AA

[estesbob]

all i know is i cannot attend an a.a. meeting and acknowledge the Christ as my Lord and Savior .

I can not recall being to an AA where someone did not acknowledge Chris as their Lord and Savior.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can not recall being to an AA where someone did not acknowledge Chris as their Lord and Savior.

Bob,

You miss the point, as most 12 step disciples and addicts do. It is not about you. It is about someone saying…

"all i know is i cannot attend an a.a. meeting and acknowledge the Christ as my Lord and Savior . "

This is an expression of what someone other than yourself feels, believes and experiences and has nothing to do with your experience and negates what another person states. All I know. This is a statement of what is in that person’s head, not your head. I cannot attend. I cannot do something. You can but that does not equate to the world experience. It isn’t about you.

In defense of AA, I will say that you say whatever the heck you want at any meeting you go to. It is the most bizarre way of communicating on earth. Everyone sits in a circle and speaks in turn, unles you “double dip”.

One guy says, Christ is the reason I am sober
another then says, without this program I would be living under a tree
Another then tells of what their life was like before this program and what it it now
Another says, Buddha is their higher power
Another says that the Group of AA is their Higher Power

and

There are the senior guys looking for new guys to Sponsor, looking for pigeons

and

Men looking for women that are at their frailest

and if you to to NA

you will find pushers looking for buyers…

But you can say anything you want without restriction…

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Bob,

In defense of AA, I will say that you say whatever the heck you want at any meeting you go to. It is the most bizarre way of communicating on earth. Everyone sits in a circle and speaks in turn, unles you “double dip”.

One guy says, Christ is the reason I am sober
another then says, without this program I would be living under a tree
Another then tells of what their life was like before this program and what it it now
Another says, Buddha is their higher power
Another says that the Group of AA is their Higher Power

and

There are the senior guys looking for new guys to Sponsor, looking for pigeons

and

Men looking for women that are at their frailest

and if you to to NA

you will find pushers looking for buyers…

But you can say anything you want without restriction…

True. I was court ordered to a.a. for years. I hated it because hearing some of the more wacky people share in meeting really got annoying after awhile. Crazy stuff like alcoholics are Gods chosen people, that they were drinking againts their own will for years (So the devil made you do it? ) people exagerating how neccissary a.a. is for everyone to get sober (More people quit on their own despite what some a.a. fanatics believe) and so forth. Also some people do make a.a. their religion and I hated when they would assume it was mine too. Dont get me started on the stupid thought stopping slogans either… “It works if you work it” Well eating ice cream instead of drinking would also “Work if you work it” Oh well rant over

But I agree, you can talk about God and Jesus Christ in A.A. Some people just wont like it. But I never like what those people had to say either. I think a.a. is helpful for few, the majority, no.

 

[CopticChristian]

True. I was court ordered to a.a. for years. I hated it because hearing some of the more wacky people share in meeting really got annoying after awhile. Crazy stuff like alcoholics are Gods chosen people, that they were drinking againts their own will for years (So the devil made you do it? ) people exagerating how neccissary a.a. is for everyone to get sober (More people quit on their own despite what some a.a. fanatics believe) and so forth. Also some people do make a.a. their religion and I hated when they would assume it was mine too. Dont get me started on the stupid thought stopping slogans either… “It works if you work it” Well eating ice cream instead of drinking would also “Work if you work it” Oh well rant over

But I agree, you can talk about God and Jesus Christ in A.A. Some people just wont like it. But I never like what those people had to say either. I think a.a. is helpful for few, the majority, no.

Laughing,

Spend some time in the Catechism reading about the virtues Human and Theologic, then look at Gifts of the Spirit and Fruits of the Spirit and ask yourself…if you

Profess the Faith
Live the Sacramental Life
Model Christ
Pray

Is AA or any other such nonsense really necessary?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Laughing,

Spend some time in the Catechism reading about the virtues Human and Theologic, then look at Gifts of the Spirit and Fruits of the Spirit and ask yourself…if you

Profess the Faith
Live the Sacramental Life
Model Christ
Pray

Is AA or any other such nonsense really necessary?

