A Vision

[Joysong]

InLight:

When we talk about “imaginary” vision, we don’t mean those visions are imagined, correct? If it is imagined, it cannot be a vision, it is an imagination. Vision has to come to us, infused, out of our own control, not created by our preferred imagination. Just want to confirm.

That which is ‘imagined’ can be either natural or supernatural. In the reception of supernatural visions, these are received passively without one’s effort to ‘imagine’ … and are infused by God, as you correctly said. I’m really glad you are understanding this, as it is not exactly an easy matter to grasp. Here is St. John’s teaching:

All the things, then, that these senses can receive and fashion are known as imaginations and fancies, which are forms that are represented to these senses by bodily figures and images.

This can happen in two ways. The one way is supernatural, wherein representation can be made, and is made, to these senses passively, without any effort of their own; these we call imaginary visions, produced after a supernatural manner, and of these we shall speak hereafter. The other way is natural, wherein, through the ability of the soul, these things can be actively fashioned in it through its operation, beneath forms, figures and images.

And thus to these two faculties belongs meditation, which is a discursive action wrought by means of images, forms and figures that are fashioned and imagined by the said senses, as when we imagine Christ crucified, or bound to the column, or at another of the stations; or when we imagine God seated upon a throne with great majesty; or when we consider and imagine glory to be like a most beauteous light, etc.; or when we imagine all kinds of other things, whether Divine or human, that can belong to the imagination.

 

[Joysong]

Dark Warrior:

You made me cry!

Oh? Tears of joy, or tears of remorse? The smilie looks as if your heart was given some consolation. God bless you.

 

[DBT]

I also re-read the highlighted part of my “Fire Within” page 243 – 270.

IMO, Fr. Dubay’s discussion of signs of authenticity in visions isn’t quite as stong as what he says about locutions. From what I recall, he briefly touches upon the “natural” but quickly dismisses it in a rush to describe the “supernatural” from St. Teresa’s personal experience. However, we can deduce the natural from what is said about the supernatural if we reverse engineer it. Going from memory, here’s some of the things I remember from his presentation:

• the supernatural image is though as “alive” and not “dead” as in a painting or photograph.
• the supernatural image is “infused”; that is, not the result of our reasoning . . . it just appears, independent of what we were doing at the time (contemplative prayer).
• the supernatural image can not be controlled or manipulated. For example, Father describes the time St. Teresa desired to see the color of Christ’s eyes when his face appeared to her; but, recognizing that desire, the image imeadiately disappeared.
• the supernatural image causes unspeakable delight, wonder, awe and enthrallment.
• the supernatural image can only be looked at briefly for the soul can not endure it for long.
• the supernatural image “mercifully ends” by pushing the soul into even deeper contemplative absorption (union or even rapture). Remember, this prayer is beyond all images, forms and ideas; thus no visions or locutions happen here that we can *percieve at the time *or remember after the fact. This prayer is purely spiritual.
• the supernatural image produces remarkable fruit (growth in virtue) once the prayer ends.

Generally speaking, the natural (i.e. the product of our own imagination) wouldn’t have the above characteristics, or at least to the same degree.

Hope this helps . . .

Dave

 

[InLight247]

Going from memory, here’s some of the things I remember from his presentation:

• the supernatural image is though as “alive” and not “dead” as in a painting or photograph.
• the supernatural image is “infused”; that is, not the result of our reasoning . . . it just appears, independent of what we were doing at the time (contemplative prayer).
• the supernatural image can not be controlled or manipulated. For example, Father describes the time St. Teresa desired to see the color of Christ’s eyes when his face appeared to her; but, recognizing that desire, the image imeadiately disappeared.
• the supernatural image causes unspeakable delight, wonder, awe and enthrallment.
• the supernatural image can only be looked at briefly for the soul can not endure it for long.
• the supernatural image “mercifully ends” by pushing the soul into even deeper contemplative absorption (union or even rapture). Remember, this prayer is beyond all images, forms and ideas; thus no visions or locutions happen here that we can *percieve at the time *or remember after the fact. This prayer is purely spiritual.
• the supernatural image produces remarkable fruit (growth in virtue) once the prayer ends.

Generally speaking, the natural (i.e. the product of our own imagination) wouldn’t have the above characteristics, or at least to the same degree.

Hope this helps . . .

Dave

Dave, you have good memory.
I agree with all the above. What you summarized helps a lot. So are Carole’s explanation and quotes of St. John.

For spiritual things, unless one has personally experienced it, it is very hard to understand. Back in 1985 I had a vision in the supernatural sense fits all what I have read. It did not happen during contemplative prayer. It happened when my spiritual director (from college) prayed with me for my dying birth father. That was the first time I knew what “vision” is. To me, the so called “natural vision” is not a vision, it is imagination. Well, that was my terminology. Imagination is created by us, like to create a novel with pictures. Vision is infused by God. There is no way to manipulate or control a supernatural vision. A supernatural vision is not static, it is “alive”, and one will not forget it, even some details.

When I read about “imaginary vision”, it is the word "imaginary" with “vision” caused my confusion. Question is now cleared.

Thanks to you both. But pretty soon, new questions will likely pop up. Spirituality study never ends.

 

[DBT]

When I read about “imaginary vision”, it is the word "imaginary" with “vision” caused my confusion.

Terminology can be a killer I had a similiar problem for a long time with intellectual visions. To my way of thinking “vision” meant seeing something; however, St. Teresa’s and St. John’s teaching on this stresses that nothing is seen at all. So I thought how can that be? Then, one day, it clicked . . . in this case seeing means knowing or understanding.

Likewise, I can see how some might interpret “imaginary” as “making it up” or “phoney” when it really just means seeing in our mind.

Dave

 

[Joysong]

My apologies, everyone. When I submitted the link for St. Teresa’s explanation of imaginary visions, I did not check it after copying the address, so the link actually begins with another discussion on locutions.

Kindly scroll down from there to chapter XXVIII to find her description on visions.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Hi Mystic Warrior. Seems we’re both warriors. My battle is against myself. I wish the Lord through you (since you’re called a ‘warrior’) could slay the darkness in me. I miss my faith deeply.

P.S. I noticed your first post regarding RB2 is gone. Did you delete it? Just curious.

Hey DW. Yes, indeed, we are both warriors. You are not the only one who battles for his soul - so do I, so do all of us my friend. I don’t know your circumstances dear friend, but ask God to bring light into your soul and fill you with the Holy Spirit.

Darkness always recedes when light is present. That light is none other than Jesus Christ as described in the first chapter of St. John. I help people slay their darkness, but all of us are called to fight also.

No, I didn’t delete it. I suppose the tussle that I got into with RB2 was noticed by the moderating staff and they deleted them. I was just trying to defend you against unwarranted accusations. That’s okay. You know I support you.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Oh? Tears of joy, or tears of remorse? The smilie looks as if your heart was given some consolation. God bless you.

Joy

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Hey DW. Yes, indeed, we are both warriors. You are not the only one who battles for his soul - so do I, so do all of us my friend. I don’t know your circumstances dear friend, but ask God to bring light into your soul and fill you with the Holy Spirit.

Darkness always recedes when light is present. That light is none other than Jesus Christ as described in the first chapter of St. John. I help people slay their darkness, but all of us are called to fight also.

No, I didn’t delete it. I suppose the tussle that I got into with RB2 was noticed by the moderating staff and they deleted them. I was just trying to defend you against unwarranted accusations. That’s okay. You know I support you.

If you look at my website I offer my observations and experiences with darkness. I have an email address if you would like to discuss your personal situation. You are not alone.

Peace…

MW

Sure, what’s your email address?