A World without Religion?

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Paradoxical said:
If it’s important, I can find the article. However, happiness is measured by how the respondents answer the question as to whether or not they are “happy”, which would include things such as health, well being, finances, work, leisure time. Therefore, unless we want to claim that people who say they are happy when asked that question really aren’t, because happiness to you means something other than the dictionary definition, I think we have to accept the respondents answers.
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Subjective data is pretty…lame.

Is there some sort of objective measure of happiness in the study?

I would certainly give more credence to that, than a questionnaire.
 
PRmerger said:
Subjective data is pretty…lame.

Is there some sort of objective measure of happiness in the study?

I would certainly give more credence to that, than a questionnaire.
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Inocente gave one link, which is:

unicef.org/media/files/ChildPovertyReport.pdf

What would it matter how they measured happiness? Anyone knows if they are happy or sad. So, if you asked 1000 Americans if they are happy with their jobs, family, money, health, ideas and 300 of them said yes, and if you asked 1000 Swedes and 700 said yes, that’s ALL you really need to know. The individual is giving you a direct response as to whether or not he considers himself to be happy. We don’t need to know anything more or whether there was some sort of “objective measure” used.

Many Christians allege they have had experiences which they claim to come from their God which made them happy. Personally, I believe all experiences that humans claim come from the deity they read about in the bible are self induced. However, if they tell me they are happy, why would I look for some “objective measure”? Why would someone lie about being happy, and even if they were lying that were happy, how could anyone prove it? What you’re saying is you want to insert your own criteria of what makes someone happy, or you perhaps want a list of the questions and add or amend them to possibly get more people in your camp to say they are happy when they really aren’t.

I think the study shows beyond any doubt that religious countries are no more happy than anyone else, and most likely are a lot less happy. Perhaps they are saving their happiness for the afterlife?
 
Paradoxical said:
Secular countries have less crime than America.
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America is a secular country with strict separation of Church and State.

Judging by the laws of the land today, when it is permissible to kill one’s unborn child and men marry men, it may be more pagan than Christian.
 
tonyrey said:
👍
It is significant that Sweden has one of the highest standards of living in the world, one of the highest percentages of atheists - and one of the highest percentages of suicides…
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I’ve been to Sweden three times, mostly Stockholm. If people’s expressions on their faces is any sign of their mental state, I’d say Swedes are more resigned than happy. I think resignation can easily be mistaken for happiness.

The Lutheran church ceased to be the state church in 2000 and now Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Sweden.

Enough to put a smile on this Swede’s face. 🙂
 
Charlemagne_III said:
America is a secular country with strict separation of Church and State.

Judging by the laws of the land today, when it is permissible to kill one’s unborn child and men marry men, it may be more pagan than Christian.
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Are you KIDDING? America has a population of about 80% that claims they are Christian. Now, all of a sudden, it’s a secular country like Sweden? America allegedly has a secular government but that has nothing to do with the members of this country in fact being Christian. Truth be told, the government is filled with religious zealots trying to put forward a religious agenda.
 
Paradoxical said:
Truth be told, the government is filled with religious zealots trying to put forward a religious agenda.
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Truth be told, the government is filled with people who behave more like pagans than Christians. :rolleyes:
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Truth be told, the government is filled with people who behave more like pagans than Christians. :rolleyes:
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Of course. There never really is any troo Christian when that person does bad things. When that happens, the person is a pagan. Only the good things one days when they wear the Christian moniker is ever mentioned. When bad things are done, they are not really a Christian.

What this does is make the Christian religion really tiny, because not a one of you is without sin, and when one sins, that is unChristian.

I’ve been debating religion pretty much all my life, and have found that the claims of 4000 denominations in Christianity is really a fabrication. There are as many denominations as there are alleged “Christians”, because no two of you agree on what it really takes to be one.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Truth be told, the government is filled with people who behave more like pagans than Christians. :rolleyes:
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It’s good to see though, Charlemagne, someone admitting that America is really not a Christian nation. What percentage of the populace of America would you say really are Christians?
 
Aloysium said:
I am missing something.
There is only one place where the word “happy” shows up in the entire report.
What are you talking about?
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Here is another report for you. Happy is all over the place in the report and this report agrees that Sweden is one happy place. Thus, humans don’t need a bible God to be happy.

edition.cnn.com/2013/09/09/business/earth-institute-world-happiness-rankings/index.html

Those looking for greater happiness and satisfaction in life should head to northern Europe, but steer clear of Egypt and countries worst hit by the eurozone crisis, according to the 2013 World Happiness Report released Monday by Columbia University’s Earth Institute.

Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Sweden are the world’s happiest countries, according to the survey of 156 countries. Rwanda, Burundi, the Central African Republic, Benin and Togo – all nations in Sub-Saharan Africa – are the least satisfied with their lives, the report said.

The United States came in at number 17 in the world in terms of overall happiness
 
Aloysium said:
I am missing something.
There is only one place where the word “happy” shows up in the entire report.
What are you talking about?
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I posted the report. Well-being includes emotional well-being.

If you look at subjective well-being, last column of the table on page 2, it tells the same story - Sweden 7th, religious countries Poland 19th and Spain 2nd, UK 20th (US no data for some reason).

