AA

[Andrew1980]

Once again, I submit to you the “evil” of Weight Watchers. It not only allows for a lack of fasting before reception of the Eucharist and for a lack of fasting/abstainance during lent, but it also encourages “New Age” meditation as a way in which to combat over-eating! This is clearly a cult that is attempting to pull people out of the Catholic church and lead them to perdition!

weightwatchers.com/util/art/index_art.aspx?tabnum=1&art_id=122921

Twelve step groups help people see their sinfulness more clearly; not less. If anything, sponsers and other group members will call us out on our sinful behavior more than anyone else. It isn’t a feel good program that allows you to pretend your behavior is not wrong or sinful. Its a program of blunt honesty. If we are leading a sinful lifestyle we will be called to task for it and encouraged to amend our ways and seek reconcilliation.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I think (…and I have been wrong before, just last year as a matter of fact!)

The problem is the insistance to call alcoholism a disease. I’m pretty sure that 99.9% of AA people end up self diagnosing themselves with the ‘disease’ and that just doesn’t wash!

Once you do that…you are kind of pigeon holed into that mindset and AA treatment plan.

 

[CopticChristian]

Once again, I submit to you the “evil” of Weight Watchers. It not only allows for a lack of fasting before reception of the Eucharist and for a lack of fasting/abstainance during lent, but it also encourages “New Age” meditation as a way in which to combat over-eating! This is clearly a cult that is attempting to pull people out of the Catholic church and lead them to perdition!

weightwatchers.com/util/art/index_art.aspx?tabnum=1&art_id=122921

Twelve step groups help people see their sinfulness more clearly; not less. If anything, sponsers and other group members will call us out on our sinful behavior more than anyone else. It isn’t a feel good program that allows you to pretend your behavior is not wrong or sinful. Its a program of blunt honesty. If we are leading a sinful lifestyle we will be called to task for it and encouraged to amend our ways and seek reconcilliation.

Andrew,

Do people go to weight watchers because they believe they have a problem or because they believe they have a disease?

 

[CopticChristian]

I think (…and I have been wrong before, just last year as a matter of fact!)

The problem is the insistance to call alcoholism a disease. I’m pretty sure that 99.9% of AA people end up self diagnosing themselves with the ‘disease’ and that just doesn’t wash!

Once you do that…you are kind of pigeon holed into that mindset and AA treatment plan.

Armor,

The biggest problem is that people believe…

drinking problem…go to AA…

To be honest…

Go to AA/12 step religion where you will have to accept the disease paradigm and believe, as we see Andrew and Mgray proving, that the paradigm causes people to believe that they are diseased and they are not.

The other problem that is evident with all the 12 step disciples is how hard they fight to have others believe that they have a disease.

Cancer. Got it all. Surgery, Radiation, Chemo…you are cured. I don’t have this disease anymore? Yup…no disease.:dancing:

Diabetes. Did your gastric bypass and your diabetes is cured. No more diabetes, no more disease? Yup…no disease.:extrahappy:

Leprosy. We found out that drugs that cure Tuberculosis can be used to cure Leprosy. We can use those and you won’t have this dreaded disease. No leprosy anymore? No disease? Yup…no disease…:bowdown:

12 step disciple. You are not diseased. The data that promoted the notion of disease is faulty at best. There is no such thing as the disease of addiction and you are not diseased.

Anyone recommending AA or 12 step anything needs to know when they suggest it that they are going to come across this notion of being diseased and any lurkers viewing should know this as well. Many do not know this and should know this. What is the problem with full disclosure?

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

You did not answer this… YES I DID!!! LOOK AND READ ABOVE!!!

tell me

Do you spend time with the word? OF COURSE
Do you think of the word? OF COURSE!
Is the word close to you? OF COURSE!
Do you believe that the word can change all this? OF COURSE!!

As we believe, so we think and act…in order to change an action it is important to change the belief and thinking so you are incorrect that I am looking at behavior alone.

Your mind is focused on recovery that bespeaks of addiction/recovery and that is not necessarily the world understanding and exists only in the disease model paradigm. There is Habit/resolution as an alternative and you cannot accept that as you write “recovery programs”…there are many ways to address the problem that do not include the notion of recovery because there is nothing to recover from…just change.