I have read the Catechism cover to cover.

Is a.a. necessary? No, frankly it can dissapear tomorrow and it might bother some people but not me.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Its a good thing. Should people desire the support of AA and they stop drinking, then its a support group.

I’m not convinced anyone needs to continue to be a recovering addict, I would view full recovery as a yet. I believe there is a conditioning in this regard which many just come to accept. Seems that its concluded that addiction can’t be resolved. So there’s a couple grey areas.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

AA teaches newcomers that they can pick their own definition of a “higher power”, and that if they did not like the god they were taught about in childhood (if any), they can pick out one they like better, or just use “nature”, the AA group itself, or even a doorknob as a higher power. One man in the Big Book of AA used a bedpan. A sponsor from AA once told her sponsee that she was to write down all the qualities that she would like God to have if she could “invent a god”, and then once she had done so, she was told to “make that her new conception of god”.

AA’s program was based upon the theories of “The Oxford Group”, a religious group that met in one another’s homes and practiced certain doctrines that some feel were cultish. Bill Wilson was a member and took the 12 steps of AA directly from this group, altering them slightly for alcoholics.

They have members in AA from many different faiths, and some people tend to make AA their spiritual home rather than a church.

Boy, talk about superficial.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hes just a drink away tron returning to where he was 5 years ago]

So,

You believe that someone that has evidence of the fruits of the Spirit…

This is posted to you but any of the 12 step knowledgeable people can help out and agree or disagree…consider the following scenario…

Let us just say for discussion sake that someone drank, drank more, lost their job, their family, went to jail, stole, lied, manipulated people and was immodest, and finally went to AA. After 5 years this person turned their life around…this person now does the following….

**This person extends themselves regularly to people, loving them, volunteering, helping when asked and looking for ways to contribute and finding joy in doing it….

This person is no longer troubled by things that caused trouble in the past, has peace and not turmoil and deals with people with patience, they are kind to people and people like this person.

This person appears to be showing general goodness, is not selfish, does not steal, is generous and has a gentle manner as opposed to an angry temperament. The family can count on them as they are faithful to them and to others, a person of their word.

In their personal life rather than being worldly, they have found modesty and do not dress outlandish, exercise self control with the opposite sex and are models of a chaste life. People of the opposite sex trust this person and see a model of goodness and genuineness **

Is there agreement of diagreement that what I posted is a change in what was to a rehabilitated, recovered individual previously out of control?

What I have done is provided a Scenario that shows someone exhibiting Fruits of the Spirit that is declared to be one drink away…wow…

**1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112 **

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

So,

What I have done is provided a Scenario that shows someone exhibiting Fruits of the Spirit that is declared to be one drink away…wow…

A lot of a.a. fanatics think that if someone once had a problem with drinking and they stop and have one drink, it unleashes some kind of beast and they will not be able to control themselves after that.

I know a lot of people who are living proof that it is not at black and white as they think it is. Of course, most those fanatics would also say that anyone who can stop drinking without a.a. was never really a drunk to begin with. They should tell my Grandmother that my Grandpa was not really a drunk when he drank all those years because he stopped without aa. I bet she would have somthing to say about that

Im no fan of a.a. But I say if someone loves a.a. and its doctrine sooo much, I say let them have it and be thankful im no longer court ordered to go to a.a.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I can not recall being to an AA where someone did not acknowledge Chris as their Lord and Savior.

Do you mean that atleast one person has acknowledged Jesus as their savior at every a.a. meeting you have ever gone to? Or do you mean that you have never heard anyone in a.a. call anyone or anything other than Jesus their savior?

I have been to meetings where people went out of their way to declare that Christ IS NOT their higher power. Not to mention people using things like, a motorcycle, a fire extinguisher, a doorknob, a make believe god that looks like Pamela Anderson, as their higher powers. I am NOT making any of that up either.

 

[CopticChristian]

A lot of a.a. fanatics think that if someone once had a problem with drinking and they stop and have one drink, it unleashes some kind of beast and they will not be able to control themselves after that.