I couldn’t find any correlation between the religiosity of a nation and the emotional well-being of its children. Traditions of inclusion, socialization and being valued seem far more important. For instance in Spain when mom and dad go to a party and stay until 4 am, the kids go with them, they don’t get left behind with a baby sitter. Makes for tired but happy kids.
 
Paradoxical said:
When bad things are done, they are not really a Christian.
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How true! When good things happen, the believers praise God for his benevolence and “love”. When bad things happens, it always “Mother Nature” who gets the blame. How convenient! Everyone would like to play the game, with the rule: “if it is heads, I win, if it is tails, you lose”. But believers had “dibs” on this trick. 🙂
 
Paradoxical said:
It’s good to see though, Charlemagne, someone admitting that America is really not a Christian nation. What percentage of the populace of America would you say really are Christians?
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North America is following closely the tragic downward spiral of Christianity in Europe. Your question simply is not answerable without getting into the hearts and minds of every Christian. You do understand that don’t you?

Don’t bother me with statistics on this matter. Statisticians are not soul readers. :rolleyes:
 
@ Paradoxical

You seem to not understand the limitations of these sorts of studies.
You don’t even have a grasp of what they are saying.

What was the Columbia study’s conclusion?
“People can be unhappy for many reasons – from poverty to unemployment to family breakdown to physical illness,” the report said. "But in any particular society, chronic mental illness is a highly influential cause of misery. “If we want a happier world, we need a completely new deal on mental health.”
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There is no mention of religion as an independent or dependent variable.
Any such conclusions are extrapolations on data meant to investigate important societal factors that do not include religious affiliation or adherence.
Your statements have no validity.
You have also not explained why you wasted my time initially posting a study that had nothing to do with your biased conclusions.
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@ Inocente

You said it all when you remarked, about a study that did not investigate the matter,
I couldn’t find any correlation between the religiosity of a nation and the emotional well-being of its children.
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:doh2: ya, think?

@ HeeZen

If you are going to make any sort of comment about the beliefs of another person, you should quote. What are you possibly referring to when you say,
When good things happen, the believers praise God for his benevolence and “love”. When bad things happens, it always “Mother Nature” who gets the blame.
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You are embarrassing yourself and while the nonsense elicits a response, that’s about all that can be said about your comments.

I think I have much more data available (albeit observational) to suggest that Atheists who post on religious forums could not think themselves out of a revolving door.

:banghead:
 
Paradoxical said:
I think the study shows beyond any doubt that religious countries are no more happy than anyone else, and most likely are a lot less happy. Perhaps they are saving their happiness for the afterlife?
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Consider whether the people who have lived under the atheist governments of the Soviet Union, China, and North Korea are happier than the people who have not lived under such governments.

Voltaire:

“The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability….That was how things went with the Roman Senate which was almost entirely composed of atheists in theory and in practice, that is to say, who believed in neither a Providence nor a future life; this senate was an assembly of philosophers, of sensualists and ambitious men, all very dangerous men, who ruined the republic." (from Voltaire’s essay On Atheism).
 
Paradoxical said:
Secular countries have less crime than America. Sweden is one of the happiest places on earth. Catholics represent only about 17% of the world, and you might be surprised that the Catholic next to you quietly had an abortion last year, or spent time in prison for larceny or murder, or that he or she really doesn’t believe a virgin birth occurred or really doesn’t think the pope is infallible, or really doesn’t believe the things you do, yet keeps the “Catholic” tag in order to not create waves in his family or friends. We create the God that resonates with our own wants, needs and desires and it is us.
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Do you really worship yourself, your family and your friends?
 
inocente said:
It is significant that Sweden has one of the highest standards of living in the world, one of the highest percentages of atheists - and one of the highest percentages of suicides…
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You have overlooked the phrase “**one **of the highest percentages”…

It is understandable that those who believe there is no reason why we exist are more likely to commit suicide.
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And in breaking news, we find that in the overwhelmingly Christian society of the United States of America we find that…

…one-third of American children – a total of 15 million – are being raised without a father. Nearly five million more children live without a mother. lifesitenews.com/news/the-number-of-children-living-in-single-parent-homes-has-nearly-doubled-in

I eagerly wait your ‘no true Scotsman’ reply.

And by the way, the suicide rate in Sweden is comparable to that in the US. Other countries with similar suicide rates are New Zealand, Austria and Switzerland at around 10 or 11 suicides per 100,000. Strangely enough, a secular society such as Australia is a lot lower at 7.8. Oh, and in the Tony-nominated secular state of the UK it’s even lower at 6.9. worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/suicide/by-country/

If you’re going to keep shooting yourself in the foot, Tony, I can recommend a good podiatrist.

And there seems to be some general confusion hereabouts. A Catholic will quote a survey that shows Christianity in a good light and then when it is corrected, some other Catholic will claim that surveys aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

Then another Catholic will use the term secular to refer to a country like the UK (which has a state religion, for heaven’s sake) to show why it has a particular problem, then another will deny that the US is a Christian when it is pointed out that America has the same or even worse problems.

Jeez, guys, these goalposts really need to cemented in and bolted down.
 
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