Your notion of recovery model is again focused on concrete, limited thinking that addiction/disease/recovery is the universal approach to a problem. Problem/resolution, Habit/change…you are limited in your view of a problem. I doubt it, I was limited in my view of my problem at the outset of recovery, but the 12 Steps helped me see my issues went much deeper than just lust. I found that I needed healing in ALL areas of my life. I needed to work towards a complete submission to Christ and His Will. I no longer am my own, but I am Christ’s!

I believe that change is always possible. Great!!! So do I

I am biased against failure and the statistical reality that what is proposed as something that is effective is not and those that are in this paradigm refuse to accept reality. It has no better than a 5% success rate or a 95% failure rate, it ranks 37/48 when compared to better methods that work. What do you consider success? Just stopping problematic behavior? If an alcoholic stops drinking is that success?? It is NOT success if the alcoholic doesn’t find Christ!

If you have strep throat, consequences may be endocarditis, glomerulonephritis and Penicillin is the best treatment unless you are allergic. Why would I recommend lip balm because someone swares by it or alternative medicine like accupuncture that has a failure rate of 95% because someone that did it got better?

I believe that Christ is necessary for the world but I can’t force Him down their throats.

Of course you can’t force him down their throats, but leaving out Christ, leaves out the truth! There is no peace without Christ. It doesn’t matter if people don’t accept that or not, it is the truth. We are restless until we rest in him. Stopping problematic behavior means nothing if we don’t come to Christ. We still are left with a void that we are looking to fill until we fill it with him. We cannot hope to provide someone lasting happiness if we destort the truth to make them feel good! We must be honest. Without Christ, peace is not possible! This isn’t forcing him down their throats its being honest. People need honesty, especially those in recovery, they don’t need someone to sugar coat the path to happiness to make it more pallitable.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

Do people go to weight watchers because they believe they have a problem or because they believe they have a disease?

Likely both. I would guess many realize that they have a more difficult time than others not binge eating etc.

 

[Andrew1980]

Armor,

The biggest problem is that people believe…

drinking problem…go to AA…

To be honest…

Go to AA/12 step religion where you will have to accept the disease paradigm and believe, as we see Andrew and Mgray proving, that the paradigm causes people to believe that they are diseased and they are not.

Anyone recommending AA or 12 step anything needs to know when they suggest it that they are going to come across this notion of being diseased and any lurkers viewing should know this as well. Many do not know this and should know this. What is the problem with full disclosure?

What is not being disclosed? So we see ourselves as sick sinful human beings. Big deal? Isn’t everyone? Who in this world is not spiritually sick? Did not our Lord come for those who are sick? Why are we supposed to pretend that we are healthy when the truth tells us otherwise? Why should I pretend to be healthy when I know in my heart that the truth is that I am sick and that I am in need of a savior?

 

[Andrew1980]

Coptic,

In your opinion is their any such thing as mental disease? You seem to be ruling out the possibility that the mind can become diseased.

1. You accept that addicts can rewire their brains through repeated application of problematic behavoirs causing neurons to lay down faulty neuropathways.
2. You accept that this makes addicts different than the normal population.
3. You accept that this can be cured.
4. You refuse to accept that the faulty wiring can be labeled as a disease? Why?

Is there any mental diseases or disorders?

 

[Andrew1980]

Armor,

Anyone recommending AA or 12 step anything needs to know when they suggest it that they are going to come across this notion of being diseased and any lurkers viewing should know this as well. Many do not know this and should know this. What is the problem with full disclosure?

Would calling it a disorder make it more palatable for you?

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course you can’t force him down their throats, but leaving out Christ, leaves out the truth! There is no peace without Christ. It doesn’t matter if people don’t accept that or not, it is the truth. We are restless until we rest in him. Stopping problematic behavior means nothing if we don’t come to Christ. We still are left with a void that we are looking to fill until we fill it with him. We cannot hope to provide someone lasting happiness if we destort the truth to make them feel good! We must be honest. Without Christ, peace is not possible! This isn’t forcing him down their throats its being honest. People need honesty, especially those in recovery, they don’t need someone to sugar coat the path to happiness to make it more pallitable.

Andrew,

So, you have spent time with the word. Good. I will address this in a later post.

Christ is essential for the world. I agree. However AA is no better than doing nothing.