I know a lot of people who are living proof that it is not at black and white as they think it is. Of course, most those fanatics would also say that anyone who can stop drinking without a.a. was never really a drunk to begin with. They should tell my Grandmother that my Grandpa was not really a drunk when he drank all those years because he stopped without aa. I bet she would have somthing to say about that

Im no fan of a.a. But I say if someone loves a.a. and its doctrine sooo much, I say let them have it and be thankful im no longer court ordered to go to a.a.

Laughing Boy,

Sorry about the court order, however should it happen again, or you know of anyone that is facing this…you should know that you can express your constitutional right to say…

AA has been declared to be a religion and to force me to go violates the establishment clause, while I do not disagree with a court ordered aid, there are non-religious alternatives that include

SMART and I willingly allow you to order me to SMART meetings…and this would not impose any religion on me as noted by the Constitution of the United States.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Laughing Boy,

Sorry about the court order, however should it happen again, or you know of anyone that is facing this…you should know that you can express your constitutional right to say…

AA has been declared to be a religion and to force me to go violates the establishment clause, while I do not disagree with a court ordered aid, there are non-religious alternatives that include

SMART and I willingly allow you to order me to SMART meetings…and this would not impose any religion on me as noted by the Constitution of the United States.

Should it happen again??? I would take any amount of jail time and refuse meetings. I would literally rather go back to jail if that says anything. No more meetings. I liked the people I met in jail better anyways.

 

[GaryTaylor]

A lot of a.a. fanatics think that if someone once had a problem with drinking and they stop and have one drink, it unleashes some kind of beast and they will not be able to control themselves after that.

I know a lot of people who are living proof that it is not at black and white as they think it is. Of course, most those fanatics would also say that anyone who can stop drinking without a.a. was never really a drunk to begin with. They should tell my Grandmother that my Grandpa was not really a drunk when he drank all those years because he stopped without aa. I bet she would have somthing to say about that

Im no fan of a.a. But I say if someone loves a.a. and its doctrine sooo much, I say let them have it and be thankful im no longer court ordered to go to a.a.

This is common I would think.

 

[Mgray82]

Should it happen again??? I would take any amount of jail time and refuse meetings. I would literally rather go back to jail if that says anything. No more meetings. I liked the people I met in jail better anyways.

Haven’t been to jail since I’ve been in AA.

 

[CopticChristian]

Haven’t been to jail since I’ve been in AA.

Mgray,

That is wonderful. Just know that according to Estob…he says this…when considering someone that has done all the wonderful things and achieved all that can be acheived…

He’s just a drink away tron returning to where he was 5 years ago

So, it is possible you may be faced with this problem again. If that happens you have the right to excercise your rights to say that if offered jail or AA you have the right to oppose being sent to AA…this might broaden your experience and knowledge…

 

[CopticChristian]

Haven’t been to jail since I’ve been in AA.

Mgray,

I asked anyone to look at the postings in the following…585, 592, 593

In post 623 I pointed out that the posting in 593 was someone that exhibited fruits of the
Spirit and Estesbob says this person is one drink away from where they were 5 years ago…

This person that turned their life around did not do it on their own. They needed help. They talked to someone, let us say a Sponsor and that sponsor may eve be a priest. While doing what is necessary to cause a change they realized that what they knew about life formerly was not wise and in making decisions they learned that they had to have some understanding that they got through the process and with that understanding they gained some wisdom. This person also through working their program learned ways to act correctly, developed strength and assurance in their attitude to make sound decisions learning to properly judge right and wrong. They became able to overcome their fears. These fears previously were a source of discontent. They were arrogant at one time and learned to be humble and is approaching God…they saw a wonder and awe and a desire to please God, not wanting to offend God. These things are the result of the program. They knew that they could not change the past, but they could learn from it and the program and this realization caused the change.

I asked the following…

Would you agree at least in part that a program would cause someone to effect changes I described?

