Mass. Yeah right. “The music was not even music. It was wailing” You mean to say the songs they are singing are the psalms and not “come as you are” The talks? before the readings? were elgnthy and homiletic? I understood the “talks” to be introductions to the readings. The homily is reserved to the priest alone. "The members of the movement? in and of themselves were good people. the major issue with them was and remains their treatment of Holy Sacrifice of the mass…Hypocrite!!
etc etc etc.
you write “one should not make judgements ofn experiences of other posters etc…” But its acceptable for you to make judgements on things and people you know nothing about? yeah right. From Zenit News several days ago…
The Neocatechumenal Way has enjoyed the support of the recent Pontiffs, beginning with Pope Paul VI, the communiqué explained.

It noted how in a first audience in 1974, Paul VI greeted the Neocatechumenal communities with these words: “Here are the fruits of the Council! And this is something that consoles us enormously. You accomplish after baptism what the early Church once did before it: before or after is secondary. The fact is that you aim at the authenticity, at the fullness, at the coherence, at the sincerity of Christian life. And this is a great merit that consoles us enormously.”

Pope John Paul II seconded his predecessor’s praise, recognizing the Way in a 1990 letter as an “itinerary of Catholic formation valid for our society and our times.”

And the present Pontiff, Benedict XVI, has known the Neocatechumenal Way since his years as a professor, helping to introduce it in Germany, the communiqué noted.

It explained: “[Benedict XVI] also guided the process that led to the definitive approval of the statutes [last year]. Already when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger had the theological content of the kerygmatic catechesis examined thoroughly, as well as the various passages of the Neocatechumenate, and in 2003 he communicated the final approval to the Pontifical Congregation for the Laity. In preparation for the final approval, the Holy See has also recognized some liturgical adaptations.”

GraceAngel.

Do you have documentation about this? The former Cardnial Ratzinger never mentioned this in his autobiography nor did he mention this in any of his writings before becoming archbishop of Munich Freising.

Furthermore, what you may not understand is the fact that no group has the right to make wholesale changes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, let alone cobble up their own rituals. The same Fr. Ratzinger that you “credit” with being involved in introducing the movement to Germany has written very pointedly, as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, about the dangers of liturgical abuse and introducing things and elements that have no basis in the organic development of the Holy Sacrifice.

While he has shown encouragement to the Neocatechumenal Movement, that is not to say that it is a wholesale approval. He admonished the group to remain faithful to the directives given to them by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

In fact, the only movement that the Holy Father has vigororously promoted and has been a strong part of, is Communion and Liberation. In fact, three consecrated women, all members of Communion and Liberation, are a part of the papal household, caring for the needs of the Holy Father. If anything, that is the movement that he has strongly advocated to the point that when the movement’s founder died, he personally went and celebrated his funeral Mass.

It is very concerning and troubling when folks can love and defend a movement to the point that thei fidelity to a group may blind them to the abuses that it has caused. When one makes a movement, whether it is the Neocatechumenal Way, the Cursillo Movement, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, LifeTeen or even Communion and Liberation, more important than following the norms and directives of the Church, then there are serious problems. Movements are secondary compared to the Church.