This program first detoxified the alcoholic in the hospital, then mandated A.A. attendance, and finally actively followed patients’ progress with an outreach counseling program. When the psychiatrist running the program, Dr. George Vaillant, evaluated how well his patients were doing two years and eight years after treatment, however, he found they had fared about as well as comparable alcoholics who received no treatment at all!12

1. Vaillant, Natural History of Alcoholism, p. 226.

Data contradicts Mgray’s Poll…but Polls don’t deal with reality or facts.

Would you agree that sending those that suffer to a Methodist Church would have as much benefit?

 

[CopticChristian]

Likely both. I would guess many realize that they have a more difficult time than others not binge eating etc.

Andrew,

Morbid Obesity is considered a disease and once resolved it is not longer a disease. Try thinking in terms of reality.

 

[CopticChristian]

What is not being disclosed? So we see ourselves as sick sinful human beings. Big deal? Isn’t everyone? Who in this world is not spiritually sick? Did not our Lord come for those who are sick? Why are we supposed to pretend that we are healthy when the truth tells us otherwise? Why should I pretend to be healthy when I know in my heart that the truth is that I am sick and that I am in need of a savior?

Andrew,

How many people do you know or have you known or the lurkers reading, about 3000, not posting have been told to go to AA for any problem…and also been told…

you are a sick sinful human being
you are spiritually sick
The Lord came for those that are sick
you need a saviour

no when you go to AA this is what you will find…do you think that some may reconsider going to AA knowing up front what you just said?

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

Morbid Obesity is considered a disease and once resolved it is not longer a disease. Try thinking in terms of reality.

So you are saying people joining Weight Watchers do have a disease and that one of the methods they are using to address it is New Age meditation as proposed on their website.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic,

In your opinion is their any such thing as mental disease? You seem to be ruling out the possibility that the mind can become diseased.

1. You accept that addicts can rewire their brains through repeated application of problematic behavoirs causing neurons to lay down faulty neuropathways.
2. You accept that this makes addicts different than the normal population.
3. You accept that this can be cured.
4. You refuse to accept that the faulty wiring can be labeled as a disease? Why?

Is there any mental diseases or disorders?

Andrew,

There are mental disorders that have the ability of being corrected.

Sadness often times thought of as depression
Habit percieved of as addiction
Prove your faulty wiring theory…

You want to believe you are diseased, you have swallowed a faulty wiring theory, whoever told you this should prove it and I say if you were wired to lust by

watching pornography
self gratification
Lust

whatever you did to wire yourself for bad habit you can unwire…whatever you did to wire it the way that made you

believe, think, act

can be unwired to change the way you

believe, think, act

It is just a matter of desire and motivation…

Do you believe that in God all things are possible?

Do you believe that in your mind there are only two sources of information, stored memory and imagination?

 

[CopticChristian]

So you are saying people joining Weight Watchers do have a disease and that one of the methods they are using to address it is New Age meditation as proposed on their website.

No,

People join weight watchers because they believe they have a problem that could range from

tired
heart disease
clothes don’t fit
diabetes

there may be many reasons for going and I do not know why any one person goes.

Morbid obesity is a disease. Do some research on Morbid Obesity and the definiton and consequences.

Explain your understanding of New Age meditation on the Weight Watcher website.

You never answered if sending people to a Methodist Church would be the equivalent of going to AA.

 

[Andrew1980]

No,

You never answered if sending people to a Methodist Church would be the equivalent of going to AA.

Of course not.

You want to believe you are diseased, you have swallowed a faulty wiring theory, whoever told you this should prove it and I say if you were wired to lust by

watching pornography
self gratification
Lust

whatever you did to wire yourself for bad habit you can unwire…whatever you did to wire it the way that made you

believe, think, act

can be unwired to change the way you

believe, think, act

I have agreed to this numerous times, not sure why you keep bringing it up.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

You are confused. The word addict as used is understood via its meaning to be slave. The notion of diseased is not a word in a book. How many years did you spend studying disease, ie

Robbins textbook…Pathologic Basis of Disease
Harrison Intenal Medicine…the compendium of disease

What is your point. You come to someone that knows, understands, and has diagnosed disease asking for a definition.