What this Scenario above outlines is the person that manifests the Gifts of the Spirit and as I pointed out the results are seen in the posting…585 someone that manifests the Fruits of the Spirit…

III. THE GIFTS AND FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.110
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.111

The person in post 585 with the Gifts of the Spirit, the program, has manifested the Fruits of the Spirit…

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112

This should cause pause as to the program outlined and why any other program is necessary…it is like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz…leaving looking for something was evident all along…

There is no place like home…

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Haven’t been to jail since I’ve been in AA.

I havent been to jail since I decided to live my life for God

 

[Mgray82]

I havent been to jail since I decided to live my life for God

Amen to that.

 

[CopticChristian]

I havent been to jail since I decided to live my life for God

Laughing Boy,

You may want to look at this. I heard it on the radio today and found the book. Someone with a sane head on their shoulder researched what I have been saying and put it in a book.

Interventions don’t work…they lead to AA
CRAFT does work

The problem with AA is if you fail, then there is something wrong with you not with the program and that is not true…

There are other ways like CBT, SMART, and many other ways that I have listed as the top 5 that this person points out…

Inside Addiction Treatment…

thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2013-02-11/inside-addiction-treatment

The book is

Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment-and How to Get Help That Works

Review of the Book…

I plan to make this book part of my library and continue to educate the public as this person has, in spite of all the resistance of 12 step disciples. I hope lurkers realize that there is real help beyond AA…

On average the US treatment system has a one-size-fits-all approach based on the 12-step approach to recovery. Some facilities do a good job, at a reasonable price, in providing this approach. However, most facilities suffer from under-qualified staff, failure to provide sufficient individualization of treatment, failure to provide the latest evidence-based practices, and failure to offer the client adequate information about treatment options. Among the evidence-based practices that are lacking are addiction medications (such as methadone or buprenorphine), which many facilities simply refuse to make available, inadequate assessment practices, and failure to include psychosocial approaches known to work while including others (e.g., confrontation) known to make people worse.

You may think Ms. Fletcher is exaggerating or misrepresenting what she found. Consider a statement in the Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment: Effective Alternatives (3rd ed., 2003, edited by Hester & Miller), in a chapter entitled “What Works? A Summary of Alcohol Treatment Outcome Research,” by Miller, Wilbourne and Hettema. They state that “the negative correlation between scientific evidence and treatment-as-usual remains striking, and could hardly be larger if one intentionally constructed treatment programs from those approaches with the least evidence of efficacy.” The 2nd edition of this book (1995) reached the same conclusion.

You can find this book on Amazon here…

amazon.com/Inside-Rehab-Surprising-Addiction-Treatment-/dp/0670025224%3FSubscriptionId%3D0EP44N4Z8Y93MBZ1ZC82%26tag%3Ddianerehm-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D0670025224

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Laughing Boy,

You may want to look at this. I heard it on the radio today and found the book. Someone with a sane head on their shoulder researched what I have been saying and put it in a book.

Interventions don’t work…they lead to AA
CRAFT does work

The problem with AA is if you fail, then there is something wrong with you not with the program and that is not true…

There are other ways like CBT, SMART, and many other ways that I have listed as the top 5 that this person points out…

Inside Addiction Treatment…

thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2013-02-11/inside-addiction-treatment

The book is

Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment-and How to Get Help That Works

Review of the Book…

I plan to make this book part of my library and continue to educate the public as this person has, in spite of all the resistance of 12 step disciples. I hope lurkers realize that there is real help beyond AA…

You can find this book on Amazon here…

amazon.com/Inside-Rehab-Surprising-Addiction-Treatment-/dp/0670025224%3FSubscriptionId%3D0EP44N4Z8Y93MBZ1ZC82%26tag%3Ddianerehm-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D0670025224

Thanks for the recommendation. I just want to put it all behind me. I dont care to read any books about addiction treatment 12 step or otherwise. I know where you are comming from though. I agree. I know that a lot of a.a. fanatics claim if someone fails in a.a. it is never the programs fault. They just claim the person did not work the program right. Or if you quit without a.a. it means you were never a alcoholic to begin with. If I hear a a.a. member atleast admit that a.a. is not the only way and may not even be the best way, I know they are atleast not fanatical.