Disease as a definition you can look up…in the end the question is always going to be how is this disease classified…

Genetic
Infectious
Environmental
Endocrine
Metabolic

and then the disease is studied

Epidemiology

You are approaching your desire to prove a point in a way that makes sense to only you.

I am not your slave to do your bidding to prove a point.

If you want a logical rationale understanding of anything then approach it in a rational and logical way. I am the expert and not you. What is your question? Go look up the definition and tell me what your point is.

Humor me Coptic…

What is the Latin word and meaning of the word “disease”?

You made a little analogy of the Latin meaning of the word “addict” earlier in this thread…then you agreed with me that the soul can become sick.

Oh, you know exactly where I’m going because I’ve trapped you with your own words.

Most people don’t walk around with medical dictionaries. Just because it doesn’t make “sense” to you doesn’t mean it could be making absolute perfect sense to somebody else out there. I don’t need a medical dictionary or book or 12 years of schooling to know that.

And there you go trying to make me look somewhat “uneducated” or like I’m dumb. That’s fine if you think that. But to make it fair, I’ve spent as much time studying medicine and disease as you have sitting in AA meetings and working with alcoholics.

I’ve hit some intense points in these debates here which you haven’t had a good answer for. And just so you know, I’m receiving personal messages on here thanking me for standing up to you here…so keep it coming.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

How many people do you know or have you known or the lurkers reading, about 3000, not posting have been told to go to AA for any problem…and also been told…

you are a sick sinful human being
you are spiritually sick
The Lord came for those that are sick
you need a saviour

no when you go to AA this is what you will find…do you think that some may reconsider going to AA knowing up front what you just said?

I would guess almost all people joining SA know that they are sick sinful human beings that want to change. If they don’t realize they are spiritual sick, as we all are, they will hopefully realize it quickly by working the 12 Steps.

There are plenty of websites out there dedicated to the 12 Steps. The program is not trying to hide anything. I’m not sure what you think AA or SA is trying to “hide” from incoming members. One of the first things you are likely to be told when joining the fellowship is that we are sick. Its true about you its true about me. Its not a big deal, its just the truth.

 

[CopticChristian]

Humor me Coptic…

What is the Latin word and meaning of the word “disease”?

You made a little analogy of the Latin meaning of the word “addict” earlier in this thread…then you agreed with me that the soul can become sick.

Oh, you know exactly where I’m going because I’ve trapped you with your own words.

Most people don’t walk around with medical dictionaries. Just because it doesn’t make “sense” to you doesn’t mean it could be making absolute perfect sense to somebody else out there. I don’t need a medical dictionary or book or 12 years of schooling to know that.

And there you go trying to make me look somewhat “uneducated” or like I’m dumb. That’s fine if you think that. But to make it fair, I’ve spent as much time studying medicine and disease as you have sitting in AA meetings and working with alcoholics.

I’ve hit some intense points in these debates here which you haven’t had a good answer for. And just so you know, I’m receiving personal messages on here thanking me for standing up to you here…so keep it coming.

Mrgay,:banghead:

Do you play Chess? My favorite place to play is black. Since black is supposed to lose and I rarely do that means I play well. My favorite defense is the Sicilian.

I never learned in the 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and subsequent training to be trapped or to trap.

You are coming to me asking me to define something that you believe is a trap. Your thinking is unsane, in the vain of General Semantics, not consistent with reality.

Tell me what you believe this trap to be. Let’s discuss what it is you want to discuss. I am not trapping anyone, just providing information and discussing.

I rarely consult the medical dictionary except for spelling. What is it you believe that the medical dictionary is useful for?

Do you believe that sending someone to a Methodist Church would be the equivalent of AA?

 

[Andrew1980]

Finally, I understand that for some reason you are clearly biased against the 12 Steps. I would propose the question on whether or not you believe recovery without Christ is possible?

Why do you refuse to answer this question? You seem to believe that rooting out problematic behavior is “success”.

IMO, any recovery, short of finding lasting peace in Christ is a faux recovery. It still leaves the person looking for more and searching for Christ. We can’t find true recovery unless we have found Christ. This is what the 12 Steps aims at. Any good recovery program MUST do the same, if they do not, then the person may stop their problematic behavoir, but they will have made little progress in finding the true peace and happiness that ONLY comes from Christ.